[quote author=desertnurse link=topic=5483.msg73120#msg73120 date=1182574536] OK, I'm going to a Coptic service this Sunday or next. Any do's and don'ts?
the most important do is to actually pay attention to everything that goes on. mostly what the priest does, says, what deacons says, and people responses. because i know for a fact u will come back that sunday with tons of great question for us here to answer. ::) :D
I think he should only attend the Liturgy for the Catchemuns (that means up and until after the sermon proceeding the Gospel). I am not being just traditional, but it is too long for anyone not used to it. I mean 3 and a half hours...and half in a language that he doesn't know...
Doubting Thomas was actually referring to canon law which dictates that the unbaptised must leave the Liturgy before the the 'Liturgy of the Faithful.'
And it's a bad idea to go half way in any divine liturgy especially if you're new to it simply because you will have no understanding of it.
Divine Liturgy is more than just an educational service; it is participation in the Life of Christ; an expression of the unity between Him and His Body. Hence the canon law on the matter.
As to how strictly such canon law is upheld is a matter of what parish one attends. It is probably better therefore that the priest be notified before the visitation of a non-Orthodox, in order that that priest can set the conditions.
Iqbal is right, it would be an idea to contact the priest before you go. Some congregations do like catechumens and others to leave at the end of the Liturgy of the Catechumens; my own does not, so I was able to stay (at the back). This is purely for practical reasons. Our little Church is miles from anywhere, so if one leaves at the end of the Liturgy of the Catechumens there is no where to go but home, and one would miss out on the important socialising at the end.
Although she is writing about Eastern Orthodoxy, the following from Frederica Mathewes-Greene is helpful http://www.frederica.com/12-things/.
It is not a bad idea to stand in the body of the Church rather than towards the front, because you will need to take you cue from what others are doing; again, if you have let the priest know you are coming, get there before the start, and he can help; you'll probably find you are almost alone at the start - the Coptic fashion is for people to turn up for the Liturgy, which means that the Raising of Incense is often when people arrive; this can see strange to someone from a western culture where turning up 'on time' seems very important.
At the 'kiss of peace' it is a bad idea to do what you may have been used to doing in western Churches - giving Egyptian women a quick peck on the cheek is liable to test the Christian patience of their fathers, husbands and brothers; again, follow the pattern set by those around you.
If it is allowable, do stay to the end and socialise. The Copts are fabulously kind and welcoming - whenever I have gone to a Coptic Church I have been made so welcome, as have others.
Most of all, Taylor, let yourself be taken up by what is happening - which will mean you'll need to go a few times. Above all, don't get bogged down with the 'dos and don'ts'; the Copts will realise you don't know most of what is going on and will not judge - just help.
I hope and pray it will be a good experience for you; if you feel able, do let us know how it goes.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5483.msg73126#msg73126 date=1182586480] Although she is writing about Eastern Orthodoxy, the following from Frederica Mathewes-Greene is helpful http://www.frederica.com/12-things/.
this is just great. i read most of it and am surprised how she explains everything to.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5483.msg73142#msg73142 date=1182612717] Doesn't it show how much Orthodox Churches have in common - despite the split in 451 and everything that has happened since - makes you think really!
well yes i can see that. i don't think u'll see think much about that from the first visit. when you than start learning about the churchs u'll see the diffrence.
Doubting Thomas was actually referring to canon law which dictates that the unbaptised must leave the Liturgy before the the 'Liturgy of the Faithful.'
And it's a bad idea to go half way in any divine liturgy especially if you're new to it simply because you will have no understanding of it.
Divine Liturgy is more than just an educational service; it is participation in the Life of Christ; an expression of the unity between Him and His Body. Hence the canon law on the matter.
As to how strictly such canon law is upheld is a matter of what parish one attends. It is probably better therefore that the priest be notified before the visitation of a non-Orthodox, in order that that priest can set the conditions.
Oh, I see. I was not aware. In that case, very well then.
Dear all, I am just curious now to know how Taylor found his first visit to the Coptic Orthodox church, and when he arrived, and when he left. Would you like to tell us your experience Taylor please? It should be very interesting. God bless you and mention me in your prayers
Thank you so much for all of the info. I will be attending a Coptic service on July 8th, 2007. I look forward with much interest and excitement about the whole endeavor.
First-impressions generally vary a lot from person to person.
I know people who have gone into an Orthodox Church for the first time, and even though the whole thing was in a foreign language and they had no idea what was going on, they immediately felt at home.
