The very question, what happens if you break up is, again, culturally conditioned. In the west in most quarters the answer is 'so what?' In Egypt and other cultures of the east, this would be a matter of grave import.
It is best, always, to treat one's beloved with respect. Certainly when I was a young man I remember being told off by my aunt for holding hands with my fiancee in public - and that was a month before our wedding. If I were to do that to my step-daughters they'd think I had lost it - so much has changed in the past 30 years.
In Christ,
John
Bonjour John,
Im SO surprised to hear all this. I actually was of the impression that its best not to kiss because it could lead to other stuff, and so why chance it?
But this seems to be a completely different argument. You don't see a problem that if you break up, then you'd have given all your emotions to someone?
This then perhaps is cultural as I'm aware that egyptians cannot bear to know that their partner was touched by someone else.
But in the west, everyone is happy to marry someone that wasn't only touched, but even "touched a lot" (lol) and it doesnt make a difference. I guess its just a kiss!??? Right???
This girl at school once kissed me, and she ran away. I was so shocked.. I was only 12 years old. In fact she even got some guys to hold me... lol.. anyway, i told this story to some egyptian girl cos she asked me if i had a girlfriend or not, and I said : "well... i never had a gf before, but this girl did kiss me, but it was in the hall of my school". This egyptian girl went CRAZY!! It was as if i was telling her that I had adultary. I tried to explain.... I said :"Yeah.. but but but but but but .... but... it was at school... it wasnt even my fault.... i didnt know WHAT she was going to do....."
So, yeah... perhaps its just cultural!??? not sure...
[quote author=katz903 link=topic=5386.msg72149#msg72149 date=1181241954] I'm pretty certain that it's okay to kiss or french kiss your fiance, just as long as it doesnt go too far...
Im engaged to marry a most beautiful orthodox girl. She's amazing. If i told her this, she'd kill me!! Actually, i just told her right now, and she started to shout at me: "She totally disagrees". So, given that she's very orthodox AND VERY western, (She's French), i'd still have to agree with HizzCHild.
I think a small kiss now and again is OK... but not too much. You should do things in a way that honour her.
Did it occur to ANYONE why i was asking all these questions?? lol
As for the questions; well, let me tell u, she's an architect, and after asking her the question "what kind of house would u build, her answer blew me away".
God bless u all, and I hope somehow u can benefit from this site to guide you all in your lives. Asking questions is ALL you have to know a person. THere's NEVER enough questions one can not ask.
Don't spend time kissing, spend time talking and communicating... its far more important.
How fortunate you are in your fiancee; may you both be blessed with many years and much happiness. In the words of the traditional Celtic blessing: [center]
May the road rise to meet you May the wind be always at your back The sun shine warm upon your face The rains fall soft upon your fields And until we meet again, May God hold you in the hollow of his hand
[/center]
In the final analysis, from the Christian point of view, what matters is that you both honour reach other and treat each other with respect, remembering always that you are both made in the image of God, but that you, like all of us, inherit the stain of sin, which mars that image. Living the Christian life will help restore that image, and help you both to see in each other that which we all seek.
How fortunate you are in your fiancee; may you both be blessed with many years and much happiness. In the words of the traditional Celtic blessing: [center]
May the road rise to meet you May the wind be always at your back The sun shine warm upon your face The rains fall soft upon your fields And until we meet again, May God hold you in the hollow of his hand
[/center]
In the final analysis, from the Christian point of view, what matters is that you both honour reach other and treat each other with respect, remembering always that you are both made in the image of God, but that you, like all of us, inherit the stain of sin, which mars that image. Living the Christian life will help restore that image, and help you both to see in each other that which we all seek.
John, Is showing physical signs of affection before marriage honouring each other or not?
I mean... for me, the greatest honour is marrying her. You can't do more honour to a girl than marrying her.
WHen Christ took flesh, he honoured our nature through Him. THat's what abouna says in the liturgy. Its when he took our nature. When He took our nature and purchased us with His Blood, He honoured us.
