Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
Heavenly mother as God??
There was a woman who came to my door and began to talk about the “Heavenly mother” mentioning her 2 main points.
(1) God is both Male and Female:
Using the verse in Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness…” and in Genesis 1:27 “so God created man in His own image; of God He created him; male and female He created them.” (God created Adam and Eve), interpreting it that God is both male and female, and mentioning that we are familiar with Heavenly Father but we forget “our” Heavenly mother” who is considered “God”. She then began to read small verses from certain places in the Bible talking about the Heavenly mother or the bride.
I then told her that God has no gender because He is in the form of Spirit. At which she responded to me to prove it using the Bible.
What does the Bible mean by OUR and US when referring to God in Gen. 1:26? ???
(2) Only the Father and the Mother can give us eternal life:
She said: Just as we came in to this world with both our earthly parents (father and mother), we will also be able to enter into the eternal life through our heavenly father and mother. She then began to say that, quoting from Revelations 22:17 “and the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let him who hears say ‘Come!’ And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” And in this passage she said that only the Heavenly father (Spirit) and the Heavenly mother (bride) can give us eternal life (water of life).
I am going to meet with her again and I need to be ready. Now I am not trying to bash her faith or even try to convert her, but to let her know what we as Coptic Christians believe.
Essentially I need help in finding verses from the Bible to let her understand that we do not have a “Heavenly mother” who is considered “God”.
I also need to help interpreting what is meant by the verses that she used above, to what we as Coptic Christians believe.
Thanks a bunch and GB :)
(1) God is both Male and Female:
Using the verse in Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness…” and in Genesis 1:27 “so God created man in His own image; of God He created him; male and female He created them.” (God created Adam and Eve), interpreting it that God is both male and female, and mentioning that we are familiar with Heavenly Father but we forget “our” Heavenly mother” who is considered “God”. She then began to read small verses from certain places in the Bible talking about the Heavenly mother or the bride.
I then told her that God has no gender because He is in the form of Spirit. At which she responded to me to prove it using the Bible.
What does the Bible mean by OUR and US when referring to God in Gen. 1:26? ???
(2) Only the Father and the Mother can give us eternal life:
She said: Just as we came in to this world with both our earthly parents (father and mother), we will also be able to enter into the eternal life through our heavenly father and mother. She then began to say that, quoting from Revelations 22:17 “and the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let him who hears say ‘Come!’ And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” And in this passage she said that only the Heavenly father (Spirit) and the Heavenly mother (bride) can give us eternal life (water of life).
I am going to meet with her again and I need to be ready. Now I am not trying to bash her faith or even try to convert her, but to let her know what we as Coptic Christians believe.
Essentially I need help in finding verses from the Bible to let her understand that we do not have a “Heavenly mother” who is considered “God”.
I also need to help interpreting what is meant by the verses that she used above, to what we as Coptic Christians believe.
Thanks a bunch and GB :)
Comments
yea i told her that Our and Us refers to the Holy Trinity, but we both agreed that they are ONE, thus would not be referred as Us or Our. I had a feeling that Our and Us is the Holy Trinity, but is there any proof of that in the Bible other than just saying the "Holy Trinity"?
By the way, if any of you can give me referrences on this topic using any trusted articles (say by H.H or anyone else) that would be great too.
Any of your own personal insights is helpful as well, feel free to comment suggest and discuss. :) This would be for my knowledge.
But i mainly want to use the Holy Bible since she (person who knocked on my door) believes in it.
Thanks again jydeacon.
As I'm sure we all will agree, God is Spirit. Being spirit, God is neither male nor female. He is not confined to a sex per se. He has chosen to reveal Himself in the masculine (i.e. at the Incarnation with Christ becoming a man) and Christ repeatedly refers to the Father (without ever referring to a Mother). So that we can make Him more personal, we often apply the masculine pronoun to God, but the reality is God is sexless. Let's face it, using 'He' and 'Him' is a lot more personal than saying 'It'. Sex is a physical characteristic and thus, does not apply to God. The only time the feminine is used is when, as jydeacon pointed out, the pronoun is used to refer to the Church, which is the Bride of Christ. The Bible is really all you need to adequately illustrate this.
if so...ok...let's say I say Church, she says mother. How do we as Coptic Christians understand the word "bride" to mean "church"?
GB.
In general, in the NT, whenever you see the word 'bride' it does in fact refer to the Church. Take a look at Ephesian 5 to see how Paul compares married couples to Christ and the Church. That could help you with your argument.
