I went to a prayer meeting in Paris yesterday and this nun said that Christ was led by the Holy Spirit to do things.
Do we subscribe to such ideas?
I guess the short answer to this is yes. One verse that confirms this can be found in Luke 4. It's the very first verse actually:
[quote=Luke 4:1-2]1. Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness, 2. where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing at all during those days, and when they were over, he was famished.
Indeed, where is Iqbal when we have such need of him?
The answer must be yes.
Luke 3:22
And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.
John 1:30-33
30 This is He of whom I said, `After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.' 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water. 32 And John bore witness, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, `Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'
John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.
But we need to remember the doctrine of the Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of one substance.
hi, but the tone of sentence the nun said was something lik that Jesus was any less than the Holy spirit and seems to say that he is not God the son but rather all he did is only due credit to the holy spirit leading him. if that is waht she meant i certanly disagree Our Lord Jesus Christ was alway with the Holy Spirit he gave and bestowed the holy spirit to the apostles the spirit never departed him. yes perhaps there were moments it seems he was more with refreshed the spirit like the above verse but that doesnt catogrise him that he was what he was because he was lead by the holy spirit. that is trying to say as if anyone who so filled wit the holy spirit could do waht our Lord did i think that is wrong. our lords coming was before ge ....we all talking about i think that nun has got some idea in her head that she needs to review seriously... >:(
If that is what was meant then I fear that our sister is close to a heresy known as subordinationism, which held that God was superior to the other parts of the Trinity. This is not so, and it is not the teaching of the Church. The great St. Cyril decisively refuted this heresy in his commentary on the Gospel of St. John.
So you are correct, the sister does need to be clearer in what she is saying. I feel sure that she does not mean to suggest that Christ is in any way inferior to the Holy Spirit; as I say, that would be heresy.
The Three persons of the Trinity are of one essence, and are equal, although each is defined by a particular function; the Father by His nature as Father, the Son as the Incarnate Word, and the Spirit as the comforter who is with us to the end. As one of the Fathers wrote:
That the Deity is incomprehensible, and that we ought not to pry into and meddle with things which have not been delivered to us by the holy Prophets, and Apostles, and Evangelists.
No one hath seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him(1). The Deity, therefore, is ineffable and incomprehensible. For no one knoweth the Father, save the Son, nor the Son, save the Father(2). And the Holy Spirit, too, so knows the things of God as the spirit of the man knows the things that are in him(3). Moreover, after the first and blessed nature no one, not of men only, but even of supramundane powers, and the Cherubim, I say, and Seraphim themselves, has ever known God, save he to whom He revealed Himself.
Dear all, May I divert the course of this topic a bit, and ask your opinions about this question: Do we have the Holy Spirit inside us or not? What I believe is that we do not, or we would have become like Jesus Christ (the only human being to have the Holy Spirit as a person inside). But we do have the gifts and the fruits of the Holy Spirit inside us, which we can grow, or kill. I will be very happy to hear your comments. God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
If we do not have the Holy Spirit in us, then what is it that convicts us of our sins? What is it that stirs us towards repentance and confession? What do we receive in baptism and chrismation? If the Holy Spirit is not in us, then how can we begin the process towards theosis and become Christ-like? Surely we cannot do this on our own. A couple of verses that I think confirms that we do in fact have the Holy Spirit in us (after baptism and chrismation of course) are the following:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit: -- Acts 8:15
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. -- Acts 8:17
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? -- Acts 10:47
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5357.msg71529#msg71529 date=1180436911] What I believe is that we do not, or we would have become like Jesus Christ (the only human being to have the Holy Spirit as a person inside).
i have to disagree. it is clearly said that we will get the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the Spirit of truth that will lead us thought this journy and give us many powers. that doesn't have to be like Christ. Jesus was One of the Holy Trinity,.....we will never be that.
But we do have the gifts and the fruits of the Holy Spirit inside us, which we can grow, or kill.
how can you do that.
