Dear All,
I have an issue that's disturbing me:
The Church is the bride of Christ - isnt it?
If the churches are not united, then it would mean that Christ has 2 brides... that's not possible!!!
It means only One Church is the true bride. Christ cannot have 2 bride!?
But, if we are the true bride , it means all the catholics and protestants are living in spiritual adultary? But the Holy Spirit is also with them... we know this, they have great saints...
Please advise,
Thanks
Comments
The Church is the bride of Christ - isnt it?
If the churches are not united, then it would mean that Christ has 2 brides... that's not possible!!!
It means only One Church is the true bride. Christ cannot have 2 bride!?
well yes it's not possible which means that there is one bride. that bride is the Orthodox church of God that didn't change since it was established by the apostles. yes i think ur rit about the spiritual adultry.
about the Holy Spirit..........the Holy Spirit is given to the person and that person have to let It work in him. we all have the Holy Spirit in us through baptism but we have to let it work in and through us to lead to the right way to heaven. also since we get we get the Holy Spirit through baptism and and chrismation, protestants wouldn't have the Holy Spirit. another reason is that they don't have priests. that mean everyone is the same. in our church, to give the Holy Spirit you have to have It in you. that's why the priest baptiss the person and give the Holy Spirit to that person.
the symbol of a bride is that she shouldnt have another man and be honest to him and is "underneath" the man....and so on
it shows that the church and christ are together and dont "split"...so we are together with him as we are the church...a church without people is no church....
the church is a comunity so we have to stay united or have to get united or whatever...we have to be with those who need us...as we need our lord jesus christ
so the bride is a symbol for the conection between the heaven and the earth...
if i am wrong with my opinion so please say it
pray for me cause i need ur prayer
peace be with u (friede sei mit euch)
aripsalin
This is a very interesting series of questions and I'd like to take a stab at them if I may.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5352.msg71292#msg71292 date=1179933937]
The Church is the bride of Christ - isnt it?
Yes, this is true. The Church is the Bride of Christ. The Church is also referred to as the Body of Christ as well. One thing to understand is that the Church is not a building, but is made up of the communion of believers sharing, as St. Paul says, 'One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism'.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5352.msg71292#msg71292 date=1179933937]
If the churches are not united, then it would mean that Christ has 2 brides... that's not possible!!!
Now here is where I disagree. Just because the churches are not united does not mean that Christ has 2 (or 3 or any other multiple) brides. There is only one Church and thus there will only ever be one bride of Christ.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5352.msg71292#msg71292 date=1179933937]
But, if we are the true bride , it means all the catholics and protestants are living in spiritual adultary? But the Holy Spirit is also with them... we know this, they have great saints...
Now here you touch upon a subject that I don't think anyone will ever be able to fully answer. Are Catholics and Protestants living in spiritual adultery? I don't think we can say that. Are they lacking the Holy Spirit in them? Again, I don't think we can say that. What the Church teaches us is that grace and the sacraments are only valid and efficacious within the Church. We know that we receive the Holy Spirit through the sacraments of Baptism and Chrismation. Furthermore, we believe that the Orthodox church is the one true Church which can administer these sacraments. Thus, we believe that only those in the Orthodox church validly have the Holy Spirit in them. This does not mean, however, that those outside the Orthodox church do not have the Holy Spirit. God saves whomever He wills, and administers grace and salvation to whomever He will. Thus, whether those outside the Church are committing spiritual adultery or not cannot be determined by any of us. We do not know who is 'outside the Church'. We do know that the Orthodox are 'in the Church'.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5352.msg71292#msg71292 date=1179933937]
If the churches are not united, then it would mean that Christ has 2 brides... that's not possible!!!
Now here is where I disagree. Just because the churches are not united does not mean that Christ has 2 (or 3 or any other multiple) brides. There is only one Church and thus there will only ever be one bride of Christ.
how do you explain the saparations of the church and the corruption of some of them?
I fully agree with you. but i think that last question can be answered here: Deal or No Deal?; a group of sermons that Prove that we, the Apostalic Orthodox Chrurch, are the original church of Jesus Christ. that doesn't mean where the only one who'll be saved....but means who ever is in it and who ever will join it will be judged righteouslly and justlly from God.