Regards
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5242.msg70318#msg70318 date=1177377495]
[coptic]+ Pi`<rictoc aftonf>[/coptic]
As I'm sure we all will agree, God is Spirit. Being spirit, God is neither male nor female. He is not confined to a sex per se. He has chosen to reveal Himself in the masculine (i.e. at the Incarnation with Christ becoming a man) and Christ repeatedly refers to the Father (without ever referring to a Mother). So that we can make Him more personal, we often apply the masculine pronoun to God, but the reality is God is sexless. Let's face it, using 'He' and 'Him' is a lot more personal than saying 'It'. Sex is a physical characteristic and thus, does not apply to God. The only time the feminine is used is when, as jydeacon pointed out, the pronoun is used to refer to the Church, which is the Bride of Christ. The Bible is really all you need to adequately illustrate this.
You should be careful dealing with this person.
It is commonplace in some Protestant circles to preach what is called a 'feminist theology' - i.e. 'God the Mother' - often called 'Sophia' or 'Mother of Holy Wisdom'; this is heretical.
Sorry to be so blunt, but let me explain why.
The Protestant habit of going to the Bible and reading texts out of context is why there are thousands of Protestant sects; if you do it that way, everybody had his or her own 'interpretation'; in the Orthodox Church we do it differently.
In the first place we recognise that the Bible comes out the context of the early Church, which decided which books were Orthodox and which were not; to read the Bible away from the tradition of the Church is to fall into error. This is what this woman and those like her have done.
At no point has the Orthodox Church preached 'God the Mother'. Our Lord, the Incarnate Word, speaks of 'My father' and taught us to pray 'Our Father'; had it been otherwise, we should have been told to pray 'Our Father and Mother'; we were not, and there is no warrant in our Church's teaching for so doing.
Indeed, since the Church is the 'bride' of Christ, and female, it would be a bit weird if Christ, being of one substance with the Father, were also female; although you may laugh, there are some feminist historians who argue that as a justification for their chosen life-style.
You should explain to this woman that her teachings are founded upon her own limited intellect and experience, whilst you follow the teachings of a Church founded upon nearly two thousand years of history and theology. If in all that time only a group of western feminists have seen this 'truth', then it is no truth at all. These same people will tell you that there is good argument here for women priests. Again, there is no tradition of this, or acceptance of such an idea in the early Church, or in all subsequent Orthodox thinking.
It is characteristic of the arrogance of modern men and women to think that the Church should change to fit their requirements and view, rather than that they should repent and be shaped by the Church and its teaching.
Who founded her Church? Jesus Christ founded our Church, and through St. Mark we have received the fulness of the Faith. If this woman dislikes that, she is at liberty to say whatever she likes - but not to call it Orthodox Christianity.
As I say, I think you would be wise not to have too much to do with her. But if you want to engage in discussion read something like Fr. Markos R. Hanna's 30 Differences and 300 answers Theological and Dogmatic Differences between Orthodox and Protestants
But do remember, these people are well-trained in how to try to shake the Faith of others - just stick to the fact that you have to read the Bible in the context of the universal teaching of the Church. She will disagree and say that the Bible is the inerrant word of God; we don't disagree, but say it is inerrant in part because the Spirit guided the early Church into discerning what was and was not canonical.
Sorry if this is a bit long, and I hope it isn't too technical. Do talk to your priest if this woman's questioning disturbs you - but most of all lean on the two thousand year old wisdom of your Church.
In Christ,
John
If that woman would read further down in Gensis, she would realize that God Created ADAM first then He said "it is not good to have Adam by himself" so Eve was created AFTER Adam, who was created on the Image of God.
Also, God is a spirit, He has no physical attributes. That also means that He doesn't have arms, legs, etc... These are the clay that He used to create Adam.
God used 'Us' and 'We' for several reasons:
1) He wanted to make sure we understand that the Trinity has been around since the beginning of Time (or before that) if He would say 'I' all the time, then people may doubt the Trinity ever existed.
2) In some languages, including Arabic and Aramiac, the term 'us' is used to indicate glory. The king, for example would say "WE Decided" even though he came up with the decision to add glory to himself. God, of course has all the Glory and linguistically speaking that was used to illustrate that.
The Term bride in the Bible refers to two things:
1) The human spirit: as in songs of Solmon, he is talking to His bride, or God is talking to the human spirit as His bride
2) The Church: as in revelation the church (the bride) is calling on her children to come and drink.
Finally, repeatedly in the Old Testement, God would refer to Himself as Jehova, or Yahwa or to say "I am HIM"
Let us not be decieved by all these different Ideologies that are meant to deviate us from our True Orthodox Faith. I do agree with Anglican, do not engage in conversations with these people because they are trained to shake your faith. Know enough to defend your faith or refer her to someone who does, like your local priest.
Thanks again and pls pray for me :)
GB.