Galatians 5:22-26 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
the fruit (not the fruits) is a result of having the Spirit working in you. it's not somthing you have to increase...it's somthing you get when u let Him work in work in you leading you to the right path.
You are surely both right. And to your excellent examples might I be permitted to add three more?
We read in St. Paul's letters:
"He saved us, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit ."(Titus 3:5)
As St. Peter said:
" Repent, and let every one of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)
In writing about how we are justified through free Grace, H.H. Pope Shenouda III in the fourth volume of his 'So many years with the problems of people' writes:
It is then that we can enter into good works, which are the fruit of faith and repentance, and the result of the activity in us of the Holy Spirit which we have received through the sacrament of the holy chrism and the renewal and sonship which we were given at baptism.
If we have not the Spirit in us then we are surely lost?
Also, without the Holy Spirit how can we be saved? It is the Holy Spirit, as Cephas said, which is responsible for the process of confession and repentance. I will also add that we are in the time of the Pentecost, and it should be especially clear in this period the monumental importance of the Holy Spirit. If it descended on the Apostles, being believers, in the form of tongues of fire, why wouldn't it descend on us during Chrismation?
hi, now let me divert u guys for a sec, brothers why is it that we are so easily diverted. diverted from the truth. we give so much time and poundering to things that we surely know ourselves has a hint that perhaps might be diverting from the truth. why do we even put oursevles in positions something that could make us leave the side of our beloved God. i do not understand this. :-[ this is not directed to u ophadece i am sorry please doint take it in a wrong but some friends or should i say members of the congregation who so often loose themselves on one of these tangents and wahts worse is when they are corrected in the goodness of spirit them instead of embracing the right get offended and take to heart it is truly sad let us not waste any time when it becomes obvious that we should correct our selves when we have such strong witnesses in such matters
and the answer to ur ?ophadece is yes we have the HS in us i think the verses posted are sufficient and above all i think i would have left the side of our Lord long ago if it wasnt the HS guiding me bk in confession and repentence in love of his love of his sacrifice and his compassion i could not have seen this unless the HS giuded me. sure the HS has left me plenty of times (decresed in stregnth perhaps)but God in his mercy through his HS has guided me back God bless
At the risk of hijacking this thread further, I shall try to keep my response brief.
karas7,
There are many people (myself included) who have a very inquisitive nature and like to ask questions about certain concepts or teachings in the Faith. I, for one, do not find anything wrong with it, as it has helped me strengthen my own faith in the process. I know that a certain line of questioning can lead a person astray (this is personal experience talking), but at the same time, some people cannot just 'take a person's word' on something. They need to inquire so that they may further understand and appreciate what Christ taught to the Apostles and has been preserved by the Church. I personally feel that blind faith is a dangerous thing. God has blessed us with a mind to think and question. How else can we learn more about our loving Creator, if we do not question and then seek out answers?
yea u are right i aboslutely agree but i am scared too somedays even i myself can take it too far it is sad to see some nun or someone else who could have great potential loose himself on some decieving thought or idea ...by all measn we should question but how far to take it...some people satisfy thier own ego or idea tand they debate about it for sl long thats what i am scared of and doint neceassarily like thats all.. all in all i agree wit waht u said
People, What's going on??? KNFOC must be laughing so hard by now.. we both were on the verge of erasing this thread cos i thought it was a stupid question.
We left it just in case there was anyone who was stupid that could have liked the question (such as myself!).
It does, however, raise interesting questions about our understanding of our faith - and the importance of using one's reason, properly guided. There are, as the initial post reveals, dangers is simply accepting one version of what one is told.
As has been demonstrated, the fact the Lord Christ was "led by the Spirit" is in fact explicitly accounted for in the Scriptures, in addition to His being "filled by the Holy Spirit." These clauses in the introduction to The Temptation narrative sit uncomfortably with some by virtue of an incorrect understanding of their purpose and implications. They are in fact quite significant to our overall understanding of the Temptation narrative; it is in my estimation that the Temptation narrative would be of very little significance had the inspired authors neglected the clauses in questions.
