Hello,
Does anyone here know the story of Ananias & Saphira. It says that they lied to God (before the apostles), and as such they died immediately. Why? OK.. lying isnt good, but why werent they given time to repent??
How is it we also lie and sin life and God does not take our life away as He did with them??
For example, a few pages along, some joker called Simon wanted to "purchase" the Holy Spirit or i think it was the "power" of the Holy Spirit... ok. .. so Saint Peter told him to repent (for obvious reasons), and that was that. He didnt immediately perish.
I totally udnerstand what Simon did was wrong, and he wanted this power for his own personal gain / glorification. That does not work.
But he was given the possibility of repentance. Why not so then with Ananias & Saphira???
Comments
I surely didn't!
I remembered that, and I realized who am I to make such judgments- the audacity! How can a person who makes immoral decisions everyday try the Judge?
I know your not doubting like I was, but I just want to make amends to my dear brothers and sisters who I have dismayed by my immaturity. Sure, we could identify with Job, and that is why God was merciful to him, rewarding him for his struggles.
Now to the point you raise, that is interesting. John Chyrosostom compares the two to Judas. And he makes the same contrast that you just did (Ananias and Sapphira with Simon), so I will just paste it:
Simon came and asked for this. “And when Simon
saw that through laying on of the Apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was
given, he offered them money, saying. Give me also this power, that on
whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.” (v. 18, 19.)
“The persecution,” say you, “gained strength.” True, but at that very time
to men possessed before (by a hostile power) it brought deliverance. For it
planted the miracles like a stronghold, in the heart of the enemy’s’
country. — Not even the death of Stephen quenched their rage, nay,
increased it rather: it scattered wide the teachers, so that the greater
became the discipleship. — “And there was joy.” And yet there had been
“great lamentation:” true; but mark again the good — “Of a long time” was
the deliverance. — And how came he to baptize Simon also? Just as Christ
chose Judas. — And “beholding the signs” which he did, forasmuch as the
others did not receive the (power of working) signs he durst not ask for it.
— How was it then that they did not strike him dead, as they did Ananias
and Sapphira? Because even in the old times, he that gathered sticks (on
the sabbath-day) was put to death as a warning to others (Numbers 15:32)
and in no other instance did any suffer the same fate. So too on the present
occasion, “Peter said to him, Thy money perish, because thou hast
imagined that the gift of God is to be purchased with money.” — (v. 20.)
I hope that helps.
GB
You pose a very interesting question. Here is the story of Ananias and Saphira for reference:
[quote=Acts 4:33 - 5:11]
33. And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
34. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales
35. and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.
36. Now Joseph, a Levite of Cyprian birth, who was also called Barnabas by the apostles (which translated means Son of Encouragement),
37. and who owned a tract of land, sold it and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.
1. But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
2. and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.
3. But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
4. "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
5. And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
6. The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
7. Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
8. And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."
9. Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."
10. And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
11. And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.
Now, if we look at what happened, Ananias and Saphira conspired together to deceive not just the Apostles, but the Church itself. As St. Peter clearly states, 'You have not lied to men but to God.' God knows the hearts of men, you agree? Clearly, the hearts of such people were so full of evil that they would have scoffed at the idea of repentance. Granted, it seems to us that such a punishment is extremely harsh. However, we can never understand the Wisdom of God. To lie to God is just like blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin. An example had to be set. God wanted to show the members of the Church the consequences of lying to Him. Who has the audacity to lie to God? How could anyone possibly conceive of doing such a thing?
Now, you mention the story of Simon Magnus, the sorcerer who wished to 'purchase' the Holy Spirit. His sin was not blaspheming the Holy Spirit, but as history teaches us, this man did not repent, and did not return to the true Faith. In fact, if I recall correctly, he was the founder of one of the Gnostic heresies that the Church battled against in the first century. Granted, this man was given a chance to repent, but look at what happened. He rejected the opportunity. Once again, God knows the hearts of man, and His judgments are perfect and just.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
You pose a very interesting question. Here is the story of Ananias and Saphira for reference:
[quote=Acts 4:33 - 5:11]
33. And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
34. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales
35. and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.
36. Now Joseph, a Levite of Cyprian birth, who was also called Barnabas by the apostles (which translated means Son of Encouragement),
37. and who owned a tract of land, sold it and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.
1. But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
2. and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.
3. But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
4. "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
5. And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
6. The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
7. Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
8. And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."
9. Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."