Any 'church' that has separated from the Church would not constitute being the Bride of Christ as this 'church' is no longer a part of the Church. If you think of the Church as a tree, any branch that breaks off of that tree could be viewed as one of these separated 'churches'. Since it is no longer a part of the tree, it is nothing and cannot be viewed as a tree by itself. It is merely a broken branch and nothing more. One thing we all need to realize is that churches will inevitably face corruption. Even the Coptic church is not immune to corruption, and this is simply because the Church is comprised of humans, and humans are corruptible. Please note, I'm not saying that the Church is corrupt, but people in the Church can be corrupt and it can have a negative impact on others.
thanks for clearfing. very understandable. yes. that was when i first wrote mistakllly. but look at it again, i edited after i posted it.
great to know your follwing that fast.. :)
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5352.msg71308#msg71308 date=1179951277]
yes. that was when i first wrote mistakllly. but look at it again, i edited after i posted it.
great to know your follwing that fast.. :)
I try. :D
Our ecclesiology (doctrine of the Church) says there is only one Church - and we are it. The Eastern Orthodox we regard, I think, as in separation from us, but as inheriting the Apostolic faith; the unity talks have revealed how much we hold in common, even after so long apart. Many EO reject this view and think we are schismatics; they are, of course, entitled to their view; even if we think it very wrong.
The question of the nature and boundaries of the Church is something we have tried to get into on another thread here. For us, the fulness of the Faith is preserved in our Church - and the EO are close enough to continue talking. Catholics are a little further away - they have added quite a bit to the Faith. Protestants are further away from us still.
In the past these divisions have led to great harm. We should be glad that Our Lord's grace and salvation are granted as He wills it, not as our logic and ecclesiology would suggest; He is not bound by our logic. However, if we view the Church as a spiritual hospital - we think our hospital is the best one to be in. But we should not be arrogant; we are all sinners and in need of redemption. Our fellow Christians can set us an example of piety and work for the Lord that we would do well to heed; but we also have much to offer them. If we could just learn a little more about each other, we might yet set an example to the world - what must non-Christians think when they see so many of us arguing with each other.
As a convert to Orthodoxy, I firmly believe that I am in the best hospital, and would like others to receive the care which I get; but I am also glad they are being cared for in their own hospitals. God alone decides our fate; let us believe and trust in Him - and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well.
In Christ,
John
Catholics / Western Orthodox / Protestants /Anglicans /Presbytarians /Lutherans / Adventists/ Episcopals etc are ALL EXCOMMUNICATED from us. It means that we and them do not share the same faith. We are ONE church by what? By our faith. So, how can they be the bride of Christ, and we are also the bride of Christ??
That's the 1st point: we are ONE CHurch in Faith, if we do not share the same faith, then we are no longer one Church. Christ is the sole groom for a sole bride that has been faithful to HIS teachings.
Secondly, We are excommunicated from one another. This means that we do NOT recognise their baptism(s). That means that when they baptise, they may think they have the Holy Spirit abiding in them, but they don't. is that a fair statement?
We don't accept their baptism. THat's because we don't accept their faith. The word "excommunicated" means exactly that: "ex" = outside and "communicated" = community. They are outside the community /body of Christ, therefore, we are still considering ourselves the true "body" of christ . That MUST be the logical conclusion.
These are VERY VERY HURTFUL things to say!!!! That our catholic brethern are living in spiritual adultary.... its awful...
Its awful that we've allowed Christ to have 2 brides... this is NOT HIS will!!! His will was that we are united and ONE. "That they may be One".
We are NOT UNITED... we are NOT ONE, and the leaders of our Church have to do more to help this situation. The hardest and WORST part of all this is as follows:
a) Within the catholic Church, there exists 1000's of different communities. Within them, you have the Catholics, then the Traditionalists (excommunicated with the mainstream catholic Church and do not recognise Vatican II), the Charismatics, the VERY Charismatics
b) The protestants: this is a real indian movie!! They have 100000000000000's of different denominations. They are even divided amongst themselves.
c) The anglicans: they are the funniest: they don't even know whether homosexuality is right or wrong... and are STILL debating this... LOL
O Lord of armies, behold and look at this vine, that which Your RIght Hand has planted!! It is burnt and weak, affirm and straighten her....
