No, I don't think you are being confusing, but the question you put is a difficult one, because, of course, we believe that being in the Church and receiving its sacraments is the path to salvation, it is the spiritual hospital in which we receive the best treatment. There is no salvation except through Christ, and we know Him, and the Father, through the Church.
Does that mean other Christians cannot be saved? Who can dare say that? Only God knows who will be saved - He is the only just judge, and that is why we ask Him to judge us according to His will, not our merits; if it were the last, we should none of us be saved. We know where the Church is, and where salvation is; we do not presume to say where the Church is not and what the will of God is towards those who are not in the Church.
That said, if you know where the best hospital is, and where the best treatment is to be obtained, wouldn't you want to be in that hospital?
I am sure others will join us here and give us better guidance, but I hope this helps.
There is salvation outside of the Orthodox Church, and that is of course dependent on the individual's adherence to all of Christianity's fundamental principles. Having said that, however, there is a limitation to this. There are some "churches" that do not observe many things that are essential for salvation. Those churches, I would assume, do not lead one to salvation. These so-called churches sometimes even deny the sacraments of baptism, confession and repentance, and even communion. These sacraments are necessary for anyone's salvation.
There is salvation outside of the Orthodox Church, and that is of course dependent on the individual's adherence to all of Christianity's fundamental principles.
whilst tempted to agree, I wonder whether the limitations you mention do not apply here? What, after all, are the 'fundamental principles' if not Orthodoxy?
If you do not have sacramentally recognised baptism, if you do not receive the sacraments of the Church, i.e. if you are outside the Church, can you be saved? Of course, God can choose whom He will save, and no man can presume to know His mind; but Our Lord seemed pretty firm about the likely fate of those outside of the Church.
Of course, as we have discussed elsewhere, the precise boundaries and nature of the Church are not always as clear as we might sometimes think.
There is salvation outside of the Orthodox Church, and that is of course dependent on the individual's adherence to all of Christianity's fundamental principles.
whilst tempted to agree, I wonder whether the limitations you mention do not apply here? What, after all, are the 'fundamental principles' if not Orthodoxy?
If you do not have sacramentally recognised baptism, if you do not receive the sacraments of the Church, i.e. if you are outside the Church, can you be saved? Of course, God can choose whom He will save, and no man can presume to know His mind; but Our Lord seemed pretty firm about the likely fate of those outside of the Church.
Of course, as we have discussed elsewhere, the precise boundaries and nature of the Church are not always as clear as we might sometimes think.
In Christ,
John
I disagree actually here cos, you know i do feel the Holy Spirit working in others, which means they must be baptised!
THe Coptic CHurch is simply open/exclusive to Egyptian born people. How can u expect our faith to propagate when our very name is binding our faith to our country.
Is this fair??? People hear the word of God, and because they didnt decide to become coptic, all of a sudden they are doomed even though they let the Spirit direct their lives and they live by the Word of God??? Is that fair??
Is heaven solely exclusive for Copts??? and Orthodox Christians only!?? Protestants are all doomed, no matter what they do!??
Is this fair??? People hear the word of God, and because they didnt decide to become coptic, all of a sudden they are doomed even though they let the Spirit direct their lives and they live by the Word of God??? Is that fair??
Is heaven solely exclusive for Copts??? and Orthodox Christians only!?? Protestants are all doomed, no matter what they do!??
I don't believe John, anywhere in his posts, ever said anything remotely close to this. The reality is, our Church has the One True Apostolic Faith. The Sacraments are requirements (4 of the 7 anyway) to get into Heaven. If one does not partake of the Sacraments (and valid Sacraments at that), they cannot partake in Christ (Christ Himself has said this). Now, we all know where the Church (and thus by default the Spirit) is. It is found in the Orthodox Church. However, we do not know where the Church (and thus by default, the Spirit) isn't. Are Protestants doomed because they are outside the Church? That is an question only God can answer. He is the final Authority on this matter.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5369.msg72923#msg72923 date=1182354426] THe Coptic CHurch is simply open/exclusive to Egyptian born people. How can u expect our faith to propagate when our very name is binding our faith to our country.
how can you preach to other outside if the inside people are not fully faithful yet. Christ commanded His apostles to first go to Lost ones of Israel and than sameria and than the rest of the world. The Coptic church, being coptic/egyptian have to first take care of her own and than look at the outside. and i personaly thing that this has been done. look where you are, and look where everyone on this forum is. ouotside egypt where there are many coptic churchs and belivers every where in the world.