The two clauses in question relate to different matters and hence are to be dealt with separately; they're also both, respectively, quite rich in their depth. As such, I will simply focus on the clause pertaining to Christ's being "led by the Spirit" since that is the primary concern of this thread, and will restrict the focus of my discussion to, what in my experience is, the most common incorrect inference made in regard to it.
In addressing what I presume to be the primary reason for any feeling of awkwardness towards the notion of Christ being "led by the Spirit", I must insist that Christ was not being led as if He were a subordinate follower of a superior, or even as if He were a superior lead by a subordinate. The clause is simply attempting to emphasise the co-operation between the co-Persons of the Trinity in the redemption of mankind. That the Holy Spirit leads Christ is an indication of the Holy Spirit's desire and insistence to see Christ fulfill His redemptive task. That Christ follows, is an indication of His volitional acquiescence to the Spirit's suggestion.
Remember, that the Holy Spirit is none other than the Spirit of Christ; He is being lead not by a superior Spirit, but by His very own Spirit, and the interaction between Him and His Spirit is attested to by the Apostles in order that it be made clear to us, that though it was the Son Alone who became man for our redemption, the Father and the Holy Spirit were not far-off spectators, but were intimately involved in His every act and mission.
Now, I asked this question because I heard it in a catholic Church. And yes, u were right Iqbal, the nun that said it, said it in such a way as to say that "as Christ was led by the Holy Spirit... let the Holy Spirit lead you"... and frankly speaking, i doubt stuff I hear in the Catholic CHurches sometimes.
So, yes, i didnt like the notion that Christ is being led by a superior Spirit?! So, if the Spirit of Christ IS the Holy Spirit, why then was He led by His own Spirit? Why bother even saying that in the scriptures.
It was a packed Church in Paris when she said that statement, and i can tell you, it worries me a bit at what is being said in some places of worship.
Good to have you back here - and with a post of real weight.
The Holy Ghost, the Comforter is the third part of the Trinity, as you say. Being of one essence with the Father, He is of one essence also with the Son, which is, I think, what you are saying to us; and that is the sense in which the Lord is led by His own Spirit.
The scriptures tell us this because it is this same Spirit that descends upon us and which leads us. Christ redeems our damaged human nature, and His Spirit guides us.
What Vassilios says about what goes on in some Churches is, indeed, worrying. Still, it is as nothing compared to the sermon I once heard in an Anglican Church which told us all that the miracles of Our Lord were symbolic, in much the same way as His resurrection was. That is one reason I am no longer an Anglican.
Good to have you back here - and with a post of real weight.
The Holy Ghost, the Comforter is the third part of the Trinity, as you say. Being of one essence with the Father, He is of one essence also with the Son, which is, I think, what you are saying to us; and that is the sense in which the Lord is led by His own Spirit.
The scriptures tell us this because it is this same Spirit that descends upon us and which leads us. Christ redeems our damaged human nature, and His Spirit guides us.
What Vassilios says about what goes on in some Churches is, indeed, worrying. Still, it is as nothing compared to the sermon I once heard in an Anglican Church which told us all that the miracles of Our Lord were symbolic, in much the same way as His resurrection was. That is one reason I am no longer an Anglican.
In Christ,
John
That's very serious. If its all symbolic why do they worship Christ for? Its all symbols then for them!?
You're quite correct, and as I say, that's one of the many reasons I left the Church of England. Of course there are many Anglicans who believe what we do, but the problem is that it is perfectly acceptable in the C of E to believe that there was no physical resurrection and that Jesus was, in effect, just a really good guy with cool ideas about how to live life. This is not Christianity as the Apostles received it, and however many really good people there are in the Anglican Church, I found it impossible to stay part of something that had such a range of 'beliefs'.
Of course, the attitude to women 'priests' and 'gay priests' was not exactly helpful either!