That verse from the Pslams comes to my mind when I see this situation. Its a scandal to be in this situation. We've embarassed Our Saviour in this way....
THe worst part of the division is this: Its true we should be ONE in faith, and I agree, that if the catholics have nullified limbo, then what else will they nullify in the future? Why did they even bother adding it... they are now distancing themselves from this theory... and rather than calling it a dogma (which is how they presented it) - they are calling it a theory. THIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM for me (!!). The problem is how can we be united with a church that's OK to ordain and promote homosexual clergy???
Even the catholics.. they are so dispersed and disorientated with respect to their own values. Priests will REFUSE to say fornication is wrong so they don't offend people living in fornication. This is typical French Catholic!! lol
Funny bunch...
But, the Holy Spirit is STILL in these Churches... we know it because of the fruits of their acts. So, given that the Holy Spirit abides in them, should this NOT mean that we should also be humble with our knowledge - i.e. thinking that we have the right faith is GREAT, but we shouldnt excommunicate a Church for this???? THe only reason to excommunicate a Church is for changing right to wrong and wrong to right... as far as I can see... i could be wrong, someone else can answer.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5352.msg71304#msg71304 date=1179949418]
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
This is a very interesting series of questions and I'd like to take a stab at them if I may.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5352.msg71292#msg71292 date=1179933937]
The Church is the bride of Christ - isnt it?
Yes, this is true. The Church is the Bride of Christ. The Church is also referred to as the Body of Christ as well. One thing to understand is that the Church is not a building, but is made up of the communion of believers sharing, as St. Paul says, 'One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism'.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5352.msg71292#msg71292 date=1179933937]
If the churches are not united, then it would mean that Christ has 2 brides... that's not possible!!!
Now here is where I disagree. Just because the churches are not united does not mean that Christ has 2 (or 3 or any other multiple) brides. There is only one Church and thus there will only ever be one bride of Christ.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5352.msg71292#msg71292 date=1179933937]
But, if we are the true bride , it means all the catholics and protestants are living in spiritual adultary? But the Holy Spirit is also with them... we know this, they have great saints...
Now here you touch upon a subject that I don't think anyone will ever be able to fully answer. Are Catholics and Protestants living in spiritual adultery? I don't think we can say that. Are they lacking the Holy Spirit in them? Again, I don't think we can say that. What the Church teaches us is that grace and the sacraments are only valid and efficacious within the Church. We know that we receive the Holy Spirit through the sacraments of Baptism and Chrismation. Furthermore, we believe that the Orthodox church is the one true Church which can administer these sacraments. Thus, we believe that only those in the Orthodox church validly have the Holy Spirit in them. This does not mean, however, that those outside the Orthodox church do not have the Holy Spirit. God saves whomever He wills, and administers grace and salvation to whomever He will. Thus, whether those outside the Church are committing spiritual adultery or not cannot be determined by any of us. We do not know who is 'outside the Church'. We do know that the Orthodox are 'in the Church'.
This is a difficult one, as the recent thread on the nature of the Church suggested.
We know who is not in the Church, but its limits are not always clear - and, of course, we can, none of us, set limits to God's Grace and His mercy. So, it may be that some of those who think others are not in 'the Church' will be surprised after death; only He knows.
As Orthodox Christians, we know that the Orthodox Church is the one Church which holds to the faith once delivered; but there is more than one Church using the word Orthodox in its title; and, of course, we believe in 'one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church'; and every Church thinks it is holy, many claim to be Catholic and also Apostolic. My Catholic friends are taught that they belong to the one Church; my Eastern Orthodox friends say the same - and so do we; the only problem is that our respective Churches are not in communion one with the other.
Now, we could go the Anglican route, and say that we are all branches of the one Church - but no one except some Anglicans actually holds that view; and a Church which ordains women and homosexuals has some trouble convincing many of us that it is faithful to the Apostolic tradition; just how many Apostles approved of those notion? None - well then, go figure, as the Americans say.