Is this fair??? People hear the word of God, and because they didnt decide to become coptic, all of a sudden they are doomed even though they let the Spirit direct their lives and they live by the Word of God??? Is that fair??
than God is the one who will consider this on judgement day. and will judge those who had rrefused the chanse to help them know Him. on the other hand, if the coptic faith was presented to them in it's right manner and they refuse it, than it will be held against them in heaven.
Is heaven solely exclusive for Copts??? and Orthodox Christians only!?? Protestants are all doomed, no matter what they do!??
there is a post about "Salvation" u'll have ur answer there
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5369.msg72926#msg72926 date=1182354778] The Sacraments are requirements (4 of the 7 anyway) to get into Heaven. If one does not partake of the Sacraments (and valid Sacraments at that), they cannot partake in Christ (Christ Himself has said this). Now, we all know where the Church (and thus by default the Spirit) is. It is found in the Orthodox Church. However, we do not know where the Church (and thus by default, the Spirit) isn't. Are Protestants doomed because they are outside the Church? That is an question only God can answer. He is the final Authority on this matter.
i agree. but one thing....you need 5 out of 7 sacraments to get to heaven.
Confession Baptism Anointing of the Mayron Eucharist Anointing of the Sick (Unction Prayer)
Are you sure that the Unction of the Sick is necessary for Salvation? I was under the impression that, as the name suggests, it was only performed if one were sick (and I assume physically sick).
Here is an excerpt from HG Bishop Mattaous' book, 'Sacramental Rites in the Coptic Orthodox Church':
Redemptive and Non-Redemptive Sacraments
There are four redemptive Sacraments out of the Seven Sacraments. They are necessary for eternal salvation, and every believer should practice them in order to gain eternal salvation. These are:
1- Baptism 2- Confirmation
3- Confession 4- Communion
The other three Sacraments are non-redemptive and unnecessary for eternal salvation.
5- Sacrament of Unction of the Sick
Given for the remedy of those who are physically or psychologically unwell only.
6- Sacrament of Matrimony
For those who want to marry for the purpose of sharing lives and bearing children. However, there are many monks and nuns, and those who live celibate lives who gain eternal life with merit.
7- Sacrament of Priesthood
Reserved only for those who are ordained as a deacon, priest or bishop. However, the majority of the Congregation has no priestly ranks, but is called for redemption and eternal life.
i never heard about what HGB Mettatos said. but i told you what i learned. and hopfully i'll get u a source. now in my opinion, who deosn't get sick. another thing i was taught that the prayer is not only for those who are already sick but it's also done as a protection prayer.
I don't believe John, anywhere in his posts, ever said anything remotely close to this.
Thank you for pointing this out; indeed nothing remotely like the interpretation offered of what I wrote was meant.
People often misunderstand the point being made. We would all like to be able to say 'hey, every good person is saved, God is love, after all, so why not?' That is a very western liberal attitude; it may even be correct, in as far as only God knows who He will save. But as you write, we have pretty clear statements from Our Lord about what is needful to be saved; we need to repent; we need to amend our lives; we need to walk in His way; we need to be part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (which means receiving the four sacraments you mentioned). Even if we do all those things, we are not 'guaranteed' salvation; again, only God can decide; but we put ourselves in the way of Truth and Life, and we have His assurance that He will speak for us.
This is not to be 'narrow-minded', nor yet to blaspheme by taking on God's role of deciding who will be saved. It is, I hope, to represent the position which the Orthodox Church has taken from the start. Does it make western liberal uncomfortable? Probably, but please understand no one is saying that Catholics and Protestants will not be saved - because only the Lord God can make that decision.
I feel sure that many who are 'sure' they will be 'saved' will not be, and many who think they will not will be; I am sure of this because, sinners that we are, we get things wrong all the time. That is why we need Our Mother the Church to guide our faltering steps.
Well, there are certain sects, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, that are not recognized by our church as Christians. What about them? Surely there must be some line drawn. I mean, can we use this line of reasoning (the reasoning that only God knows) for everyone?
Well, we could, but the point I am making applies to individuals, not to whole groups. We know what the Church teaches, which is that the only sure place to get the spiritual healing we need is within it and through it. Outside of it, well, who knows for sure in the case of individual people?