Dear all, I am sorry I missed the topic for a while. I actually posted my question, and then forgot the whole about it: how careless! :) I wanted to divert the course of the topic a bit thinking that all of you would agree with me, and now I found out that you all DISAGREE with me. Well, I have to just tell you, I kept asking myself that question for a long time, and about five or six years ago, I asked a few priests (not only one) who asserted to me, we don't have the HOLY SPIRIT as a person inside us. The two of them were not in the same church, one of them being a monk, and the other a church priest. The reason why I remembered, is that I even heard a bishop (don't remember his name now) on a CD saying the same thing just a week ago. I just recommed you take it up with your priests and it will be interesting to know what they say. I don't object to all the verses that Cephas, and minagir posted, but their meaning isn't that we received the Person of the Holy Spirit. No, guys: I don't think that is right; even when that doesn't make us equal to Christ, because we will never be. Trust me, I am not making anything up: it is just I am passing on what I learnt from the church leaders. Dear karas7, no offence at all: thanks for your advice. Now, I would really like to hear Iqbal's opinion about this as well, and I think we all agree on this. God bless you all and mention me in your prayers.
The only human being who received the Person ( Hypostasis, Oknoom ) of the Holy Spirit is the holy Theotokos Virgin St. Mary, and that happened during her holy pregnancy. All of us after we’ve anointed with the Holy Myrone receive only the Grace of the Holy Spirit. When we pray the ABSOLUTION of the 3rd Hour’ We say " We ask and entreat You, O lover of mankind, to accept our prayers, and forgive our sins, and send forth upon us the grace of Your Holy Spirit, and purify us from all defilement of body and spirit ". There is great difference between the Person of the Holy Spirit and the grace of the Holy Spirit, if the Person of the Holy Spirit is unite with anyone that one becomes God, may it never be. This is a heresy known as “ deifying man” and as a matter of fact there is a big debate about this subject in the Coptic Church in Egypt, following the writing of some of the monks of Deer Abu Makaar. Pope Shenouda III attacked this false teaching in a lecture to the students of the Theological School and his Holiness wrote an article in AL Kerasah Magazine about this subject. Our Lady of us all, after her humble submission, received the Person of the Holy Spirit for the following reasons: + to sanctify her womb from the stain of the original sin, + to form an embryo from her blood contrary to the natural way and + to unite the human nature with the Divine Nature of the Logos, from the first moment, to be the One Nature of the Incarnate Word of God.
Thank you dear Safaa: you returned my dignity... ;D Just joking. Thank you very much for clarifying the things with concrete examples, and concurrent as well. God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
I must disagree with this statement for i was just reading an article by HH that said the Holy Spirit decended on the apostles. not just His grace. now i am not comparing us to the desciples but if what you say is true then why would he give His spirit to his apostle but not to us. here is a piece of the article i was reading: [glow=red,2,300]"At present we practice the Sacrament of the Holy Myron (Chrism) or the Sacrament of Anointing, after Baptism. During the rites of this sacrament, we anoint the child with the Myron (Chrism) on many parts of his body, and we also lay the hand on his head and breathe in his face saying to him, "accept the Holy Spirit...". "[/glow] here is also the link to the complete article: http://coptichymns.org/index.php?module=library&func=viewpub&tid=1&pid=547 so we must have the Holy Spirit inside of us. this in no way makes us equal to God. are we not called the temples of God and also in the third hour of the agpeya after the gospel it says Lord do not take Your Holy Spirit away from us. not His grace. there are many other example of how we are filled with the Holy Spirit and not just His Grace in the article.
No body mentioned that we are not the dwelling of the Holy Spirit, of course this is the most important spiritual blessing of being baptised and anointed believers of the Lord. So forget about this issue and calm down, we are indeed the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. The question that we are faced with: Are we having the Hypostasis of the 3rd person of God?!!!! The answer is definitely No. This is heresy and is propagated now on a wide scale across the so called New Age Movement and started to appear in the writing of some of the monks I mentioned before in my previous post. If you know to read Arabic I will try to send you the issue of Al Kerahsa Magazine, though give me time because I have to go through at least a year publication. If were to have the Oknoom of the Holy Spirit we would be equal to Christ!!! Are we?!!! This is definitely a very serious theological problem that needed to be addressed , and I may ask ophadece to start a new thread concerning this issue.