So we can see that some Churches, however many good works they do, are far from the Apostolic faith. Even the Roman Catholics, for whom I have the most enormous respect, and who have probably brought more people to Christ than any other Church, have added too much to the faith to be thought wholly Apostolic. But what about the EO? They have added and taken away nothing, and the differences at Chalcedon have been shown to be mainly linguistic; they seem to me to believe as we do. Yet we are not yet in full communion.
I guess it shows how prideful we sinful men and women are. For my part, I pray for unity - and think starting with the other Orthodox is the best place.
In Christ,
John
But what about the EO? They have added and taken away nothing, and the differences at Chalcedon have been shown to be mainly linguistic; they seem to me to believe as we do. Yet we are not yet in full communion.
I guess it shows how prideful we sinful men and women are. For my part, I pray for unity - and think starting with the other Orthodox is the best place.
actually i just heard about may be 2 years ago, the EO and us have met for many times and found out that we have the same faith but it's said or presented in a diffrent way. that's why they call us monophesits. even thoo we're not. but they said that becasue most of the time we speak about the one nature of Christ more over that it's 2 in 1 without mangaling or sapration....ect. so since we have the same faith we can very easly join in time soon. and i am sure this will hapend. if we can't join with them.....who else would be join. that's considering how proud are we as copts.
anywayz, I have one small question to add to this discussion. What about all the people from all kinds of denominations who really have no clue what their theology is, and who know only the basic stuff (Christ came and died for us, and saved us etc.), people who don't know the heavy theological stuff that differentiates between all churches...
now suppose a sacrament is administered in a protestant church to someone who's protestant, will this make the sacrament non-valid? What if this same sacrament was administred by the orthodox church to someone who holds the same basic view on Christianity as the protestant person...it seems rather unfair to me!
I had a hard time formulating what I had on my mind, but I hope the point was made.
Ya salam! Mr Coptic Deacon of the Year?? What's so funny about that quote?? lol
For your information that's Psalm 83, and its a HYMN in the coptic Church that all good deacons should know off by heart!!! EPCHOICE EVNOTI (Ayohal Rab, Ilah hil qowat...)
Now what is funny about that?? are u mocking the Coptic Church? Are u?
HA!
GOTCHA!!!!!
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=5352.msg71353#msg71353 date=1180029126] Ya salam! Mr Coptic Deacon of the Year?? What's so funny about that quote?? lol
For your information that's Psalm 83, and its a HYMN in the coptic Church that all good deacons should know off by heart!!! EPCHOICE EVNOTI (Ayohal Rab, Ilah hil qowat...)
maybe he's talking about the vine....the church.
also let me provide a better translation (with all do respect to urs hos erof):
O Lord, God of the powers, return and behold from heaven, and look and visit this vine, restore and establish Her, this which Your right hand has planted.
(PS Vassilios, you didnt respond to my pm yet, i'm waaaaaaaaaaaating >:()
The bride of Christ is the belief in Christ.
Since all these churches believe in Christ, they make up the bride of Christ.
By the way in what you are saying it looks like Christ is commiting adultary. He is the one with "different brides". Choose your words carefully.
The church is where the believers pronounce their belief in God. Many have pronounced their belief in God without the church. (ex. people living in solitude in the desert)
The bride of Christ is the belief in Christ.
Since all these churches believe in Christ, they make up the bride of Christ.
am sorry but i disagree. there can't be churches but one church. Jesus Christ established one true church which he left before his ascention and he will come back take as one church.
another thing.....you can't say that anyone who believs in Jesus Christ is part of that church. Jesus didn't come on earth to give you a book as the bible and just went back to heaven. but he came saved you, physcily and in actions. than He gave you the bible to live through till time to heaven. faith as in believing is 1 factor for salvation. but the other is actions. Faith & Actions are the 2 key words or things that a person does to get to heaven. faith only like many of the Protestants doesn't save you.
tath's what am talking about. he have one bride that is full of ppl....more like believers. now those ppl have the choice to be part of the true bride or not. but if they choose to not to, they are than commiting adultry.....(this is in this adultry sence, it's not really true but an example)
There can only be one Church, as you both say.
The problem is in establishing the limits, since there is a paradox here: God's love is Infinite, His salvation is for all, but there is one Church; how to explain that?