What the Church does, as been said, is that it does not define where it is not; but since we know where it is, it is best to be there with it. What I was trying to do was not to arrogate to myself what is God's. But we know what Our Lord says in the Bible, and it is sure that those whose sins are not remitted here on earth will not have them remitted hereafter; that is a sobering thought.
firstly, i belive that many of you are not understanding the importance of this film we as christians, must be able to defend our faith, under any circumstance whenever christ was given a question, he replied with an answer that was totally logical even if these answers that we give don't make sence, we must remember that god is god he defys the laws of physics, the laws of matter, the laws of medicine. he is GOD. When that is said and done, any illogical answer can be made logical
I Noticed somthing about the second film every step that he is saying was completly misinterpreted by him
To hate everybody means to not love them as much as Jesus not to despise them
to sell everything is impossible but if this fool looked at matthew 19:26, he would learn that with god, all things are possible not only that, but there are Monks and saints that gave up nearly everything to be with god
To Eat flesh and Drink blood is a metaphor Christ is Our Passover lamb and in jewish tradition, you were to eat the passover lamb to be saved by Christ asking us to do this, we have to remember that he was coming to fullfil the law
to Make ourselves as children is a metaphor as well we are supposed to take on the attributes of a child not caring about money, being dependant on our father, being worrieless
the born again is a symbol of baptism the mothers womb is the womb of the church, our true mother
back then there were no instruments to tell where the wind was coming or going from
the symbols followed by the pharisees in the old testament are still followed today, but in diffrent formats
Jesus did know what he was talking about Others didn't this guy is one of them
Hey guys. I read this a couple of months ago- thought it is relevant to what this forum was approaching- the salvation of the heterodox.
Interestingly enough, this webpage is from from an Eastern Orthodox Bishop (Metropolitan). I think it is akin to how we respond and it does resonate what Anglican said before. However, if people disagree, please respond and tell me why. I agree with the website, but that is my opinion and that is not the approach to understanding truth. So if there was a definitive response from our Church, I would like to hear it (and adhere to it).
I do not think that Christianity and going to heaven can be boiled down to a formula; as the creator of this video suggests. According to Christian faith God knows the hearts of men and women and demands different things with regards to different individuals. For this to be the case a relationship must be forged. For this reason, Christianity is a personal relationship foged with the Creator.
The reason he finds contradictions is because of the above reasons. How inauthentic would the faith be if it was a cookbook or formula! The Jews of the Old Testament saw spirituality in this way; and predictably the faith of the fathers became superficial and perverted!
So now, here is my next thought / question:
The maker of the 2nd Video had problems with the fact that certain passages in Luke 10 and Luke 18 contradicted each other. But in context to what I said earlier; how then are they contradictions?
Besides, are contradictions in the Bible such a bad thing? The reason I ask, is because human beings value things that make sense; And things that make sense have arguments that support each other with no contradictory arguments. This is what basic human rationale and logic demands.
But! Is it such a bad thing that the Bible contains contradictions? (Rather; the question should be; Does the Bible contain contradictions? and can we prove this?)
A few verses come to mind concerning this:
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.' Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."
1 Corinthians 1:18-25
"Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" --- Here, is not the wisdom of this world the capacity for logical reasoning and inquiry?
How can you make human logic and reasoning into foolishness?
"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."
Why would God want us to believe a foolish message? Did he not create us to have the capacity for inquiry and thought? Do we not have a nature of being critical about all that we see and hear? So why would God want us to abandon our critical nature?