So if thats so what exactly do we have inside us????? if its not the Holy Spirit Himself then what? it cannot just be His Grace. i don't think just because we have the Holy Spirit Himself in us makes us equal to God at all. sorry if i seem a bit ignorant on the subject but i have never ever heard this before. so if you don't mind enlighten us with some depth so that we can understand other wise and possibly shed some light on this subject
Dear Jydeacon, Dose Our God, Lord, Saviour and King of us all have His Humanity united with His Divinity in the Person of Jesus Christ? The answer of course is Yes, and this is the believe of all Christians regardless of their denominations, and that is why we call Him The Only God.
Do you want to equate that with us having the Divinity!!! I just will leave it for you to ponder about. As ophadece asked before go and inquire about that question from your priest and then come and tell us the answer
Do we not take communion at every Liturgy and eat the Lord's Body and drink His True Blood, then what is the difference between having the Lord of Glory in Body and Blood and His Holy Spirit. Now i am not saying that any of us are worthy of such a gift but we are fortunate enough to be given the chance to recieve this gift. are we not united in Christ while he said Abide in me and I in you. Again i am not saying that we are some how connected in the Trinity and are equal with God. we are not even close to equal as the lowest rank of the angels. but we have been made worthy through our Lords Blood to have His Own Spirit dwell in us. we are not connected with His Divine nature. with out the Holy Spirit, could Pope Kyrillos VI been able to cast out demons, heal the sick, and do many miracles just by a word. of course not. Now i am aware i can still be wrong but this is my argument. if you don't mind i would appreciate it if you would elaborate more on your answer.
Comments
[quote=Luke 4:1-2]1. Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness,
2. where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing at all during those days, and when they were over, he was famished.
The answer must be yes.
Luke 3:22 John 1:30-33 John 20:22 But we need to remember the doctrine of the Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of one substance.
In Christ,
Anglian
i can learn from tasbeha.org a lot...everyday
but the tone of sentence the nun said was something lik that Jesus was any less than the Holy spirit and seems to say that he is not God the son but rather all he did is only due credit to the holy spirit leading him. if that is waht she meant i certanly disagree Our Lord Jesus Christ was alway with the Holy Spirit he gave and bestowed the holy spirit to the apostles the spirit never departed him. yes perhaps there were moments it seems he was more with refreshed the spirit like the above verse but that doesnt catogrise him that he was what he was because he was lead by the holy spirit. that is trying to say as if anyone who so filled wit the holy spirit could do waht our Lord did i think that is wrong. our lords coming was before ge ....we all talking about i think that nun has got some idea in her head that she needs to review seriously... >:(
If that is what was meant then I fear that our sister is close to a heresy known as subordinationism, which held that God was superior to the other parts of the Trinity. This is not so, and it is not the teaching of the Church. The great St. Cyril decisively refuted this heresy in his commentary on the Gospel of St. John.
So you are correct, the sister does need to be clearer in what she is saying. I feel sure that she does not mean to suggest that Christ is in any way inferior to the Holy Spirit; as I say, that would be heresy.
The Three persons of the Trinity are of one essence, and are equal, although each is defined by a particular function; the Father by His nature as Father, the Son as the Incarnate Word, and the Spirit as the comforter who is with us to the end. As one of the Fathers wrote: Hope this helps.
In Christ,
John
May I divert the course of this topic a bit, and ask your opinions about this question: Do we have the Holy Spirit inside us or not?
What I believe is that we do not, or we would have become like Jesus Christ (the only human being to have the Holy Spirit as a person inside). But we do have the gifts and the fruits of the Holy Spirit inside us, which we can grow, or kill.