So, surely if someone marries - this is the honour?
If I may, I'd like to ask if you could specify what exactly you mean by 'showing physical signs of affection'. In the end, you will get different answers from different people based on how they were raised/taught/think themselves. There are certain physical signs which are forbidden (and I think we all know what those are). As for others, there is no concrete answer as to 'yes such and such an act is okay' or 'no such and such an act is bad'.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5386.msg73371#msg73371 date=1182873399] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
If I may, I'd like to ask if you could specify what exactly you mean by 'showing physical signs of affection'. In the end, you will get different answers from different people based on how they were raised/taught/think themselves. There are certain physical signs which are forbidden (and I think we all know what those are). As for others, there is no concrete answer as to 'yes such and such an act is okay' or 'no such and such an act is bad'.
I, personally, having grown up in Western society, see nothing wrong with holding hands or hugging a person. I'm certain there are others that do not agree. They will argue that such things can lead to greater intimacy. Again, it boils down to how you've been brought up.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5386.msg73374#msg73374 date=1182873779] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
I, personally, having grown up in Western society, see nothing wrong with holding hands or hugging a person. I'm certain there are others that do not agree. They will argue that such things can lead to greater intimacy. Again, it boils down to how you've been brought up.
So u agree that kissing a fiance on his/her lips is OK?
Me personally? I see no problem with it. So long as the couples are in agreement about what is acceptable and what isn't in their relationship, it is up to them.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5386.msg73378#msg73378 date=1182874249] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Me personally? I see no problem with it. So long as the couples are in agreement about what is acceptable and what isn't in their relationship, it is up to them.
This is interesting.
So, what then for you is "out of limits" ???
At what point would u say to yourself "Oh dear, i've gone too far"?
For me, french kissing and beyond is going to far. A kiss on the lips can be innocent enough, but anything more can result in the situation getting heated, which in turn, can lead to something more than was originally intended.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5386.msg73382#msg73382 date=1182874839] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
For me, french kissing and beyond is going to far. A kiss on the lips can be innocent enough, but anything more can result in the situation getting heated, which in turn, can lead to something more than was originally intended.
OK, but at what point is going too far?? I mean, what has to happen for u to know that you've gone too far?
You guys are talking about kissing...eww. that is disgusting....
And french kissing, that's like spitting into each other's mouth. yuck.
Lol.
I think personally in the slippery slope argument that kissing will lead to this that and the other. I don't know. Some people want to have ways of showing intimacy- something that distinguishes them more than friends. But in finding ways to be intimate, there may be an urge to become more and more intimate. Hmmm...it would be funny to think that before marriage you don't touch your fiancee to holding hands, hugs, kisses etc. in just one day.
Once you've reached that point, you'll know. Every person is different, and every person reacts to a situation differently. Rest assured though, as long as you keep God in the midst of your relationship, you will know when you've crossed the line and you've gone too far. It'll be something inside you, whether it's just a feeling or a voice, that tells you 'Woah, wait a minute, we're going too far here'. There really isn't any other way to explain it.
[quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=5386.msg73385#msg73385 date=1182875008] You guys are talking about kissing...eww. that is disgusting....
And french kissing, that's like spitting into each other's mouth. yuck.
Lol.
I think personally in the slippery slope argument that kissing will lead to this that and the other. I don't know. Some people want to have ways of showing intimacy- something that distinguishes them more than friends. But in finding ways to be intimate, there may be an urge to become more and more intimate. Hmmm...it would be funny to think that before marriage you don't touch your fiancee to holding hands, hugs, kisses etc. in just one day.
Oh no... I wasnt talking about French kissing. I think that's very intimate anyway. No no ... Knfoc and I are on the same wavelength.