waht do u believe in ??? just do ur best in helping them to know the truth in waht u believe if they are not game enough to give it a go its there doom if somer one does any thing as little as beieve in wisdiom of proverbs welcome him with a open mind and present ur self as one who will be judged harder then him cause u know soooo much more than tat poor chap and be thier utmost firend did nt God warn st Anthony not to wonder on such trevial matters but rather be aboslutely concerned about u salvation now if he was a saint where does that put u my friend perhaps an excuse to be lax and lazy hope not leave that which doesnt concern u at all to others and concentrate on climbin the spiritual ladder. God BELSS
My parents are- I digress, let’s depict it more amiably: you might mistake their BMI for their age. Ok, that was quite an exaggeration, but you probably get my gist. Initially, I told them that their eating habits increase the propensity for cardiovascular disease. They countered that they should enjoy life while they are still living. After some deliberation, I knew I had to be a bit more tactful; I instead argued that their eating habits is overindulgence. They riposted that they have many iniquities to worry about and that their eating habits are on par with the rest of the Western world. Subsequent to futile efforts to show that such an argument by numbers is fallacious, and in stark contrast to the message we read after the Pauline Epistle, it became quite apparent that my strategy had to change. So until I developed or even thought about how I would go about doing this, I hoped ad nauseum would do the trick. Of course, it didn’t. Before they would have desert, I would characteristically object, pointing out that they already had a smoothie before and other sweets and nuts. I thought I might make them petulant, always referring to the fat and carbohydrate content of each food item and declaring, “that has the caloric content of a meal, and you are just having that as a snack”. Yes, it didn’t work. They started using Xenical (Orlistat; medicine that decreases fat absorption), but that just reassured them that they can persist in their eating habits. So I decided, being the Machivillian person I am to appeal to- well- me. I argued, “how do you think I will feel when you are old and having heart disease and I have to take care of you”; “how do you think you will feel if I emulated you, and I get a fatty liver, a heart attack, a stroke, ….”; “if you can’t show control, how am I suppose to have confidence that I can in the future.” And so the manipulation continued. Mind you, even though I eventually was able to do it with a poker face, it was fruitless. So, what on earth has this to do with this thread? I am trying to show that logic is only going to get you so far. You have to be willing; to see that there is a problem and something needs to change before you accept certain things. This is no different to the people we cross paths, and even ourselves. I am very resistant to Christian doctrine because I don’t want to get out of my safe zone; to give alms to the poor (instead of getting the new PSP game) and the list goes on. The people we meet may be no different. Unless they are seekers, it is most likely in vain if you try to argue about contradictions etc. Even if contradictions did not exist in the Scriptures, do you think that they would be converts (some of them will because in the seeking process to repudiate the Scriptures they found they were in need of grace)? If they are unrepentant, then they are like the thorns in which seed is thrown. Don’t expect anything- they are not ready. The only thing we can do is witness Christianity with our actions; and remember the world hates goodness, but through the Holy Spirit this person may reject the world and decide to follow your Shepherd. There is a place for debates, I think. Alister McGrath converted back from Athiesm when he realized that in-fact that Christianity can make sense of the material world and his own spiritual world. To quote C.S.Lewis, "Reality, in fact, is always something you couldn't have guessed. That's one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It's a religion you couldn't have guessed." and "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." Maybe if I can show my parents that I enjoy life without the Krispy Kreme doughnuts, the smoothies, the Darrel Lea road rocket chocolate, Ferro roche pieces, pieces of cake, basbousa- then perhaps they might consider. :P To further ponder on what was previously said, I believe that when metaphysics is concerned, seeming contradiction should be expected due to the constraints of language. For instance, ask a chemist and a physicist to describe the physical world- both descriptions would probably be different, but they are not wrong either, they just can not completely articulate with the words and concepts they know about what is before them. The Scriptures, however, are from witnesses that have been entrusted the oracles of God, and are thus through tradition the best place to begin to comprehend the intricacies of God and man, as spiritual beings.
i can't believe people actually put these things on the internet. the worst thing is that they take verses and twist them around. that is horrible. i believe that the people who didn't watch should see how some people will ask them questions like these in the future and they should be prepared to answer. and to see and learn how people can twist verses from the bible and make u think they make no sense. u should know how people will ask u questions like these in the future, and u should know how to answer them.
I'm outraged The guy on the video doesn't know what he is saying. He is an athiest that is ignorant therfore doesn't wan't to know about the God side of the argument and hasn't researched.
He mentioned verses from the bible but doesn't know what they mean and inturprets them in the way that would suit him so he can carry out his argument.
The thing that i don't get about athiests is that they like to attack even without evidence. Couldn't the just keep quiet. I mean they don't have to believe in God but at least stop insulting those who do. I have experienced stuff like that even in school say..... in the uk.
The only thig we can do is to not be affected by all this nonsense and pray for every one that Christ would reveal himself to them. pray 4 me Kirolos
This sort of thing is the fruit of ignorance. I feel sorry for the man, and think he needs our prayers that he might yet turn from his sins and know the Risen Lord.
Comments
No, I don't think you are being confusing, but the question you put is a difficult one, because, of course, we believe that being in the Church and receiving its sacraments is the path to salvation, it is the spiritual hospital in which we receive the best treatment. There is no salvation except through Christ, and we know Him, and the Father, through the Church.
