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Elijah and Anok

davidschanterdavidschanter
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Where did Elijah and Anok go initially?
Paradise was not open. Heaven was not open.
Were they sent to Hades? Could a holy chariot go to hades?
Or were they a possible exception to be allowed to enter paradise or heaven?
Wasn't Jesus the first human to open both heaven and paradise? or is it just heaven?

sorry for alot of questions

Comments

  • egy
    what i do know is thatthey never died, they were rose up to heaven i {think}

    the onlything that i am sure about is that the 12 disciplies saw them with God
    good question--i never really thouht about it    pp4m

    EgY
  • davidschanterdavidschanter
    yea the problem i have with it is that we always say that the purpose of the ascension was for Jesus to open the gates of heaven. And the period bet. death and resurrection was for opening paradise. I dont even know why we do that "play" during the resurrection liturgy when i think it should be done on ascension.
    I think there would be no purpose to ascension if they went to heaven.
  • stgeorgebrooklyn23stgeorgebrooklyn23
    when i was in church a lil while ago, some1 asked abouna like the same quetion i think, and  i think that they said that like they never died, and there body is still here, but sorry for confusin you lol, but ill ask them on sunday and find out--but this is for only the 1st question...
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear davidschanter,
    Through resurrection, God opened the gates of Hades, and let His people out, releasing them from the slavery of death, and giving them eternal life, and this is what the hymn says. The question about paradise and heaven is a very delicate one, and I am not sure if I can give any answer to that. But the power of God appeared in Him defeating death and satan on Resurrection Day: that is why we play the re-enactment in the Resurrection Liturgy.
    I hope I explained a very little bit of your questions.
    God bless you and mention me in your prayers
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear davidschanter,
    Through resurrection, God opened the gates of Hades, and let His people out, releasing them from the slavery of death, and giving them eternal life, and this is what the hymn says. The question about paradise and heaven is a very delicate one, and I am not sure if I can give any answer to that. But the power of God appeared in Him defeating death and satan on Resurrection Day: that is why we play the re-enactment in the Resurrection Liturgy.
    I hope I explained a very little bit of your questions.
    God bless you and mention me in your prayers
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    As far as I know, both Elijah and Enoch are still alive.  They have not died yet.  They are somewhere on earth (where all living beings are) hidden away somewhere by God until the appointed day when they will appear as is talked about in Revelation.  Regarding Heaven/Hell and Paradise/Hades, I have heard that at this present time, both Heaven and Hell are inaccessible.  They will only become accessible after the final judgment.  After Christ's crucifixion and descent into Hades, the souls of the just were taken up to Paradise (as Christ told the good thief, 'This day you will be with Me in Paradise'), whereas the souls of the unjust remained in Hades. The only human in Heaven right now is the Man Jesus Christ.
  • Unknown
    As Kefas said, they are neither in paradise nor hades. Both of these are places for those who have departed this life. Elias and Enoch, however, never tasted death but were taken up into heaven alive.

    The Apocalypse of St. John (11:3-12) shows how they will return to Jerusalem in the end times to prophecy, suffer death, and after three and a half days will rise again and ascend into heaven:


    "And I will give to My witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, having been clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and two lampstands, the ones standing before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone doth wish to injure them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devoureth their enemies. And if anyone doth wish to injure them in this manner it is necessary for him to be killed. These have authority to shut the heaven, so that the rain may not moisten in the days of their prophecy; and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to smite the earth with every plague as often as they wish. And whenever they finish their testimony, the beast, the one ascending out of the abyss, shall make war against them and shall overcome them and shall kill them. And their fall shall be upon the broad street of the city, the great one, which is called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. And they of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do look upon their fall three and a half days, and shall not allow their corpses to be put into a sepulcher. And the ones dwelling on the earth rejoice over them; and they shall make merry and shall send gifts to one another, because these, the two prophets, tormented those dwelling on the earth. And after three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those looking at them. And I heard a loud voice out of the heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud, and their enemies looked at them.

  • davidschanterdavidschanter
    elijah and Anok cannot still be on earth. One was taken up in a chariot. but where did it go?
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Why exactly can they not be on Earth?  Enoch walked with God and was no more, according to Genesis and Elijah was taken up in a fiery chariot.  Those statements do not necessarily mean that they went to Heaven and are no longer on Earth.  Heaven is completely inaccessible at this time and will only be accessible after the final judgment.  Since Elijah and Enoch are still very much alive, they cannot be in Paradise or Hades as those are locations for the souls of the just or the damned (respectively).  Thus, the only place (logically speaking) that they can be is here on Earth, hidden away until the time appointed for them to appear.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5370.msg71579#msg71579 date=1180555408]
    Since Elijah and Enoch are still very much alive, they cannot be in Paradise or Hades as those are locations for the souls of the just or the damned (respectively).  Thus, the only place (logically speaking) that they can be is here on Earth, hidden away until the time appointed for them to appear.