Are we really to think that after two thousand years the great commission given by Christ to the Apostles has so failed that only a few tens of million Oriental Orthodox, or a few scores of million Eastern Orthodox makes up the whole of 'the Church'; are we to think that the 1.5 billion Roman Catholics are not proper Christians? I know one group of Orthodox (Russian) who do sincerely believe that only they have kept the pure faith. Well, if they are correct, Christianity is a great failure; I doubt they believe that, but it follows from their position.
We need to distinguish between who is 'saved' and what is the 'Church'. Only God knows who He will bring to salvation; any man who says he knows presumes beyond his powers; only the Father knows. But we do know that the best road to salvation is found within the Church. How do we define that?
Before 451 and Chalcedon it was easy enough; although there had been heretical movements almost from the start (such as the Valentinians and the Arians) the whole Church had kept to the Faith. The schism at Chalcedon has never been healed. Yet, as has been said here, the talks on unity between our Church and the EO have revealed that there were deep misunderstandings at that time, and that we have all kept the same Apostolic faith. In that sense, although we are divided, we are not sundered - we are a sorrowful witness to Our Lord, and a sign of why we need Him. Sinful, prideful men, all thinking we could compass the Lord Our God. How we have all sinned - although the Church never has.
So, I would say that we and the EO have maintained the Apostolic Faith. The Roman Catholics have also done that - although they have added things to it as well; however, perhaps we have misunderstood the nature of some of those additions, and they have not understood the nature of our objections; however, the deposit of the one faith once given is there in the Catholic Church - and union is not impossible - though, like all else, it depends on our listening to Him.
Beyond that I should not like to go. I respect the other Christian denominations, and many in them are better witnesses to Christ than a sinner like me; but, sorrowfully, I would have to say that my Church does not think that they have retained the Apostolic Faith, and that those in those Churches lack something of the fulness of the Faith. That does not mean they are not devout and good people, nor that they do not believe sincerely in the Risen Lord and strive to do His work; it just means that they are outside the sacramental communion of His Church. Beyond that I would not go.
I wonder what you think?
In Christ,
John
I wonder what you think?
well you are so right in what you said. but about that last sentence:
' it just means that they are outside the sacramental communion of His Church'
when you say 'sacramental communion' that means The Church??? rit..?
also if they are outside His Church that He established, how are those supposed to be saved by Him...???
all am saying is that God gave us a promise. He can't break....even thoo it's all His well and not ours. But what am i saying is that why others who are not part of that promise...be judged as those who are.
YES i know that judgement is for God only but if i did everything that He says including every spiritual aspact of faith and of works...everything....why should another who is not even in 'The Church' be saved.
I know am looking now at the saved part becasue it always leads to this topic when you talk about diffrent church.
one great servant in my church tell me that when you really need somthing from God you have to ask and also remind Him that You said if i do this u'll get this or many of these promises in the bible. i don't wanna say that you're threating God or anything but you have to ask and before that abide so you can be granted.
When you write you are indeed right. As to how those outside the Church can be saved, only He who makes these decisions knows that; His wisdom and compassion are infinite - mine are very limited and I bow before Him.
If we read the story of the Prodigal Son, the eldest son asked just that question, why should his younger brother who had not done as he did be so rewarded - his Father said because of his love. Remember the story about the labourers who came late to the work and still received the same pay as those who had laboured all day? We say in His prayer 'thy will be done' - and so it is. We may, in our sinful pride think that if we are very good and keep all the commandments we are 'saved'; we are not, we are all sinners, and only through Him can we be saved. The Church heals us and provides is with the path to the Truth and the Life; but from those to whom much is given, will much be asked.
So, we pray for all those outside of the Church, because we love them all and want them to enjoy what we enjoy. Those, like myself, who, through that love, come into the Church, thank Him for bringing us, and pray for those still where we were once.