I will be very happy to hear your comments. God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
If we do not have the Holy Spirit in us, then what is it that convicts us of our sins? What is it that stirs us towards repentance and confession? What do we receive in baptism and chrismation? If the Holy Spirit is not in us, then how can we begin the process towards theosis and become Christ-like? Surely we cannot do this on our own. A couple of verses that I think confirms that we do in fact have the Holy Spirit in us (after baptism and chrismation of course) are the following:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit:
-- Acts 8:15
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
-- Acts 8:17
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
-- Acts 10:47
What I believe is that we do not, or we would have become like Jesus Christ (the only human being to have the Holy Spirit as a person inside).
i have to disagree. it is clearly said that we will get the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the Spirit of truth that will lead us thought this journy and give us many powers. that doesn't have to be like Christ. Jesus was One of the Holy Trinity,.....we will never be that.
But we do have the gifts and the fruits of the Holy Spirit inside us, which we can grow, or kill.
how can you do that.
Galatians 5:22-26
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
the fruit (not the fruits) is a result of having the Spirit working in you. it's not somthing you have to increase...it's somthing you get when u let Him work in work in you leading you to the right path.
You are surely both right. And to your excellent examples might I be permitted to add three more?
We read in St. Paul's letters: As St. Peter said: In writing about how we are justified through free Grace, H.H. Pope Shenouda III in the fourth volume of his 'So many years with the problems of people' writes: If we have not the Spirit in us then we are surely lost?
In Christ,
John
I will also add that we are in the time of the Pentecost, and it should be especially clear in this period the monumental importance of the Holy Spirit. If it descended on the Apostles, being believers, in the form of tongues of fire, why wouldn't it descend on us during Chrismation?
now let me divert u guys for a sec,
brothers why is it that we are so easily diverted. diverted from the truth. we give so much time and poundering to things that we surely know ourselves has a hint that perhaps might be diverting from the truth. why do we even put oursevles in positions something that could make us leave the side of our beloved God. i do not understand this. :-[
this is not directed to u ophadece i am sorry please doint take it in a wrong but some friends or should i say members of the congregation who so often loose themselves on one of these tangents and wahts worse is when they are corrected in the goodness of spirit them instead of embracing the right get offended and take to heart it is truly sad let us not waste any time when it becomes obvious that we should correct our selves when we have such strong witnesses in such matters
and the answer to ur ?ophadece is yes we have the HS in us i think the verses posted are sufficient and above all i think i would have left the side of our Lord long ago if it wasnt the HS guiding me bk in confession and repentence in love of his love of his sacrifice and his compassion i could not have seen this unless the HS giuded me. sure the HS has left me plenty of times (decresed in stregnth perhaps)but God in his mercy through his HS has guided me back
God bless
At the risk of hijacking this thread further, I shall try to keep my response brief.
karas7,
There are many people (myself included) who have a very inquisitive nature and like to ask questions about certain concepts or teachings in the Faith. I, for one, do not find anything wrong with it, as it has helped me strengthen my own faith in the process. I know that a certain line of questioning can lead a person astray (this is personal experience talking), but at the same time, some people cannot just 'take a person's word' on something. They need to inquire so that they may further understand and appreciate what Christ taught to the Apostles and has been preserved by the Church. I personally feel that blind faith is a dangerous thing. God has blessed us with a mind to think and question. How else can we learn more about our loving Creator, if we do not question and then seek out answers?
all in all i agree wit waht u said
What's going on??? KNFOC must be laughing so hard by now.. we both were on the verge of erasing this thread cos i thought it was a stupid question.
We left it just in case there was anyone who was stupid that could have liked the question (such as myself!).
LOL.
It does, however, raise interesting questions about our understanding of our faith - and the importance of using one's reason, properly guided. There are, as the initial post reveals, dangers is simply accepting one version of what one is told.
In Christ,
John
The two clauses in question relate to different matters and hence are to be dealt with separately; they're also both, respectively, quite rich in their depth. As such, I will simply focus on the clause pertaining to Christ's being "led by the Spirit" since that is the primary concern of this thread, and will restrict the focus of my discussion to, what in my experience is, the most common incorrect inference made in regard to it.