I truly think you will. If you truly love your significant other, and you truly pray that your relationship will be a reflection of God's love for His Church, then you will hear this voice. Remember, no one wants two people to love each other as deeply as an engaged couple does more than God. This love gives us a glimpse of the infinite love He has for us. As such, so long as you both cling to Him, seek His guidance, you will not stray, and you will know when you've gone too far.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5386.msg73392#msg73392 date=1182875428] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
I truly think you will. If you truly love your significant other, and you truly pray that your relationship will be a reflection of God's love for His Church, then you will hear this voice. Remember, no one wants two people to love each other as deeply as an engaged couple does more than God. This love gives us a glimpse of the infinite love He has for us. As such, so long as you both cling to Him, seek His guidance, you will not stray, and you will know when you've gone too far.
Well... I think its wise to put limits actually just in case u don't hear that voice.
Oh absolutely. It is vital that you speak with your significant other and agree on what limits you should set. Communication is one of the cornerstones in a successful marriage (or any relationship for that matter). I mean, what you may find acceptable, she may not and vice versa. That is why, talking with her is important. It's great to see what others think about how far is too far, but it won't necessarily be applicable to you. What is applicable to you is what you and she agree on.
Such a discussion can be an important part of a developing relationship; it is good that at every stage both of you are comfortable with such matters. Men ought to beware, however, of inadvertently putting too much pressure on their fiancee; make sure she is really comfortable and is not just agreeing with you to make you happy.
Since one of them is 21 in a few weeks and the other is 25, they are both at the stage where I can only hope that what they know to be right is what they will do in their lives. As you know, here in the west, the custom is not for fathers to specify what their daughters can, and cannot do.
So, what we have tried to do, is to bring them up to know right from wrong, and to have respect for themselves. Like most western young women they date, but the younger one has had the same boyfriend since she was 17, and it is quite clear that they intend to get married when her studies are finished; I have to trust her to do what she knows to be right.
The older daughter has just had a long-term relationship break down and never wants to see another 'boy' again!
I found what byrdele wrote on the other thread about dating very profoundly true, and I am sure both my daughters would relate to it. But what I would 'allow' them to do is not quite the way we play it - it is more about what they have been brought up to know is right - and then their ability to apply it.
Comments
Dear Vassilios,
I am in agreement with Κηφᾶς.
The very question, what happens if you break up is, again, culturally conditioned. In the west in most quarters the answer is 'so what?' In Egypt and other cultures of the east, this would be a matter of grave import.
It is best, always, to treat one's beloved with respect. Certainly when I was a young man I remember being told off by my aunt for holding hands with my fiancee in public - and that was a month before our wedding. If I were to do that to my step-daughters they'd think I had lost it - so much has changed in the past 30 years.
In Christ,
John
Bonjour John,
Im SO surprised to hear all this. I actually was of the impression that its best not to kiss because it could lead to other stuff, and so why chance it?
But this seems to be a completely different argument. You don't see a problem that if you break up, then you'd have given all your emotions to someone?
This then perhaps is cultural as I'm aware that egyptians cannot bear to know that their partner was touched by someone else.
But in the west, everyone is happy to marry someone that wasn't only touched, but even "touched a lot" (lol) and it doesnt make a difference. I guess its just a kiss!??? Right???
This girl at school once kissed me, and she ran away. I was so shocked.. I was only 12 years old. In fact she even got some guys to hold me... lol.. anyway, i told this story to some egyptian girl cos she asked me if i had a girlfriend or not, and I said : "well... i never had a gf before, but this girl did kiss me, but it was in the hall of my school". This egyptian girl went CRAZY!! It was as if i was telling her that I had adultary. I tried to explain.... I said :"Yeah.. but but but but but but .... but... it was at school... it wasnt even my fault.... i didnt know WHAT she was going to do....."
So, yeah... perhaps its just cultural!??? not sure...
I'm pretty certain that it's okay to kiss or french kiss your fiance, just as long as it doesnt go too far...
Im engaged to marry a most beautiful orthodox girl. She's amazing. If i told her this, she'd kill me!! Actually, i just told her right now, and she started to shout at me: "She totally disagrees". So, given that she's very orthodox AND VERY western, (She's French), i'd still have to agree with HizzCHild.
I think a small kiss now and again is OK... but not too much. You should do things in a way that honour her.
Did it occur to ANYONE why i was asking all these questions?? lol
As for the questions; well, let me tell u, she's an architect, and after asking her the question "what kind of house would u build, her answer blew me away".
God bless u all, and I hope somehow u can benefit from this site to guide you all in your lives. Asking questions is ALL you have to know a person. THere's NEVER enough questions one can not ask.
Don't spend time kissing, spend time talking and communicating... its far more important.
How fortunate you are in your fiancee; may you both be blessed with many years and much happiness. In the words of the traditional Celtic blessing:
[center][/center]
In the final analysis, from the Christian point of view, what matters is that you both honour reach other and treat each other with respect, remembering always that you are both made in the image of God, but that you, like all of us, inherit the stain of sin, which mars that image. Living the Christian life will help restore that image, and help you both to see in each other that which we all seek.
May He be with you both, always,
In Christ,
John
I didnt want to say before cos I was shy... lol
Yeah, but the joy is so much, i wanna tell the world. She's so cool. She's a very wise, very forgiving young lady.
Very cute too ;)
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5386.msg72182#msg72182 date=1181292902]
Dear Vassilios,
How fortunate you are in your fiancee; may you both be blessed with many years and much happiness. In the words of the traditional Celtic blessing:
[center][/center]
In the final analysis, from the Christian point of view, what matters is that you both honour reach other and treat each other with respect, remembering always that you are both made in the image of God, but that you, like all of us, inherit the stain of sin, which mars that image. Living the Christian life will help restore that image, and help you both to see in each other that which we all seek.
May He be with you both, always,
In Christ,
John
Is showing physical signs of affection before marriage honouring each other or not?
I mean... for me, the greatest honour is marrying her. You can't do more honour to a girl than marrying her.
WHen Christ took flesh, he honoured our nature through Him. THat's what abouna says in the liturgy. Its when he took our nature. When He took our nature and purchased us with His Blood, He honoured us.
So, surely if someone marries - this is the honour?
If I may, I'd like to ask if you could specify what exactly you mean by 'showing physical signs of affection'. In the end, you will get different answers from different people based on how they were raised/taught/think themselves. There are certain physical signs which are forbidden (and I think we all know what those are). As for others, there is no concrete answer as to 'yes such and such an act is okay' or 'no such and such an act is bad'.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
If I may, I'd like to ask if you could specify what exactly you mean by 'showing physical signs of affection'. In the end, you will get different answers from different people based on how they were raised/taught/think themselves. There are certain physical signs which are forbidden (and I think we all know what those are). As for others, there is no concrete answer as to 'yes such and such an act is okay' or 'no such and such an act is bad'.
Holding hands ??
a Hug?
I, personally, having grown up in Western society, see nothing wrong with holding hands or hugging a person. I'm certain there are others that do not agree. They will argue that such things can lead to greater intimacy. Again, it boils down to how you've been brought up.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
I, personally, having grown up in Western society, see nothing wrong with holding hands or hugging a person. I'm certain there are others that do not agree. They will argue that such things can lead to greater intimacy. Again, it boils down to how you've been brought up.
So u agree that kissing a fiance on his/her lips is OK?
Me personally? I see no problem with it. So long as the couples are in agreement about what is acceptable and what isn't in their relationship, it is up to them.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Me personally? I see no problem with it. So long as the couples are in agreement about what is acceptable and what isn't in their relationship, it is up to them.
This is interesting.
So, what then for you is "out of limits" ???
At what point would u say to yourself "Oh dear, i've gone too far"?