In Christ,
John
If we read the story of the Prodigal Son, the eldest son asked just that question, why should his younger brother who had not done as he did be so rewarded - his Father said because of his love. Remember the story about the labourers who came late to the work and still received the same pay as those who had laboured all day? We say in His prayer 'thy will be done' - and so it is. We may, in our sinful pride think that if we are very good and keep all the commandments we are 'saved'; we are not, we are all sinners, and only through Him can we be saved. The Church heals us and provides is with the path to the Truth and the Life; but from those to whom much is given, will much be asked.
of course whome much is given much is asked. but i don't think i clearfied myslef enough. when i said: i went every aspect of the faith including preaching including everything else. to me it's not like the prodigal son story because yes the son sinned and than came back which everyone does. also the older son wasn't fully abding in his father or more to say in the 'right path'. so he's still not fully abding in his father.
John,
I agree that Christ can save whomever He wills, and He is both just and merciful, and there is no bias of one over the other, but I am going to play devil's advocate if I may. You say:
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5352.msg71410#msg71410 date=1180109832]
you are indeed right. As to how those outside the Church can be saved, only He who makes these decisions knows that; His wisdom and compassion are infinite - mine are very limited and I bow before Him.
This begs the question, if those outside the Church can be saved, then why would the Son bother coming to earth, become incarnate and take our flesh, die for us and then establish the Church, if the Church was not necessary for salvation. Now, I realize we will never know the absolute answer to this question, but I'm curious about your thoughts and contemplations on this matter. While I realize God is Love, and love is the greatest of all virtues to possess, and can sacrifice much, we cannot overlook how Christ tells us what it means to love Him. 'If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.' (John 14:15). How can we keep His commandments if we are outside of the Church and He Himself established the Church and the commandments upheld by her?
This begs the question, if those outside the Church can be saved, then why would the Son bother coming to earth, become incarnate and take our flesh, die for us and then establish the Church, if the Church was not necessary for salvation. Now, I realize we will never know the absolute answer to this question, but I'm curious about your thoughts and contemplations on this matter. While I realize God is Love, and love is the greatest of all virtues to possess, and can sacrifice much, we cannot overlook how Christ tells us what it means to love Him. 'If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.' (John 14:15). How can we keep His commandments if we are outside of the Church and He Himself established the Church and the commandments upheld by her?
thank you very much.....that's another way to explaing what i was saying John
How very pertinent and how very difficult to answer is your important question.
The short and honest answer is that I do not know why God saves those who have not been part of His Church; indeed, I do not know that He does - I only know that He can if it is His will; that is where I part company with some of Origen's speculations. As I understood it, he speculated that all would be saved; that I cannot do - all that I can say is that only God knows who is saved, and it is not my place to assume that I know what only the Infinite knows.
Are we saying that only those in His Church keep His commandments? Do all those in His Church keep His commandments? Are all those in His Church saved if they do not keep His commandments? The very tone of such questions has about it traces (and more than that) of western scholasticism; they are rather Augustinian in their framing, seeing salvation in terms of judgement rather than of healing. My understanding would be more along the lines of the healing analogy.
We are all sinners, sick with the consequences we inherited as as result of the fall of our first parents. If we walk in His way, keep His commandments, believe in Him and do works in His name, and if we partake of the sacraments of the Holy Church, and if we partake of Him, and He is in us, and if we repent and if we pray, then the healing process begins and progresses. We can do nothing for ourselves here, save repent and follow His word as the Church tells us; we can take the sacraments, we can confess and be absolved; we can refrain from sin; we can do those things He wants us to do. If we do all that, then we move towards theosis; but in this life we cannot reach it.
Those outside of the Church have a much greater problem - how can they begin this process, and how can they heal? However much they read their Bibles, and however much they believe in Him, they do not receive Him in the sacraments. How can I say that? well the only advantage of having been born into another Christian 'Church' is that I can compare the experience of receiving the body and blood; these are not to be spoken of lightly or in public - but all I can say is that the difference is immense. Indeed, now that I know it, I can say what I have said!
But His mercy and will are all. What about those people who never see an Orthodox Church, who live in the jungles of the wild places of the earth? What about those born in places where Christianity is banned and who never know of it? Are such men and women doomed because we failed to preach the Word to them? Perhaps we should be doomed for failing them? How fortunate then we all are in His love. But we know He is also wrathful - and if we believe and then fall away, how terrible for us!
Your question is a good one, and it would be interesting to hear others on it - these are my thoughts for now!
In Christ,
John