In addressing what I presume to be the primary reason for any feeling of awkwardness towards the notion of Christ being "led by the Spirit", I must insist that Christ was not being led as if He were a subordinate follower of a superior, or even as if He were a superior lead by a subordinate. The clause is simply attempting to emphasise the co-operation between the co-Persons of the Trinity in the redemption of mankind. That the Holy Spirit leads Christ is an indication of the Holy Spirit's desire and insistence to see Christ fulfill His redemptive task. That Christ follows, is an indication of His volitional acquiescence to the Spirit's suggestion.
Remember, that the Holy Spirit is none other than the Spirit of Christ; He is being lead not by a superior Spirit, but by His very own Spirit, and the interaction between Him and His Spirit is attested to by the Apostles in order that it be made clear to us, that though it was the Son Alone who became man for our redemption, the Father and the Holy Spirit were not far-off spectators, but were intimately involved in His every act and mission.
(I think we all missed u)! Welcome back.
Now, I asked this question because I heard it in a catholic Church. And yes, u were right Iqbal, the nun that said it, said it in such a way as to say that "as Christ was led by the Holy Spirit... let the Holy Spirit lead you"... and frankly speaking, i doubt stuff I hear in the Catholic CHurches sometimes.
So, yes, i didnt like the notion that Christ is being led by a superior Spirit?! So, if the Spirit of Christ IS the Holy Spirit, why then was He led by His own Spirit? Why bother even saying that in the scriptures.
It was a packed Church in Paris when she said that statement, and i can tell you, it worries me a bit at what is being said in some places of worship.
Good to have you back here - and with a post of real weight.
The Holy Ghost, the Comforter is the third part of the Trinity, as you say. Being of one essence with the Father, He is of one essence also with the Son, which is, I think, what you are saying to us; and that is the sense in which the Lord is led by His own Spirit.
The scriptures tell us this because it is this same Spirit that descends upon us and which leads us. Christ redeems our damaged human nature, and His Spirit guides us.
What Vassilios says about what goes on in some Churches is, indeed, worrying. Still, it is as nothing compared to the sermon I once heard in an Anglican Church which told us all that the miracles of Our Lord were symbolic, in much the same way as His resurrection was. That is one reason I am no longer an Anglican.
In Christ,
John
Dear Iqbal,
Good to have you back here - and with a post of real weight.
The Holy Ghost, the Comforter is the third part of the Trinity, as you say. Being of one essence with the Father, He is of one essence also with the Son, which is, I think, what you are saying to us; and that is the sense in which the Lord is led by His own Spirit.
The scriptures tell us this because it is this same Spirit that descends upon us and which leads us. Christ redeems our damaged human nature, and His Spirit guides us.
What Vassilios says about what goes on in some Churches is, indeed, worrying. Still, it is as nothing compared to the sermon I once heard in an Anglican Church which told us all that the miracles of Our Lord were symbolic, in much the same way as His resurrection was. That is one reason I am no longer an Anglican.
In Christ,
John
That's very serious. If its all symbolic why do they worship Christ for? Its all symbols then for them!?
You're quite correct, and as I say, that's one of the many reasons I left the Church of England. Of course there are many Anglicans who believe what we do, but the problem is that it is perfectly acceptable in the C of E to believe that there was no physical resurrection and that Jesus was, in effect, just a really good guy with cool ideas about how to live life. This is not Christianity as the Apostles received it, and however many really good people there are in the Anglican Church, I found it impossible to stay part of something that had such a range of 'beliefs'.
Of course, the attitude to women 'priests' and 'gay priests' was not exactly helpful either!
In Christ,
John
I am sorry I missed the topic for a while. I actually posted my question, and then forgot the whole about it: how careless! :)
I wanted to divert the course of the topic a bit thinking that all of you would agree with me, and now I found out that you all DISAGREE with me. Well, I have to just tell you, I kept asking myself that question for a long time, and about five or six years ago, I asked a few priests (not only one) who asserted to me, we don't have the HOLY SPIRIT as a person inside us. The two of them were not in the same church, one of them being a monk, and the other a church priest. The reason why I remembered, is that I even heard a bishop (don't remember his name now) on a CD saying the same thing just a week ago. I just recommed you take it up with your priests and it will be interesting to know what they say.