Does that mean other Christians cannot be saved? Who can dare say that? Only God knows who will be saved - He is the only just judge, and that is why we ask Him to judge us according to His will, not our merits; if it were the last, we should none of us be saved. We know where the Church is, and where salvation is; we do not presume to say where the Church is not and what the will of God is towards those who are not in the Church.
That said, if you know where the best hospital is, and where the best treatment is to be obtained, wouldn't you want to be in that hospital?
I am sure others will join us here and give us better guidance, but I hope this helps.
In Christ,
John
When you write whilst tempted to agree, I wonder whether the limitations you mention do not apply here? What, after all, are the 'fundamental principles' if not Orthodoxy?
If you do not have sacramentally recognised baptism, if you do not receive the sacraments of the Church, i.e. if you are outside the Church, can you be saved? Of course, God can choose whom He will save, and no man can presume to know His mind; but Our Lord seemed pretty firm about the likely fate of those outside of the Church.
Of course, as we have discussed elsewhere, the precise boundaries and nature of the Church are not always as clear as we might sometimes think.
In Christ,
John
Dear EpNomos EnTaio,
When you write whilst tempted to agree, I wonder whether the limitations you mention do not apply here? What, after all, are the 'fundamental principles' if not Orthodoxy?
If you do not have sacramentally recognised baptism, if you do not receive the sacraments of the Church, i.e. if you are outside the Church, can you be saved? Of course, God can choose whom He will save, and no man can presume to know His mind; but Our Lord seemed pretty firm about the likely fate of those outside of the Church.
Of course, as we have discussed elsewhere, the precise boundaries and nature of the Church are not always as clear as we might sometimes think.
In Christ,
John
I disagree actually here cos, you know i do feel the Holy Spirit working in others, which means they must be baptised!
THe Coptic CHurch is simply open/exclusive to Egyptian born people. How can u expect our faith to propagate when our very name is binding our faith to our country.
Is this fair??? People hear the word of God, and because they didnt decide to become coptic, all of a sudden they are doomed even though they let the Spirit direct their lives and they live by the Word of God???
Is that fair??
Is heaven solely exclusive for Copts??? and Orthodox Christians only!?? Protestants are all doomed, no matter what they do!??
THe Coptic CHurch is simply open/exclusive to Egyptian born people. How can u expect our faith to propagate when our very name is binding our faith to our country.
how can you preach to other outside if the inside people are not fully faithful yet. Christ commanded His apostles to first go to Lost ones of Israel and than sameria and than the rest of the world. The Coptic church, being coptic/egyptian have to first take care of her own and than look at the outside. and i personaly thing that this has been done.
look where you are, and look where everyone on this forum is. ouotside egypt where there are many coptic churchs and belivers every where in the world. than God is the one who will consider this on judgement day. and will judge those who had rrefused the chanse to help them know Him. on the other hand, if the coptic faith was presented to them in it's right manner and they refuse it, than it will be held against them in heaven. there is a post about "Salvation"
u'll have ur answer there
The Sacraments are requirements (4 of the 7 anyway) to get into Heaven. If one does not partake of the Sacraments (and valid Sacraments at that), they cannot partake in Christ (Christ Himself has said this). Now, we all know where the Church (and thus by default the Spirit) is. It is found in the Orthodox Church. However, we do not know where the Church (and thus by default, the Spirit) isn't. Are Protestants doomed because they are outside the Church? That is an question only God can answer. He is the final Authority on this matter.
i agree.
but one thing....you need 5 out of 7 sacraments to get to heaven.
Confession
Baptism
Anointing of the Mayron
Eucharist
Anointing of the Sick (Unction Prayer)
Marriage
Priesthood
Are you sure that the Unction of the Sick is necessary for Salvation? I was under the impression that, as the name suggests, it was only performed if one were sick (and I assume physically sick).
Here is an excerpt from HG Bishop Mattaous' book, 'Sacramental Rites in the Coptic Orthodox Church':
now in my opinion, who deosn't get sick.
another thing i was taught that the prayer is not only for those who are already sick but it's also done as a protection prayer.
People often misunderstand the point being made. We would all like to be able to say 'hey, every good person is saved, God is love, after all, so why not?' That is a very western liberal attitude; it may even be correct, in as far as only God knows who He will save. But as you write, we have pretty clear statements from Our Lord about what is needful to be saved; we need to repent; we need to amend our lives; we need to walk in His way; we need to be part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (which means receiving the four sacraments you mentioned). Even if we do all those things, we are not 'guaranteed' salvation; again, only God can decide; but we put ourselves in the way of Truth and Life, and we have His assurance that He will speak for us.