10. And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
11. And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.
Now, if we look at what happened, Ananias and Saphira conspired together to deceive not just the Apostles, but the Church itself. As St. Peter clearly states, 'You have not lied to men but to God.' God knows the hearts of men, you agree? Clearly, the hearts of such people were so full of evil that they would have scoffed at the idea of repentance. Granted, it seems to us that such a punishment is extremely harsh. However, we can never understand the Wisdom of God. To lie to God is just like blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin. An example had to be set. God wanted to show the members of the Church the consequences of lying to Him. Who has the audacity to lie to God? How could anyone possibly conceive of doing such a thing?
Now, you mention the story of Simon Magnus, the sorcerer who wished to 'purchase' the Holy Spirit. His sin was not blaspheming the Holy Spirit, but as history teaches us, this man did not repent, and did not return to the true Faith. In fact, if I recall correctly, he was the founder of one of the Gnostic heresies that the Church battled against in the first century. Granted, this man was given a chance to repent, but look at what happened. He rejected the opportunity. Once again, God knows the hearts of man, and His judgments are perfect and just.
Well one sweet second there Knfoc,
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of "Truth" - Christ is the "Truth, way and Life".
So, every lie is a blasphemy against God. ANY LIE.
How comes God doesnt make us drop dead now whenever we lie?? or lie to Him?? For example... lying to God would be not admitting I've done somethng wrong, when I know I have. So, if I've done that, why don't i just drop dead?
Now, I'm not complaining that Im not dead... nor am I saying that I happen to be a compulsive lier, but the more I look in my heart, the more I see even the things I thought i was being honest in, I wasnt actually that honest about them. Get the picture?
Not quite. A lie is a sin, that much we can agree on. As you said, the Holy Spirit is the 'Spirit of Truth' and Christ is 'the Way, the Truth and the Life'. So, when we lie, we ignore the Spirit of Truth and we ignore Christ. However, the difference between what Ananias and Saphira did, and us, is who the lie is directed to. Who are we trying to deceive? For instance, if you are grounded for whatever reason, and you are forbidden from going out, and you sneak out with your friends, and the next day your mom asks you, 'Did you go out last night' and you say 'no.' who have you lied to? Did you lie to God? No. You lied to your mother. Take a look at what Ananias and Saphira did. The person before them (Barnabas) sold a piece of land and gave all the money to the Church (not to the Apostles, but the Church of God). Ananias and Saphira sold a piece of land, kept back some of the money and then passed off the money the gave the Church as all the money. Here, they are lying to the Church, not to the Apostles. The Church is the bride of Christ established on Pentecost by the Holy Spirit. Thus, lying to the Church is lying to God. Do you see the difference?
just wanted to add that Ananias & Saphira had the chance to repent but they still lied. it says:
Acts 5:1-10
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, ......The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him. Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well." And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
St. Peter asked Saphira and she still lied. if she wouldn't of repented, wouldn't she be saved and she would of had enough faith to raise her husbend from the dead and he than would repent!!!!!
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Not quite. A lie is a sin, that much we can agree on. As you said, the Holy Spirit is the 'Spirit of Truth' and Christ is 'the Way, the Truth and the Life'. So, when we lie, we ignore the Spirit of Truth and we ignore Christ. However, the difference between what Ananias and Saphira did, and us, is who the lie is directed to. Who are we trying to deceive? For instance, if you are grounded for whatever reason, and you are forbidden from going out, and you sneak out with your friends, and the next day your mom asks you, 'Did you go out last night' and you say 'no.' who have you lied to? Did you lie to God? No. You lied to your mother. Take a look at what Ananias and Saphira did. The person before them (Barnabas) sold a piece of land and gave all the money to the Church (not to the Apostles, but the Church of God). Ananias and Saphira sold a piece of land, kept back some of the money and then passed off the money the gave the Church as all the money. Here, they are lying to the Church, not to the Apostles. The Church is the bride of Christ established on Pentecost by the Holy Spirit. Thus, lying to the Church is lying to God. Do you see the difference?