Hope i helped,
GBU
put simply
1. us = Holy trinity
2. Bride = is the church
and lastly - dont talk to this lady - the Pope said we shudnt let these ppl in our homes - refer her to the church or to abouna - or maybe when u meet her if u persist get abouna to be there - ok!
Kristina123
and lastly - dont talk to this lady - the Pope said we shudnt let these ppl in our homes - refer her to the church or to abouna - or maybe when u meet her if u persist get abouna to be there - ok!
hello,
why not talk to her?? i mean you may not listen to her but we do not live in a christian society, non-christians with their own explanation of life and religion live all around us, whats the difference? how about you think of the difference you can make by sharing your thoughts on the true faith..wherez tha luvin gurl???
God bless n take care
well i have heard on several occassions the Pope saying that we shouldnt let these people into our homes
i believe the rationale behind that is that we are not strong in our faith and we dont know the ins and outs of all the basis to our beliefs etc therefore we become easily fooled or convinced for want of a bette word
hence it can be quite dangerous
Kristina123
These people that come knocking on ur door are trained and correct me if im wrong but some of them are paid!
people as in friends etc there is n othing wrong with talkin to or preaching to - these people door knockers poise an obvious danger in that they are trained to not only preach but somehow draw people to their sects etc
if you know what i mean!
Kristina123
I suspect Kristina's concern is well-placed. As she says, there are people who are trained in techniques designed to unsettle people who are not used to their style of argument.
The very moment anyone says 'show me where it says that in the Bible?' then we are usually in the presence of a Protestant 'missionary'. The sad truth is that some Protestants regard the Coptic Orthodox Church as a fertile ground for their efforts. They know our people read their Bibles, but they also suppose that many do not have a sophisticated grasp of the technicalities of arguing about it; this they use to argue that their understanding of the Faith is somehow more 'valid' than ours; the fact that they often have western-style publicity and follow-up makes them dangerous, I fear.
The short argument to them is that the Bible as we have it was the product of the early Church, whose teachings we have kept to this day; we interpret scripture according to nearly two thousand years of teaching, and therefore are sceptical of claims of 'Churches' which are a good deal younger and have no Apostolic succession; it doesn't mean we would wish to disrespect them - just to say that they disrespect us by trying to unsettle our people.
The Copts were Christians when what is now 'the west', America and Russia were all sunk in paganism; they are still Christians, and don't, with all due respect, need 'refresher' courses from those whose ancestors were bowing down before pagan idols when the Copts were propounding the mysteries of the Holy Trinity. The Church which produced monasticism, which produced Athansius and St. Cyril of Alexandria, and which has produced Pope Shenouda III does not have need of Protestant 'help'.
If Protestants want someone to 'convert' they could try coming to the UK, which is pretty much a heathen country nowadays - there's plenty of business for them here - but leave the Copts alone.
In Christ,
John
[coptic]+ Pi`<rictoc aftonf>[/coptic] Just for my own clarification here; are you implying that only Adam was created in the image of God and not Eve?
Not really, that is not what I meant. This is a response to her in the order of creation and not who is not created on God's imiage. If God has no physical apperance, than man or woman wouldn't make a difference. Besides, following logic, If Adam is on the image of God and Eve is created from one of Adam's ribs, then Eve is created based on the image of God.
Hope this clarifies things...
Thanks for the clarification. The statement was worded a bit funny, which is why I was just curious.
We must remember that western secular ideas such as feminism get applied to the Faith in the west (and elsewhere). This attempt to construct a Church in our image is a sign of the sin of pride. Although we are made in the image of God, that image is marred and obscured by sin, so to attempt to make a Church in that image is to construct an idol of our fallen self.
What the one Holy and Apostolic Church offers is an image of the Church He creates for us so that, by adapting to it, we may become more like Him; that is why we have to adapt ourselves to its teachings - not its teachings to us.
Hope that helps.
In Christ,
John
[quote author=Kristina123 link=topic=5242.msg70387#msg70387 date=1177493584]
and lastly - dont talk to this lady - the Pope said we shudnt let these ppl in our homes - refer her to the church or to abouna - or maybe when u meet her if u persist get abouna to be there - ok!
hello,
why not talk to her?? i mean you may not listen to her but we do not live in a christian society, non-christians with their own explanation of life and religion live all around us, whats the difference? how about you think of the difference you can make by sharing your thoughts on the true faith..wherez tha luvin gurl???
God bless n take care
Please do not dispute instructions from the Pope or any Abauna at any time or for any reason. It is best to ask them for more advise if you are not clear on something; but do not dispute.
Please note the following reading from the Holy scriptures:
Book 53: 2 Thessalonians
Chapter 3 Verses 10 to 15
003:010 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
003:011 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
003:012 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
003:013 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
003:014 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
003:015 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.