This is not to be 'narrow-minded', nor yet to blaspheme by taking on God's role of deciding who will be saved. It is, I hope, to represent the position which the Orthodox Church has taken from the start. Does it make western liberal uncomfortable? Probably, but please understand no one is saying that Catholics and Protestants will not be saved - because only the Lord God can make that decision.
I feel sure that many who are 'sure' they will be 'saved' will not be, and many who think they will not will be; I am sure of this because, sinners that we are, we get things wrong all the time. That is why we need Our Mother the Church to guide our faltering steps.
In Christ,
John
What the Church does, as been said, is that it does not define where it is not; but since we know where it is, it is best to be there with it. What I was trying to do was not to arrogate to myself what is God's. But we know what Our Lord says in the Bible, and it is sure that those whose sins are not remitted here on earth will not have them remitted hereafter; that is a sobering thought.
In Christ,
John
firstly, i belive that many of you are not understanding the importance of this film
we as christians, must be able to defend our faith, under any circumstance
whenever christ was given a question, he replied with an answer that was totally logical
even if these answers that we give don't make sence, we must remember that god is god
he defys the laws of physics, the laws of matter, the laws of medicine.
he is GOD. When that is said and done, any illogical answer can be made logical
I Noticed somthing about the second film
every step that he is saying was completly misinterpreted by him
To hate everybody means to not love them as much as Jesus
not to despise them
to sell everything is impossible
but if this fool looked at matthew 19:26, he would learn that with god, all things are possible
not only that, but there are Monks and saints that gave up nearly everything to be with god
To Eat flesh and Drink blood is a metaphor
Christ is Our Passover lamb and in jewish tradition, you were to eat the passover lamb to be saved
by Christ asking us to do this, we have to remember that he was coming to fullfil the law
to Make ourselves as children is a metaphor as well
we are supposed to take on the attributes of a child
not caring about money, being dependant on our father, being worrieless
the born again is a symbol of baptism
the mothers womb is the womb of the church, our true mother
back then there were no instruments to tell where the wind was coming or going from
the symbols followed by the pharisees in the old testament are still followed today, but in diffrent formats
Jesus did know what he was talking about
Others didn't
this guy is one of them
Interestingly enough, this webpage is from from an Eastern Orthodox Bishop (Metropolitan). I think it is akin to how we respond and it does resonate what Anglican said before. However, if people disagree, please respond and tell me why. I agree with the website, but that is my opinion and that is not the approach to understanding truth. So if there was a definitive response from our Church, I would like to hear it (and adhere to it).
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx
but we should pray for him so God may enlighten his ,ind!!
/
mahareel
plzz p4m sister in Christ
I do not think that Christianity and going to heaven can be boiled down to a formula; as the creator of this video suggests. According to Christian faith God knows the hearts of men and women and demands different things with regards to different individuals. For this to be the case a relationship must be forged. For this reason, Christianity is a personal relationship foged with the Creator.
The reason he finds contradictions is because of the above reasons. How inauthentic would the faith be if it was a cookbook or formula! The Jews of the Old Testament saw spirituality in this way; and predictably the faith of the fathers became superficial and perverted!
So now, here is my next thought / question:
The maker of the 2nd Video had problems with the fact that certain passages in Luke 10 and Luke 18 contradicted each other. But in context to what I said earlier; how then are they contradictions?
Besides, are contradictions in the Bible such a bad thing? The reason I ask, is because human beings value things that make sense; And things that make sense have arguments that support each other with no contradictory arguments. This is what basic human rationale and logic demands.
But! Is it such a bad thing that the Bible contains contradictions? (Rather; the question should be; Does the Bible contain contradictions? and can we prove this?)
A few verses come to mind concerning this:
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.' Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."
1 Corinthians 1:18-25
"Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" --- Here, is not the wisdom of this world the capacity for logical reasoning and inquiry?
How can you make human logic and reasoning into foolishness?
"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."
Why would God want us to believe a foolish message? Did he not create us to have the capacity for inquiry and thought? Do we not have a nature of being critical about all that we see and hear? So why would God want us to abandon our critical nature?
just do ur best in helping them to know the truth in waht u believe if they are not game enough to give it a go its there doom if somer one does any thing as little as beieve in wisdiom of proverbs welcome him with a open mind and present ur self as one who will be judged harder then him cause u know soooo much more than tat poor chap and be thier utmost firend did nt God warn st Anthony not to wonder on such trevial matters but rather be aboslutely concerned about u salvation now if he was a saint where does that put u my friend
perhaps an excuse to be lax and lazy hope not
leave that which doesnt concern u at all to others and concentrate on climbin the spiritual ladder.