I thought all lieing was against God. It would not make sense if it wasn't
Lying is a sin, and all sin is against God. Of that, we are in agreement. However, a lie is directed at a person. You lie to someone in order to deceive them. As such, you can differentiate between lying to a person and lying to God. In the example I gave above (sneaking out at night), the person you are attempting to deceive is your mother, not God. If you are in confession with abouna, and lie, then you are lying to God. Why? Because you are now partaking in a sacrament of the Church in which God is present to forgive you your sins. If you lie about your sins in confession, then the offended party is God Himself.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5449.msg72561#msg72561 date=1181922410]
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Not quite. A lie is a sin, that much we can agree on. As you said, the Holy Spirit is the 'Spirit of Truth' and Christ is 'the Way, the Truth and the Life'. So, when we lie, we ignore the Spirit of Truth and we ignore Christ. However, the difference between what Ananias and Saphira did, and us, is who the lie is directed to. Who are we trying to deceive? For instance, if you are grounded for whatever reason, and you are forbidden from going out, and you sneak out with your friends, and the next day your mom asks you, 'Did you go out last night' and you say 'no.' who have you lied to? Did you lie to God? No. You lied to your mother. Take a look at what Ananias and Saphira did. The person before them (Barnabas) sold a piece of land and gave all the money to the Church (not to the Apostles, but the Church of God). Ananias and Saphira sold a piece of land, kept back some of the money and then passed off the money the gave the Church as all the money. Here, they are lying to the Church, not to the Apostles. The Church is the bride of Christ established on Pentecost by the Holy Spirit. Thus, lying to the Church is lying to God. Do you see the difference?
I thought all lieing was against God. It would not make sense if it wasn't
ur rit...in a way everything we do wrong is against God since we are not follwing his commandments. all of this not directly. but here in the story of Ananias and his wife, they lied to the church. not to St. Peter as if he was the one who's taking the money, but to the church becasue she was the one who was going to get the money.
For example, if i tell you i'll give u a gift if u do this, and u listened and than i told u no i wont give you the gift. here i am lying directly to u, and indirectly towards God.
correct me if im wrong with anything i said- ( and sorry for not giving the complete information of what i knrew )
the way i know it is that the reason they died immediately is because they lied before the Holy Spirit- and i think its in the Bible- but it says that if you curse ( or somthin like that ) the Holy Spirit it is a great sin. and the aposltes were filled with the Holy Spirit
correct me if im wrong with anything i said- ( and sorry for not giving the complete information of what i knrew )
i don't think the Holy Spirit would be diffrent from God and the church in this case. becaseu if u would say that, many would die today becasue there are many living saints between us who are full of the Holy Spirit and letting Him work fully in them....as the apostles did. actually we're all full of the Spirit.
[center]
And how came he to baptize Simon also? Just as Christ
chose Judas. — And “beholding the signs” which he did, forasmuch as the
others did not receive the (power of working) signs he durst not ask for it.
— How was it then that they did not strike him dead, as they did Ananias
and Sapphira? Because even in the old times, he that gathered sticks (on
the sabbath-day) was put to death as a warning to others (Numbers 15:32)
and in no other instance did any suffer the same fate. So too on the present
occasion, “Peter said to him, Thy money perish, because thou hast
imagined that the gift of God is to be purchased with money.” — (v. 20.)[/center]
St Chrysostom didn't make a distinction with the sin.
Ananias and Saphira did, as Κηφaς reminds us, attempt to deceive God; they were given the chance to repent, they rejected it, and they died. There is in that a lesson for us all.
Simon Magus did, indeed, go on to be one of the earliest heretics, and to this day the Church in the west uses the word 'simony' to describe those who bought their bishoprics in the past; so his name lives in infamy.
God has given us the free will to choose what way we will follow in this life - and thus the next. What He offers we so often reject, and yet He keeps offering it to us.
Let us ponder what happened here.
The early Christians pooled their resources, with the wealthier ones giving generously to the poorer. It brought glory to God and respect for the church. Ananias and Saphira, however, were trying to gain respect and glory for themselves whilst trying to hold back on the sacrifice. In doing this they "trampled under foot the Son of God" and "insulted the Spirit of Grace" (Heb 10:29). So, it was not, in fact a little thing, a small lie that harmed no one.
In Acts 5:3 Peter’s asks Ananias, "Why has Satan filled your heart to lie...". So in striking him down, God strikes at Satan; the warning is there for us all. In Acts 5:9 Peter asks Saphira, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Lord to the test?" We are told specifically, in the words Our Lord used to Satan, that we should not put Our Lord God to the test; we see here why.
As 1 John 1:5 makes plain God is absolutely perfectly pure. He is light "and in him there is no darkness at all". The sin of Ananias and Saphira challenged the Light. They did not have to give land away - they chose to. They were trying to pretend to a generosity and honour without paying the price; they paid a heavier one.
I hope this helps.
In Christ,
John