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1 John 5:13
1 John 5 (King James Version)
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 john 5&version=9
How do we orthodox make sense of this verse?
We know though that there is other parts in the bible that tell us salvation is by faith and works.. not just faith..
The Sheep and the Goats, Wise and foolish virgins maybe, James.. faith without works are dead.. the part which mentions people practicing certain sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.. the parts about persevering to the end, the part about walking in the narrow gate, the part about many are called but few chosen.. the part about those who do the will of God are My brethren.. and maybe other parts.. the parable about the talents
I also want to ask how come Christ said many will say to Him have we not cast out demons in your name and He will tell them to go away from Him for they were lawless people? in the orthodox church do not only great saints have the gift of casting out demons? I know those holy ascetics still might perish but maybe only a few of them would perish.. do you think some protestants and other denominations have the ability to cast out demons? or maybe many orthodox christians had this gift in earlier centuries.. right?
May the LORD make our death be the death of righteous men and women.. have mercy on us O Lord God the Almighty ,Have mercy on us
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 john 5&version=9
How do we orthodox make sense of this verse?
We know though that there is other parts in the bible that tell us salvation is by faith and works.. not just faith..
The Sheep and the Goats, Wise and foolish virgins maybe, James.. faith without works are dead.. the part which mentions people practicing certain sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.. the parts about persevering to the end, the part about walking in the narrow gate, the part about many are called but few chosen.. the part about those who do the will of God are My brethren.. and maybe other parts.. the parable about the talents
I also want to ask how come Christ said many will say to Him have we not cast out demons in your name and He will tell them to go away from Him for they were lawless people? in the orthodox church do not only great saints have the gift of casting out demons? I know those holy ascetics still might perish but maybe only a few of them would perish.. do you think some protestants and other denominations have the ability to cast out demons? or maybe many orthodox christians had this gift in earlier centuries.. right?
May the LORD make our death be the death of righteous men and women.. have mercy on us O Lord God the Almighty ,Have mercy on us
Comments
I mean believing in Jesus
Its not so easy for some people to believe in Jesus and I think thats why the thief got to go to paradise.. because he believed when other people doubted..
Hizz_child is correct in saying we must read the Bible as a whole; we must also understand it in the light provided by the Church that produced it. Where Protestants tend to treat the Bible as a sacred text apart from the Church, we are told, and correctly, that we read it in another way.
From the earliest days of the Church there have been those who thought they knew better than the Apostles, and that is one of the reasons why St. John wrote his epistles - to preach the pure word as he had it from Our Lord. Our Church has preserved intact and entire, with nothing added, that Faith - that is why it is our Mother and nourishes us.
As for who will be saved - of course only God decides that; but we know the best spiritual hospital for the things which ail us.
In Christ,
John
If they never knew about the God of abraham why would God send them to hell without giving them a chance to know Him?
oh but did Christ go to hades and preach to those who never knew Him there?
Do you think they will be judged based on their deeds and that some who never believed in the God of Abraham because they were never given the chance will be saved?
Is it reasonable also to think that all those people in the days of noah were all wicked except noah and his family? I guess there were less people in the days of noah than now.. am I right? but I know God gave them a chance when He let Noah preach to them and warn them about the destruction.. I guess thats like those who do not believe in the gospel will perish
.. and to answer why God would let those perish just because they did not believe an old man who could of been psychotic.. I think its because they never even considered whether its true and never asked God whether it is true and gave God a chance to make them believe.. also they should of repented of their deeds incase it is true... but for us repentance is not enough (though it might be impossible for them without Gods grace.. in the old days people could repent without faith in Jesus right? or did they have to believe something too? atleast in God of abraham.. they might be able to repent a bit without faith in God I think but not fully .. because repenting fully involves sorrow not just for sinning but for hurting Gods heart and involves thinking about God and loving Him ) but faith is important too.. but that should not be a problem.. for Christ said .. "ask and you shall receive, seek and you will find" .. maybe repentance then was not perfect also if they could not love their enemy.. but did not a book of wisdom say "if your enemy hungers feed him..heap coals of fire.." but was there actual love for the enemy or just being told the right thing to do even if you do not love him? also david loved king saul did he not? even though he tried to kill him.
since there were maybe as many people then as there are now in the world.. is it reasonable to say they were all wicked .. and that God knows even if He did preach to them they would not respond to Him and be obedient to Him?
Did God leave the better people to be created in later generations?
I might of said some wrong things.. correct me if so
I don't think you have said anything wrong.
Even now, not all the world knows about our God; that is why mission matters. Indeed, not every country has a chance to participate in Orthodox worship; which is, again, why mission matters.
When Christ raised our first father and mother from Hades, He saved them, and all those worthy of salvation; after all, only God knows who is worthy - His will be done - on earth, as it is in heaven.
God gave the Israelites many chances to receive Him and to obey His word, but their necks were stiff and their ears deaf. Christ brought the new covenant to all men and women; so we all get the chance.
Of course there were many righteous people before the Word became Incarnate, and we can be sure they are saved - that is His will; the how and the why are His business. Our business is to repent, walk in His way, and seek salvation through His Church, its sacraments, good works in faith, and His Grace, freely given.
In Christ,
John
I want to ask another question
Christ the servant in the old testament is said to be a light to the gentiles... as if gentiles never could approach God in the times before Christ.. but gentiles could convert to judaism so how has Christ benifited gentiles? I guess some gentiles did not want to be circumcised but now they have to be baptised.. do you think He is a light to the gentiles for He made more people want to become God's people since they don't have to follow the ceremonial law anymore and they can eat pork and other food.