    When we are told that Enoch and Elias were taking into heaven, it is simply referring to the sky. It is not refering to the place of eternal bliss where the souls of the righteous will end up after the general resurrection.

    Where Enoch and Elias are right now is unknown. All we know is that they were taken up into heaven (the sky), are still alive, and will return at the end of days. But I see no need to conclude that they are present somewhere on earth based on the fact that the Kingdom of Heaven is unnatainable prior to the final Resurrection.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5370.msg71579#msg71579 date=1180555408]
    Enoch walked with God and was no more, according to Genesis and Elijah was taken up in a fiery chariot.

    Kefas, can you please give us the refrense from the bible for the Enoch disappreance.
    also i don't think they are on earth. becasue with Elijah, it cleary says he was taken up in a fiery chriot to heaven. he wouldn't go up if he's on earth. if it says he's in heaven than he is. and yes ur right heaven is inaccessible...for those who died thoo. but Elijah and Enock never tasted death (as it was said before), they were taken up by God becasue they were worthy enough. since they didn't tasted death the heaven ruly doesn't apply on them.

    this only my own understanding...am sure if we search enough we can find a saying of a father or HH or any of the books.
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Kefas, can you please give us the refrense from the bible for the Enoch disappreance.

    The reference to Enoch's disappearance is found in Genesis 5:24.  Now I realize that when 'heaven' is used in talking about Elijah, it does not refer to the Heaven of heavens (or the Kingdom of Heaven or Heaven).  That being said, we are told that Elisha saw Elijah taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot.  I do not think it is too much to assume that Elijah was carried away and then dropped off somewhere else.  I mean, his would not be the first case of a human being taken up out of sight in front of another human and then transported somewhere else (this did happen to Philip after he baptized the eunuch in Acts).  The only reason I tend to think they are on Earth is because, as we all agree, they have not died.  They are still very much alive and thus possess the same flesh we do.  Since they are in the same 'state of being' (if you will) as we are, I see no reason why they would not be in the same place (i.e. Earth) as us.  That is just my reasoning.
  • davidschanterdavidschanter
    So they were not taken to heaven and given the ability to stay alive until needed, but somehow they recieved the powers to sustain life on earth waiting until the end? It doesn't say that in the bible.
  • mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
    This post my dear brother davidchanter was not made just for you for this topic was a problem for me.. even before this post came about

    If it says elijah went to heaven doesn't that mean he went to heaven? but maybe there are parts in heaven where you don't see Gods glory.. what is the third heaven st paul talked about?

    Why couldn't elijah and enoch just go to hades if hades is not a place of torment for the righteous but just a waiting place..? but hades might only be for dead people..  why then did God not just kill elijah and enoch unless He has other purposes.. maybe they are still somewhere preparing for the great task they will have to do...
    does the devil really have control over the righteous souls in hades?
    why must elijah and enoch die since if they are still alive now and Jesus has already defeated death? if elijah and enoch went to paradise atleast by now since Jesus has already died then they will have to leave their comfort zone and die on earth like Jesus..
    I don't think all must die for a website reminded me that those who remain on earth when Christ returns will be caught up and not experience death.. but elijah and enoch will die for the glory of God to be good witnesses.. for God will raise them again like He raised our LORD Jesus.. but still they might have to die for some reason I am not aware of now


    people could not enter paradise before Jesus death because people were still guilty before God the blood of jesus which takes away the sin of the world was not shed.. because they were guilty they could not enter Gods presence because He is holy right?
    or is there another reason?

    But since Jesus is God how come people could enter Jesus' presence on earth even though He was holy? I guess they just can not enter the presence of His full holy glory which He did not express on earth.. I guess elijah and enoch could see God in a form God chooses to express Himself like the Angel of God..
    But in even still noone will be able to see the full Glory of God will they? but then what do they see?

    How do we know it is Enoch and not say Moses who will be the other witness? he and elijah appeared on the mount of transfiguration.. we know elijah will be one for the LORD Jesus said truly Elijah will come but elijah has already come (John the Baptist)
    I guess God might not let Moses die again.. but he might of had a painless death before so He might
    How come Moses appeared (was it in bodily form?) on the mount of transfiguration.. didn't he go to hades?