God BELSS
My parents are- I digress, let’s depict it more amiably: you might mistake their BMI for their age. Ok, that was quite an exaggeration, but you probably get my gist.
Initially, I told them that their eating habits increase the propensity for cardiovascular disease. They countered that they should enjoy life while they are still living.
After some deliberation, I knew I had to be a bit more tactful; I instead argued that their eating habits is overindulgence. They riposted that they have many iniquities to worry about and that their eating habits are on par with the rest of the Western world. Subsequent to futile efforts to show that such an argument by numbers is fallacious, and in stark contrast to the message we read after the Pauline Epistle, it became quite apparent that my strategy had to change.
So until I developed or even thought about how I would go about doing this, I hoped ad nauseum would do the trick. Of course, it didn’t. Before they would have desert, I would characteristically object, pointing out that they already had a smoothie before and other sweets and nuts. I thought I might make them petulant, always referring to the fat and carbohydrate content of each food item and declaring, “that has the caloric content of a meal, and you are just having that as a snack”.
Yes, it didn’t work. They started using Xenical (Orlistat; medicine that decreases fat absorption), but that just reassured them that they can persist in their eating habits. So I decided, being the Machivillian person I am to appeal to- well- me. I argued, “how do you think I will feel when you are old and having heart disease and I have to take care of you”; “how do you think you will feel if I emulated you, and I get a fatty liver, a heart attack, a stroke, ….”; “if you can’t show control, how am I suppose to have confidence that I can in the future.” And so the manipulation continued.
Mind you, even though I eventually was able to do it with a poker face, it was fruitless.
So, what on earth has this to do with this thread? I am trying to show that logic is only going to get you so far. You have to be willing; to see that there is a problem and something needs to change before you accept certain things.
This is no different to the people we cross paths, and even ourselves. I am very resistant to Christian doctrine because I don’t want to get out of my safe zone; to give alms to the poor (instead of getting the new PSP game) and the list goes on. The people we meet may be no different. Unless they are seekers, it is most likely in vain if you try to argue about contradictions etc. Even if contradictions did not exist in the Scriptures, do you think that they would be converts (some of them will because in the seeking process to repudiate the Scriptures they found they were in need of grace)?
If they are unrepentant, then they are like the thorns in which seed is thrown. Don’t expect anything- they are not ready.
The only thing we can do is witness Christianity with our actions; and remember the world hates goodness, but through the Holy Spirit this person may reject the world and decide to follow your Shepherd. There is a place for debates, I think. Alister McGrath converted back from Athiesm when he realized that in-fact that Christianity can make sense of the material world and his own spiritual world. To quote C.S.Lewis, "Reality, in fact, is always something you couldn't have guessed. That's one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It's a religion you couldn't have guessed." and "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."
Maybe if I can show my parents that I enjoy life without the Krispy Kreme doughnuts, the smoothies, the Darrel Lea road rocket chocolate, Ferro roche pieces, pieces of cake, basbousa- then perhaps they might consider. :P
To further ponder on what was previously said, I believe that when metaphysics is concerned, seeming contradiction should be expected due to the constraints of language. For instance, ask a chemist and a physicist to describe the physical world- both descriptions would probably be different, but they are not wrong either, they just can not completely articulate with the words and concepts they know about what is before them.
The Scriptures, however, are from witnesses that have been entrusted the oracles of God, and are thus through tradition the best place to begin to comprehend the intricacies of God and man, as spiritual beings.
The guy on the video doesn't know what he is saying. He is an athiest that is ignorant therfore doesn't wan't to know about the God side of the argument and hasn't researched.
He mentioned verses from the bible but doesn't know what they mean and inturprets them in the way that would suit him so he can carry out his argument.
The thing that i don't get about athiests is that they like to attack even without evidence. Couldn't the just keep quiet. I mean they don't have to believe in God but at least stop insulting those who do. I have experienced stuff like that even in school say..... in the uk.
The only thig we can do is to not be affected by all this nonsense and pray for every one that Christ would reveal himself to them.
pray 4 me
Kirolos
In Christ,
Anglian