But I also know others who have gone in for the first time, and although everything was said in English etc. they just felt out of place and it took several visits before they were comfortable with what was happening.
So DON'T make up your mind based on first impressions if it wasn't what you'd expected, but DO try to visit a few times (maybe even a few different parishes if possible) and allow yourself some time to get your head round everything first.
Dear all, Just thought of sharing this. The words of Orthodox11 just reminded me of something which I really am proud of my church for. There is a bishop in Egypt, called Bishop Raphael, and he is the bishop for the youth (I am sure most of you know him). He has a Muslim friend who studied Egyptology, and in his studies he became familiar with the Coptic language. So once that secular Muslim friend asked Bishop Raphael to attend midnight chants and as I remember part of Catechumen Mass of either Glorious feast of Nativity, or the Glorious feast of Resurrection. The story goes like this: Bshp Raphael used to attend that feast in the monastery and the secular Muslim friend of his asked fervently to go along with him, as he doesn't mind. Of course Bshp Raphael explained to him how he should behave in the church, and he asked him not to get offended that he would be asked to stand right at the entrance of the church, and no further. The secular Muslim agreed; being a respectable man, he just wanted to see how monks and Christians read and sing the Coptic language, to have a practical feel for what he was studying. By the way, the story was told by Bshp Raphael himself. Bshp Raphael gave a psalmody book in Coptic to his friend, and took excuse from him as he had to go up to the altar to pray. Bshp Raphael kept coming down to the bottom of the church every now and then to check on his friend after the service has already started. Guess what? Halfway through the midnight chants, Bshp Raphael noticed with the corner of his eyes that his friend put the psalmody book down, and was just staring at the altar and where the monks were praying. Then when Bshp Raphael went down to him, he asked him: "what happened? Did you get bored? Or just couldn't follow as we sing a bit too fast, being used to the chants": the secular Muslim friend replied saying "oh no, I have an overwhelming feeling inside that I am out of this world: I am fine this way, I don't need the book anymore; please give it to someone else who may need it, and I am ok". And now people without being sarcastic (in front of Taylor ;D) or diverting the course of this discussion, do the Coptic young still prefer to sing chants in Arabic or English, and not flick their fingers to start learning our own language which through blood and tears saints could manage to retain the services and the traditions for almost two centuries! How sad. God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Comments
OK, I'm going to a Coptic service this Sunday or next. Any do's and don'ts?
the most important do is to actually pay attention to everything that goes on. mostly what the priest does, says, what deacons says, and people responses. because i know for a fact u will come back that sunday with tons of great question for us here to answer. ::) :D
Doubting Thomas was actually referring to canon law which dictates that the unbaptised must leave the Liturgy before the the 'Liturgy of the Faithful.' Divine Liturgy is more than just an educational service; it is participation in the Life of Christ; an expression of the unity between Him and His Body. Hence the canon law on the matter.
As to how strictly such canon law is upheld is a matter of what parish one attends. It is probably better therefore that the priest be notified before the visitation of a non-Orthodox, in order that that priest can set the conditions.
Iqbal is right, it would be an idea to contact the priest before you go. Some congregations do like catechumens and others to leave at the end of the Liturgy of the Catechumens; my own does not, so I was able to stay (at the back). This is purely for practical reasons. Our little Church is miles from anywhere, so if one leaves at the end of the Liturgy of the Catechumens there is no where to go but home, and one would miss out on the important socialising at the end.
Although she is writing about Eastern Orthodoxy, the following from Frederica Mathewes-Greene is helpful http://www.frederica.com/12-things/.
It is not a bad idea to stand in the body of the Church rather than towards the front, because you will need to take you cue from what others are doing; again, if you have let the priest know you are coming, get there before the start, and he can help; you'll probably find you are almost alone at the start - the Coptic fashion is for people to turn up for the Liturgy, which means that the Raising of Incense is often when people arrive; this can see strange to someone from a western culture where turning up 'on time' seems very important.
At the 'kiss of peace' it is a bad idea to do what you may have been used to doing in western Churches - giving Egyptian women a quick peck on the cheek is liable to test the Christian patience of their fathers, husbands and brothers; again, follow the pattern set by those around you.
If it is allowable, do stay to the end and socialise. The Copts are fabulously kind and welcoming - whenever I have gone to a Coptic Church I have been made so welcome, as have others.
Most of all, Taylor, let yourself be taken up by what is happening - which will mean you'll need to go a few times. Above all, don't get bogged down with the 'dos and don'ts'; the Copts will realise you don't know most of what is going on and will not judge - just help.