  • davidschanterdavidschanter
    Well i think we can eliminate paradise and heaven because they still possessed original sin from Adam. In no way is sin allowed in these holy places (if i am wrong please let me know). Maybe they went somewhere in the universe in another galaxy far far away in far far away galaxy. The point is, i don't think we will ever get the answer to this question because maybe we are missing some information about how the heavens work. I just remembered that the bible has no mistakes, but it could be missing things.
    They were never baptized from what i remember, and the only thing that distinguishes them from us is that they were extremely righteous, and chosen like Mary the mother of God was chosen. So I guess the questions are:
    Are they sinless at this point?
    Do they need to be baptized?
    Are they allowed to enter heaven or paradise?
    Are we too limited inknowledge to know where they went initially?

    pray for me
  • mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
    I doubt they were sinless like St Mary because then we would praise them equally like we praise St Mary
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear all,
    Was St. Mary sinless?
    God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=5370.msg71784#msg71784 date=1180837000]
    I doubt they were sinless like St Mary because then we would praise them equally like we praise St Mary


    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=5370.msg71789#msg71789 date=1180880992]
    Dear all,
    Was St. Mary sinless?
    God bless you all and mention me in your prayers



    St. Mary was not in anyway sinless. this is a Catholic dogma that is was discussed many times. u can find many posts about this.
  • Unknown
    St. Mary was not conceived without original sin as the Catholic doctrine erronously asserts.

    However, it is true that she, by God's grace, never sinned in word, deed or thought.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear minagir, and orthodox11,
    Thanks for clarifying. I think I do believe in this.
    God bless you and mention me in your prayers
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    [quote author=davidschanter link=topic=5370.msg71761#msg71761 date=1180742154]
    So they were not taken to heaven and given the ability to stay alive until needed, but somehow they recieved the powers to sustain life on earth waiting until the end? It doesn't say that in the bible.


    It doesn't say the opposite either.  Please bear in mind that the Bible serves a purpose, and that purpose is to reveal God's plan of salvation (and the fulfillment of that plan) for mankind.  It is not a biography and should not be viewed as one.  As such, not all the details are going to be found in the Bible.  That being said, since Elijah and Enoch have not died and thus still possess a physical human body, it makes sense to me that they would still be on earth.  Is it beyond God to allow these men to remain alive all this time and hide them away on this planet?  I don't think so.
  • mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
    I read something in the bible today

    It was about John the Beloved Disciple of Jesus..

    When Peter said to Jesus what about John (Will he die a martyrs death? or something) Jesus said .. what is that to you .. If I will that he remain till I come what is that to you or something.. and it became popular among the brethren that John would not die

    (KJV) John 21:23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 21&version=9


    He John is the one who wrote revelations and wrote about the two witnesses.. I do not think one of the two witnesses is John but I think possibly from this Jesus was hinting that someone or some people would not die till his second coming.. maybe He was hinting to Elijah and Enoch.. (but we can never know for sure).. but will Elijah and Enoch (if they are the two witnesses) remain till Jesus comes back? or will they ascend to heaven before Jesus comes back?
    Ah but maybe Jesus was not hinting to Elijah and Enoch since they will be killed but still maybe He was..
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=5370.msg72113#msg72113 date=1181225664]
    I read something in the bible today

    It was about John the Beloved Disciple of Jesus..

    When Peter said to Jesus what about John (Will he die a martyrs death? or something) Jesus said .. what is that to you .. If I will that he remain till I come what is that to you or something.. and it became popular among the brethren that John would not die

    (KJV) John 21:23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 21&version=9


    He John is the one who wrote revelations and wrote about the two witnesses.. I do not think one of the two witnesses is John but I think possibly from this Jesus was hinting that someone or some people would not die till his second coming.. maybe He was hinting to Elijah and Enoch.. (but we can never know for sure).. but will Elijah and Enoch (if they are the two witnesses) remain till Jesus comes back? or will they ascend to heaven before Jesus comes back?
    Ah but maybe Jesus was not hinting to Elijah and Enoch since they will be killed but still maybe He was..



    I don’t think this refers to Elijah and Enoch

    I'll try to translate parts of what Fr. Tadros wrote in his book about this part of the Gospel:

    About verse 22,
    Some say that Jesus wanted to explain that St. John will not die as a martyr for others say that he was the only one of the disciples who was not martyred.
    When Jesus say, "till I come," it doesn't mean he wont die till His second coming, but it's a way to rebuke St. Peter upon his love to curiosity and caring for the future events instead of caring for preaching.
    Other say that it meant that St. John wont die till the destruction of Jerusalem. For St. Peter was martyred 67 AD which is 7 years before the destruction, but St. John stay alive after 30 yrs of it's destruction.
    Another saying was that St. Peter loved St. John so much that he didn't want to leave him. So Christ showed him how is greater love should be to him not to St. John.
    One main saying is that the rest of the disciples were the ones who said that St. John won’t die....not Jesus.

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