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live life to the max
i formed a debate with a small number of youths about whether it was a good idea for youth to experience certain pleasures at least once and if when they become parents will they deprive/deny theor children of certain things which are seen in their best interests. for example here in australia alcohol and clubbing only becomes legal at the age of 18, one girl said that she would approve of her child experiencing such things once as part of their 18th celebration......
my opinion is this.........look around you........look at the drug users and club goers........observe and learn, dont make the same mistake........
but im interested to hear more views...........
my opinion is this.........look around you........look at the drug users and club goers........observe and learn, dont make the same mistake........
but im interested to hear more views...........
Comments
I absolutely agree with you. I don't think I myself will allow my children to try those pleasures for once. The ages "legitmatised" here, are only worldly to curb crimes, maybe give a feeling of freedom, but all in a worldly sense. I don't approve of these for my children.
I think it will be interesting to hear other members' views as well.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Allow me to play devil's advocate if I may. I see nothing wrong with young adults (note, I'm being specific here) experiencing certain things in life. What parents should aim for, is to give their children a solid foundation, morally, emotionally and spiritually. With this foundation, young adults should be free to decide what sorts of things they do or do not wish to be a part of, whether that involves clubbing or drinking (the two examples that were presented here). There are certain types of 'pleasures' which, if tried once, do not have lasting consequences. Kids should be taught what those 'pleasures' are and understand that moderation is important. Taking the extreme of anything is harmful and they should be aware of that. They should also be taught that certain actions result in specific consequences. Once they have that backing, let them do as they wish. You know the old adage, 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger'.
why do you make note to young adults? im refering to young teens. these are different age brackets and one would assume has matured and grown through experience. teens is about experimenting and both arguments put forward by urself and ophadece are quite strong. i agree we should be equiping them with skills to make informed decisions and become indepent but where will the line then be drawn.
'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger'. well you would alos know that 'all things may be lawful for me but not all things are helpful'. i would disagree with view that clubbing or drinking dont have lasting. ppl have died experimenting.......and are mentally scarrred......as ive stated our body was created by God, who are we to destroy it with alcohol and other drugs......what needs to be considered here is a balance, what pleasures can be experienced and what are endangering to ones health and safety.
The answer is usually "no". Then why do this yourself? follows the logical argument.
The reason is that "well, everyone does it". I think the problem here is raising your kids confidently enough to able to say something is wrong despite peer pressure.
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=5238.msg70270#msg70270 date=1177334500]
i formed a debate with a small number of youths about whether it was a good idea for youth to experience certain pleasures at least once and if when they become parents will they deprive/deny theor children of certain things which are seen in their best interests. for example here in australia alcohol and clubbing only becomes legal at the age of 18, one girl said that she would approve of her child experiencing such things once as part of their 18th celebration......
my opinion is this.........look around you........look at the drug users and club goers........observe and learn, dont make the same mistake........
but im interested to hear more views...........
I was having the same debate with some friends concerning sexual relations before marriage. They all said that if its consentual, then why not?
what about your values and morals??.........and consented by whom?? christianity does not support sex before marriage
the Holy Bible rejects sex outside of marriage. When two people are married, God joins the two and they become one body. But if the symbol and expression of that oneness is breached by having sex outside marriage, then, God becomes displeased.
St. Paul wrote, "Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For 'the two' He says, "shall become one flesh" (1 Cor 6:16). Indulging in the physical act of union where there is no marital oneness is a gross violation of God's holy design for sex. It is for this very reason that sex outside of marriage, (fornication and adultery), is condemned in Scripture. Scripture clearly warns us that fornicators and adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10). It is the Holy Spirit Who sanctifies the marriage bond so that it becomes a spiritual bond.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5238.msg70341#msg70341 date=1177413836]
The reason is that "well, everyone does it". I think the problem here is raising your kids confidently enough to able to say something is wrong despite peer pressure.
its more than peer pressure but an image or standard society has imposed through the media about what defines a relationship.....terms such as fridget arent encouraging for couples who which to pursue a paced relationship
As for the matter if it's ok to take part in such things.. in my oppinion.. NO. Anywhere that you cannot Invite Christ, is not a place to go. I can hardly see Jesus in such an environment.
I would like to comment on Cephas's views. I always think you are very reasonable in your views. However, I agree with you on one thing, and disagree on another. Yes, it is good for young adults (or even young teens) to have freedom and express their own beliefs, and be in control of their choices, but I disagree that they should try things out, just for the sake of getting stronger.
I myself consider clubbing a bad thing to do, but if my young teens go for it just once, then that is ok. I wouldn't call clubbing such a bad "pleasure". But other pleasures are only sins when performed out of context with the right timing. Such as masturbation, and sex before marriage (and please all forgive me for being very explicit). I wouldn't even let my son who is a mature adult go through these (obviously if I only find out about it).
So, I guess that goes with the views of kerestina, vassilios, and hizz_child.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
[coptic]+ Pi`<rictoc aftonf>[/coptic]
In my mind, the term 'youth' is typically reserved for young adults. And the fact that you spoke about 18 year olds in particular in Australia, I just assumed that was the age range you were talking about. When you speak of young teens, are you refering to the 12-16 years of age range?
sorry mate, my bad, in my work we usually define young people as 12-25yr olds which is a broad age bracket, but i think of young adults as 18+,maybe even 20, who have probably past experimental stage.ive confused myself thinking about ages, but the kids i was talking to were between 12-15. out of the six, two wanted to experience smoking and alcohol etc at least once, the rest through personal experiences saw the damage addiction can bring........
i see three outcomes from experimentaion;
1) DEATH
2) NEVER AGAIN
3) YEARN FOR MORE AND BECOME ADDICTED
God bless and take care
They don't realise that their particular way of "living life to the max" has resulted in catastrophic , awful and disasterous things.
I know one girl who wants to "live life to the max" and has said this. Her interpretation of this is to sleep with every guy that she likes or whom she is attracted to. This is living life to the max for her. God is not in the picture, and also its not a subject that makes her interested. What will happen is the effect of her actions will surely reach her one day. I truley believe that God's commandments were for my benefit, and struggling to live in His laws are for my benefit. She will have a heavy price to pay when she has children. She doesnt see herself now as a mother, nor her potential to be a mother. Just as a young girl who wants to enjoy life. God sees us in our potential. He sees that each of us would regret our actions when we realise the impact our sins would have had on our Children. We don't see that now, but it will catch up to you when you yourselves have kids.
Believe me, those who live life to the max doing things outside of God's embrace are blind. Totally blind. If they wrote down and just looked at the statement carefully that exited their mouths , they'd realise they've allowed themselves to become prostitutes and adulteres. Is this living life to the max?
The 60% divorce rate in the UK , England and wales... the broken homes, the rise in AIDS, the 50% and above divorce rate in France - are these people trying to live life to the max??
I leave you with one final thought. A samaritan woman also was trying to "live life to the max". Christ could see that. He said "The man you are with is not even your husband" ; and His answer to her was this: "I'll give you water that will never make you thirst". These people are doing things in their life because , i feel they are thirsty for something. Something that can never be quenched by what this world has to offer. Its through having abundance of the Holy Spirit in one's heart that we are truley satisfied. What is greater than this?!
Solomon said "I did not leave or neglect any of the desires that caught my eye, whatever they desired, I gave it to them, it was like grasping for the wind with my hands... its all vanity". This is wisdom speaking.. he is telling us that in quantity and in quality of possession there is no satisfaction, its only vanity; what then was solomon searching for , or trying to fulfill in him by acquiring all these possessions???
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5238.msg70374#msg70374 date=1177450640]
Dear all,
I would like to comment on Cephas's views. I always think you are very reasonable in your views. However, I agree with you on one thing, and disagree on another. Yes, it is good for young adults (or even young teens) to have freedom and express their own beliefs, and be in control of their choices, but I disagree that they should try things out, just for the sake of getting stronger.
I myself consider clubbing a bad thing to do, but if my young teens go for it just once, then that is ok. I wouldn't call clubbing such a bad "pleasure". But other pleasures are only sins when performed out of context with the right timing. Such as masturbation, and sex before marriage (and please all forgive me for being very explicit). I wouldn't even let my son who is a mature adult go through these (obviously if I only find out about it).
So, I guess that goes with the views of kerestina, vassilios, and hizz_child.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
[coptic]+ Pi`<rictoc aftonf>[/coptic] This is a fantastic paragraph. This truly does sum up what it means to live to the max and how skewed society's views have become regarding what it means to be free and live life to the max. Fantastic post vassilios.
Thanks Knfoc,
I just wish to add ONE thing:
THe prodigal son, when he left his father found himself wishing to eat the food of pigs.
The food described was pods. It is a type of vegetation, that really has not much nutritional value in fact, and its used to fill the stomach. You eat it, and afterwards, you are still hungry. This is the food the world gives. No matter how much u eat of it, you are always left empty inside.
We were not made for pods; but what happens is that this is a way for us to become closer to God.
As the prodigal son himself realised that he was treated more respectfully in the shadow of his father's love, that it was better for him to be in that position rather than free and eating pods.
THe strange thing, with the prodigal son was that he was living with pigs, and wishing to eat from their food. People also do not realise how low their desires of "living life to the max" has taken them.
I'm writing this for one reason. I know many people who have found God because of this very reason. When they wake up and come to themselves, they realise shockingly how much they were deceived by the false sense of freedom the devil led them to believe they had. This "false" sense of freedom is one where u think u can behave like a prostitute but not feel like one, u can lie all you like but not feel like a lier... people wake up and realise all of a sudden how degrading their false sense of freedom has led them, and do return to Christ, who truley is waiting for their return....
Even if it was just an experiment to go, there is alawys something that is going to be harmfull whether mentaly, spiritualy, sexualy, etc...
Also, it depends on the person him/her self. If he/she is a good christian and god is his/her #1 priory then places like clubs are no place to go, because of the Coptic Orthodox traditions and our morals.
It is like Prom in HighSchool. I didn't go to neither my Senior nor Junior yr Prom!
Also, it is like Dating and having boyfriends/girlfriends.
If we are going to try one thing and test it like it is no big deal, then we are going to try something that is bigger like dating, and then something even bigger like sex before marriage and so on. At first it may seem like we should try it for experiance so we can learn, and then we tell ourselves to try something else for the same reason "EXPERIANCE"
pray for me,
bentBABAyasooa`
I would like to thank vassilios so much. He is very concise, and well spoken. Be careful of self-praise satan.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Well I've decided that I'm going to be rather strict on my children when they're young, building a good foundation of the church in their hearts.. And as they grow older.. simply make my views heard.. and let them make their own decisions.. at 18, it would seem old enough.. I mean I wouldn't approve of them going 'clubbing' but I wouldn't restrict them.. If they decide to take part in such a 'pleasure', then I would simply pray for them and ask God not to make it too appealing in their eyes, so it's not hard to recognise it's not the best thing to do.
As for the matter if it's ok to take part in such things.. in my oppinion.. NO. Anywhere that you cannot Invite Christ, is not a place to go. I can hardly see Jesus in such an environment.
Very powerful statement.
God bless you.
Being baptised orthodox and living a life of church services and holy communion is NOT orthodoxy at all. These are some of the important practices of the orthodox christian life.
The most important attribute of the orthodox christian is 'love'. Unconditional unwavering 'love'...or as we say True love... for God in Jesus, for others then ourselves.
If we thus 'truely' love God than why do we lust for sin at all?
And if we 'truely' love God than why do we accept sin in our lives in the face of Him?
Why do the fornicator and the adulterer love thier sin? Because thier sins are payment for the lusts of their lives. It is their just reward.
Why would anyone who 'truely loves' God look for payment in the form of sin for the actions we take?
Orthodox christians are looking for absolution, salvation ...forgiveness from our acts in our lives. What KInd of life is that?
Penitent....... a life of penitance.
We live penitent lives. Thats why we are not interested in lust. We ask the Lord to "lead us not into temptation". Because we know we have given our lives to him.
If a person finds it O K to lust and be lead by his temptations than he has clearly fallen from grace and is entering a life that leads to death. This person needs a priest.
God help us all
Dear all,
I would like to thank vassilios so much. He is very concise, and well spoken. Be careful of self-praise satan.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
All blessings, praise and glory should be addressed to Our Lord Jesus Christ.
I'm just someone who happened to witness the effects of eating "pods".
i would never allow them to enjoy the sinfuil things in life
also, i think if u try something once they r going to be addicted to them...so they r going to want more and more from it
hope i helped
EgY
I would personally allow and expose my children, friend’s children’s and all children around me to grow in God, in Love of God and to seek God in as much as close to perfection as possible. As this is done so I will also encourage them to achieve success in the grace and help of GOD for the glory of GOD. After all the earth was created for us. Yet in their own age in secret they can do what they want. Those things that are in my power and are clearly by the word of God and his saints and from those who are elect of God that will ruin the life of my kids and separate them from presence of God I will limit. I would response to my son/daughter I will say and teach them why I have limited them from what ever it is. when they are legally old and they desire to do what perhaps I say is not good then I would allow it but also let them know my disappointment for losing a crown then but that doesn’t mean I will rebuke them for who am I to rebuke them I will stand by them protecting them and praying for them as much as possible. Hopefully the child will realise the truth and come back,
When my daughter/son is a man/woman is it say around the age of being legal all I have to say;
[Centre] work out urn own salvation with fear and trembling [/centre]
From hear I can guide but they are responsible for their actions. Before the throne of God I dint have to make a decision for them but only guide agree/not agree wit them
As far as trying things for once I will tell u all a story u might have heard of this before.
A young man who walked in the fear of God living in the world where he was successful and lived in the city; was granted the blessed life of strife to become a monk. He started his life in the monastery far away from all cities in the desert away from all of the city distractions.
In his life there were many things he had abstained himself from. For example he had abstained from sexual relationships but not all.....
After some years of being novice he became a monk. And thus came forth many wars came from the devil. amongst them that brought him down in so much strife and pain that he sobbed to his confession father saying; my father when I was in the world I did not sin even though I could I did not have any sexual relations and so forth but there was one thing I failed in and now it seems the devil will claim my soul for this desire alone. His confession father asked him what is it my son.
He said when I was young I went to the night club ones to see to experience what it was like. I did not commit sin that night neither did I return to that place again for I knew the acts of those there in were against God (I guess u can call it the "first time experience") in the club I saw many things amongst which were young woman so indecently dressed dancing on the dance floor.*(like a strip club) At that time I had walked past them without the desire to posses them. It did not trouble me much at all. but now my father the thought and pictures of them burns in my mind like red hot iron and I burn with desire to sin I struggle for I know the truth yet the devil never stops from troubling me with these thoughts in war.
Hope thats worth a penny.
Very sad story. What made the monk go to a nightclub? or did i not understand the story correctly? He was a young man before being a monk and he went to a nightclub? What was his sin actually?
You know, it seems we've kept all 10 commandments except Adultary. In this sin, we have other sins such as fornication, lust, and despising of yourself. Its the ONLY sin that today's society has abolished.
Sexual immorality is sold to us today as "sexual fun". The word immorality is removed, as if it itself is a bad word.
We should all pray that through God's grace we have the strength to live in Purity actually.