What other reason or reasons is Christ a light to the gentiles and how has He benefited them?
There is every reason to think that when the Lord harrowed hell he brought to salvation all those who were worthy.
Of course, before the preaching of the new covenant, most of the world was unaware of the God of Abraham, although there are many signs that spiritual and holy men, such as the Buddha for example, saw something of God's Grace and mercy. It is a great mystery to me, but one accepts it, that God's revelation did not spread to the Gentiles - and perhaps that was one of the reasons why the Incarnation was necessary.
Remember in Acts 15 where some Jews want to keep the new covenant for themselves? That necessitated the first Church Council at Jerusalem, where St. Paul's message prevailed, and the will of the Spirit (which he represented) sent forth the Apostles to preach the good news everywhere. This tendency to keep the 'pearl of great price' to ourselves is still with us today in some quarters; oddly enough, usually in quarters where it is believed that no-one outside their definition of 'Church' will be saved. This seems very selfish. If you sincerely believe that your Church is the only road to salvation surely you have a God-given duty to bring everyone you can to it?
Christ came to save us all, and in Him is neither Jew nor Gentile, male or female, slave or free - we are all one in Him.
I hope that helps a little.
In Christ,
John
I actually preached once without being asked to to some people and some actually seemed responsive.. unfortuanately I was a new christian and was just kind of emphasisng receiving Jesus as Lord though I did say you have to repent to a priest to some or all but I maybe gave the impression that faith is all you need or most important.. I think that part of my preaching makes people not becoming orthodox.. because ofcourse they will wonder.. Is God only among the orthodox.. there are so many people in the world.. the orthodox are a very minority maybe.
Anyway I can not preach also because I am weak in faith and peoples questions might confuse me.. but I guess maybe one day I can just say the basic message and tell them to seek for answers for their questions from someone else.. I doubt they will ask a priest for answers to their questions..
why did some orthodox clergy praise Pope John Paul 2 as a good man if only orthodox can go to heaven? they might of even meant to imply he went to heaven..
But there is a joke known by maybe many coptic people where coptic people think they are the only people to be saved and then when they go to heaven they find others there also possibly more other christians than coptic..
But that is just a joke isn't it? we don't know for sure whether there are some other christians that will go to heaven do we?
You ask very interesting questions, and make excellent comments - so you witness well to the Lord, if I might be allowed to say so; I am grateful for the contributions which you make here.
Do we believe that only Orthodox Christians will be saved? Well, what an important and interesting question. Say we answered 'yes', would that include those Eastern Orthodox who regard us as heretical? Would we want to be saying that the 1.5 billion Roman Catholics are without Grace and will all be going to hell - even patently good men and women like John Paul II and Mother Theresa? These were better people, and better witnesses to Christ than I shall ever be; so am I 'saved' because I found the Orthodox Church and enjoy its sacraments and teaching, even though my own sins find me out always, and without absolution they would be too much for me? That hardly seems as though it can be correct, does it?
It would be good if we had some input here from a priest of a theologian; I am neither, and I hesitate to write anything that might offend through ignorance or weakness.
St. John tells us clearly that So I fear that those who do not must perish. Although, as St. Paul tells us But we must repent, and we must believe. We need to be baptised and to receive the sacraments. Does this mean that no one else is 'saved'? Yes, unless God decides otherwise - and He is all-powerful and all-knowing, and we can only say what we have been taught by Him.
There are those, such as Origen or St. Isaac the Syrian who believed that a merciful God will save everyone who wishes to be saved; this is not Orthodox doctrine, although it is not, if read closely, inconsistent with it, since it teaches that all who repent can be saved.
I hope that helps, and would welcome comments from those who know so much more about these matters.
In Christ,
John
Is it likely that he is wrong?
On matters such as whether all will be saved or not, it is possible for great teachers and saints such as Origen and St. Isaac to be wrong. They are human afterall, and what they offer us is only their thoughts, contemplations and speculations. Even though people, monks and clergy quote them, that does not make what they say written in stone. These great teachers have a lot of wisdom in their writings, but not everything they write is correct. This is why, it is important to read with discernment and guidance. To take everything others have written at face value and accept it blindly is just as dangerous as taking the other extreme (i.e. being cynical and dismissing things outright). One thing we should realize is that, even though there have been saints that have attained a very high level of spirituality, that does not mean they have somehow become inerrant. God does not take away an individual's personality, or inherent biases (this can be seen in the Gospels as well as the Epistles). In the end, everythign should be read with caution and supervision. Any questions about what you read should be brought up to those who are more knowledgable in these matters so they can guide you and provide you with further readings to help clarify some difficult concepts.
australian
lol
Κηφᾶς has provided us with a very important posting in what he has written.
We might also note that both Origen and St. Isaac do not pronounce with certainty; that is left to those inferior in spiritual knowledge and humility. They both say what is true - which is that nothing is impossible for God. Now those who want a black and white world read their writings as their saying that everyone will be saved; that is not what they say - which is that God could choose to save everyone.
It is a reminder to us that we know so little - which is why we always need to understand these things within the teachings of the Church. We have the wisdom of two thousand years - and of the Holy Spirit - upon which we can rely. We only go wrong when we think we know best. His will be done, not ours.
In Christ,
John