I don't object to all the verses that Cephas, and minagir posted, but their meaning isn't that we received the Person of the Holy Spirit. No, guys: I don't think that is right; even when that doesn't make us equal to Christ, because we will never be. Trust me, I am not making anything up: it is just I am passing on what I learnt from the church leaders.
Dear karas7, no offence at all: thanks for your advice.
Now, I would really like to hear Iqbal's opinion about this as well, and I think we all agree on this.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers.
I agree with you ophadece
The only human being who received the Person ( Hypostasis, Oknoom ) of the Holy Spirit is the holy Theotokos Virgin St. Mary, and that happened during her holy pregnancy. All of us after we’ve anointed with the Holy Myrone receive only the Grace of the Holy Spirit.
When we pray the ABSOLUTION of the 3rd Hour’ We say " We ask and entreat You, O lover of mankind, to accept our prayers, and forgive our sins, and send forth upon us the grace of Your Holy Spirit, and purify us from all defilement of body and spirit ".
There is great difference between the Person of the Holy Spirit and the grace of the Holy Spirit, if the Person of the Holy Spirit is unite with anyone that one becomes God, may it never be. This is a heresy known as “ deifying man” and as a matter of fact there is a big debate about this subject in the Coptic Church in Egypt, following the writing of some of the monks of Deer Abu Makaar. Pope Shenouda III attacked this false teaching in a lecture to the students of the Theological School and his Holiness wrote an article in AL Kerasah Magazine about this subject.
Our Lady of us all, after her humble submission, received the Person of the Holy Spirit for the following reasons:
+ to sanctify her womb from the stain of the original sin,
+ to form an embryo from her blood contrary to the natural way and
+ to unite the human nature with the Divine Nature of the Logos, from the first moment, to be the One Nature of the Incarnate Word of God.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
[glow=red,2,300]"At present we practice the Sacrament of the Holy Myron (Chrism) or the Sacrament of Anointing, after Baptism. During the rites of this sacrament, we anoint the child with the Myron (Chrism) on many parts of his body, and we also lay the hand on his head and breathe in his face saying to him, "accept the Holy Spirit...". "[/glow]
here is also the link to the complete article: http://coptichymns.org/index.php?module=library&func=viewpub&tid=1&pid=547
so we must have the Holy Spirit inside of us. this in no way makes us equal to God. are we not called the temples of God and also in the third hour of the agpeya after the gospel it says Lord do not take Your Holy Spirit away from us. not His grace. there are many other example of how we are filled with the Holy Spirit and not just His Grace in the article.
No body mentioned that we are not the dwelling of the Holy Spirit, of course this is the most important spiritual blessing of being baptised and anointed believers of the Lord.
So forget about this issue and calm down, we are indeed the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. The question that we are faced with: Are we having the Hypostasis of the 3rd person of God?!!!! The answer is definitely No. This is heresy and is propagated now on a wide scale across the so called New Age Movement and started to appear in the writing of some of the monks I mentioned before in my previous post. If you know to read Arabic I will try to send you the issue of Al Kerahsa Magazine, though give me time because I have to go through at least a year publication.
If were to have the Oknoom of the Holy Spirit we would be equal to Christ!!! Are we?!!! This is definitely a very serious theological problem that needed to be addressed , and I may ask ophadece to start a new thread concerning this issue.
Dose Our God, Lord, Saviour and King of us all have His Humanity united with His Divinity in the Person of Jesus Christ? The answer of course is Yes, and this is the believe of all Christians regardless of their denominations, and that is why we call Him The Only God.
Do you want to equate that with us having the Divinity!!! I just will leave it for you to ponder about. As ophadece asked before go and inquire about that question from your priest and then come and tell us the answer