For me, french kissing and beyond is going to far. A kiss on the lips can be innocent enough, but anything more can result in the situation getting heated, which in turn, can lead to something more than was originally intended.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
For me, french kissing and beyond is going to far. A kiss on the lips can be innocent enough, but anything more can result in the situation getting heated, which in turn, can lead to something more than was originally intended.
OK, but at what point is going too far??
I mean, what has to happen for u to know that you've gone too far?
And french kissing, that's like spitting into each other's mouth. yuck.
Lol.
I think personally in the slippery slope argument that kissing will lead to this that and the other. I don't know. Some people want to have ways of showing intimacy- something that distinguishes them more than friends. But in finding ways to be intimate, there may be an urge to become more and more intimate. Hmmm...it would be funny to think that before marriage you don't touch your fiancee to holding hands, hugs, kisses etc. in just one day.
Once you've reached that point, you'll know. Every person is different, and every person reacts to a situation differently. Rest assured though, as long as you keep God in the midst of your relationship, you will know when you've crossed the line and you've gone too far. It'll be something inside you, whether it's just a feeling or a voice, that tells you 'Woah, wait a minute, we're going too far here'. There really isn't any other way to explain it.
You guys are talking about kissing...eww. that is disgusting....
And french kissing, that's like spitting into each other's mouth. yuck.
Lol.
I think personally in the slippery slope argument that kissing will lead to this that and the other. I don't know. Some people want to have ways of showing intimacy- something that distinguishes them more than friends. But in finding ways to be intimate, there may be an urge to become more and more intimate. Hmmm...it would be funny to think that before marriage you don't touch your fiancee to holding hands, hugs, kisses etc. in just one day.
Oh no... I wasnt talking about French kissing. I think that's very intimate anyway.
No no ... Knfoc and I are on the same wavelength.
You'll know.
In Christ,
John
I truly think you will. If you truly love your significant other, and you truly pray that your relationship will be a reflection of God's love for His Church, then you will hear this voice. Remember, no one wants two people to love each other as deeply as an engaged couple does more than God. This love gives us a glimpse of the infinite love He has for us. As such, so long as you both cling to Him, seek His guidance, you will not stray, and you will know when you've gone too far.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
I truly think you will. If you truly love your significant other, and you truly pray that your relationship will be a reflection of God's love for His Church, then you will hear this voice. Remember, no one wants two people to love each other as deeply as an engaged couple does more than God. This love gives us a glimpse of the infinite love He has for us. As such, so long as you both cling to Him, seek His guidance, you will not stray, and you will know when you've gone too far.
Well... I think its wise to put limits actually just in case u don't hear that voice.
Oh absolutely. It is vital that you speak with your significant other and agree on what limits you should set. Communication is one of the cornerstones in a successful marriage (or any relationship for that matter). I mean, what you may find acceptable, she may not and vice versa. That is why, talking with her is important. It's great to see what others think about how far is too far, but it won't necessarily be applicable to you. What is applicable to you is what you and she agree on.
Very wise advice.
Such a discussion can be an important part of a developing relationship; it is good that at every stage both of you are comfortable with such matters. Men ought to beware, however, of inadvertently putting too much pressure on their fiancee; make sure she is really comfortable and is not just agreeing with you to make you happy.
In Christ,
John
Since one of them is 21 in a few weeks and the other is 25, they are both at the stage where I can only hope that what they know to be right is what they will do in their lives. As you know, here in the west, the custom is not for fathers to specify what their daughters can, and cannot do.
So, what we have tried to do, is to bring them up to know right from wrong, and to have respect for themselves. Like most western young women they date, but the younger one has had the same boyfriend since she was 17, and it is quite clear that they intend to get married when her studies are finished; I have to trust her to do what she knows to be right.
The older daughter has just had a long-term relationship break down and never wants to see another 'boy' again!
I found what byrdele wrote on the other thread about dating very profoundly true, and I am sure both my daughters would relate to it. But what I would 'allow' them to do is not quite the way we play it - it is more about what they have been brought up to know is right - and then their ability to apply it.
In Christ,
John