I hope and pray it will be a good experience for you; if you feel able, do let us know how it goes.
In Christ,
John
I don't think anyone else mentioned - stand on the left ;)
well since this is Taylor, i've posted a picture of our church once and actually shown him where to stand. :D
Although she is writing about Eastern Orthodoxy, the following from Frederica Mathewes-Greene is helpful http://www.frederica.com/12-things/.
this is just great. i read most of it and am surprised how she explains everything to.
Glad you liked it, and I hope Taylor finds it helpful.
Doesn't it show how much Orthodox Churches have in common - despite the split in 451 and everything that has happened since - makes you think really!
In Christ,
Anglian
Doesn't it show how much Orthodox Churches have in common - despite the split in 451 and everything that has happened since - makes you think really!
well yes i can see that. i don't think u'll see think much about that from the first visit. when you than start learning about the churchs u'll see the diffrence.
Dear ServantofJesus,
Doubting Thomas was actually referring to canon law which dictates that the unbaptised must leave the Liturgy before the the 'Liturgy of the Faithful.' Divine Liturgy is more than just an educational service; it is participation in the Life of Christ; an expression of the unity between Him and His Body. Hence the canon law on the matter.
As to how strictly such canon law is upheld is a matter of what parish one attends. It is probably better therefore that the priest be notified before the visitation of a non-Orthodox, in order that that priest can set the conditions.
Oh, I see. I was not aware. In that case, very well then.
I am just curious now to know how Taylor found his first visit to the Coptic Orthodox church, and when he arrived, and when he left. Would you like to tell us your experience Taylor please? It should be very interesting.
God bless you and mention me in your prayers
Taylor
Well, on 8 July you will 'do' the first important 'do' - and my prayers, and I am sure the prayers of others here are with you. :)
In Christ,
John
I'm totally excited but very nervous also. Even through my research, I have no idea what I'm getting myself into! I'm so excited!!!
Like my Auntie says: Leap! The net will be there!
Taylor
I know people who have gone into an Orthodox Church for the first time, and even though the whole thing was in a foreign language and they had no idea what was going on, they immediately felt at home.
But I also know others who have gone in for the first time, and although everything was said in English etc. they just felt out of place and it took several visits before they were comfortable with what was happening.
So DON'T make up your mind based on first impressions if it wasn't what you'd expected, but DO try to visit a few times (maybe even a few different parishes if possible) and allow yourself some time to get your head round everything first.
Just thought of sharing this. The words of Orthodox11 just reminded me of something which I really am proud of my church for. There is a bishop in Egypt, called Bishop Raphael, and he is the bishop for the youth (I am sure most of you know him). He has a Muslim friend who studied Egyptology, and in his studies he became familiar with the Coptic language. So once that secular Muslim friend asked Bishop Raphael to attend midnight chants and as I remember part of Catechumen Mass of either Glorious feast of Nativity, or the Glorious feast of Resurrection. The story goes like this:
Bshp Raphael used to attend that feast in the monastery and the secular Muslim friend of his asked fervently to go along with him, as he doesn't mind. Of course Bshp Raphael explained to him how he should behave in the church, and he asked him not to get offended that he would be asked to stand right at the entrance of the church, and no further. The secular Muslim agreed; being a respectable man, he just wanted to see how monks and Christians read and sing the Coptic language, to have a practical feel for what he was studying. By the way, the story was told by Bshp Raphael himself. Bshp Raphael gave a psalmody book in Coptic to his friend, and took excuse from him as he had to go up to the altar to pray. Bshp Raphael kept coming down to the bottom of the church every now and then to check on his friend after the service has already started. Guess what? Halfway through the midnight chants, Bshp Raphael noticed with the corner of his eyes that his friend put the psalmody book down, and was just staring at the altar and where the monks were praying. Then when Bshp Raphael went down to him, he asked him: "what happened? Did you get bored? Or just couldn't follow as we sing a bit too fast, being used to the chants": the secular Muslim friend replied saying "oh no, I have an overwhelming feeling inside that I am out of this world: I am fine this way, I don't need the book anymore; please give it to someone else who may need it, and I am ok".
And now people without being sarcastic (in front of Taylor ;D) or diverting the course of this discussion, do the Coptic young still prefer to sing chants in Arabic or English, and not flick their fingers to start learning our own language which through blood and tears saints could manage to retain the services and the traditions for almost two centuries! How sad.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers