Hello,
Can someone help answer these.
God created Adam and Eve. Their offspring "married" one another. Brother marrying sister etc... and having kids.
Why then did God make it a sin to marry your siblings afterwards??? It means God's opinion has changed??
Secondly, there were symbols of baptism in the Bible that the Israelites went through (eg. circumcision, crossing the red sea etc) -but what good are symbols?? What was the point in having "symbolic" sacrements??? What good is that? Its not the real deal!?? Is it?
The book of Leviticus (and similiar books) are all "do's and don'ts" ) - these books basically form the core of the Jewish TORA. Their contents shows a discontinuity in God's opinion:
For example, someone who sins a certain sin should be put to death. This is now against His will. We are called NOT to judge anyone. Yet, it was His commandment that we do judge before, and even execute/put to death murderers, idolaterers and adulterers??
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because He couldnt bear their sins (they were into homosexuality etc...). Why then does He leave us in our current state where Homosexuals can not only be married, but even ordained as Bishops in some CHurches??? Why Change so ??? Surely, it would be fair to treat everyone equally??!
If the answer is because His Mercy endures forever, then why did it not endure for the Sodomites?? If they failed to repent, and He destroyed them for this reason, then OK. But not only have we become nations of adulterers, and idol worshippers, we've legalised it. Everything that appears to be Sacred and Holy to the Lord; the exact opposite is now legalised and encouraged: Polygamy, homosexuality, fornication, etc.
Can someone here enlighten me?
THanks,
Comments
No. It's impossible, since for change to happen, time must occur. God is timeless(Gen 21:33, 1 Kin. 8:27, Is 57::15, gen 1:1, John 1:1, Hab 3:6 builds the case). I refer to my discussion in the 'Endurance' thread. However, we have a clear verse that says this in Numbers (23:19).
Secondly, to the rest that shows change in God's dealings with us, or the laws, I argue that is divorced from the essence and views of God Himself.
For instance, let's say you have a brother that is just like you when you were younger. If he does the same bad thing as you do today, do you expect that your parents would treat you both the same.
Now regarding to the "no judging rule". The command was not to not judge, but not to be a hypocrites- that by our words/judgments we are condemned.
Why does God not react like He did before to the same sin- well for starters the faithful have already learned the severity of these sins by the Church's retelling of these historic events. There are many reasons perhaps. One is that any city has many more than 10 righteous people! and thus if He did destroy the city, He would be reacting much more harshly than before!
With the marriage, God's opinion doesn't change (God doesn't have opinions; He just is) but its permissibility did. I go back to my little analogy before: don't you expect the rules for your brother and yourself be different- despite doing the same thing?
It was necessary for marriage between siblings to allow for the growth of the human race.
Hello,
Can someone help answer these.
God created Adam and Eve. Their offspring "married" one another. Brother marrying sister etc... and having kids.
Why then did God make it a sin to marry your siblings afterwards??? It means God's opinion has changed??
Because during adam and eve there were no other way to get offsprings other than sisters and brothers sleeping with each others, now you can go all around the world to find that special someone....!!!!
God's opinion doesn't change........
Back in the 13th-16th century.... THe catholic church believed that the earth was in the middle of the universe.... and that was proved wrong by many scientists and the church refused to listen, so they punished the scientists.... The chuch says it is in the Holy book that the earth is in the middle of the universe and people believed them because they were ignorant, they couldn't read!
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5490.msg73234#msg73234 date=1182767647]
Secondly, there were symbols of baptism in the Bible that the Israelites went through (eg. circumcision, crossing the red sea etc) -but what good are symbols?? What was the point in having "symbolic" sacrements??? What good is that? Its not the real deal!?? Is it?
How can't it be the real deal?????
If we are not baptisied... we won't go to heaven! Once we are baptisied... we recieve the holy spirit.. and we become christians.... Our Lord Jesus Christ was baptised by John the Baptist!
Circumcision if you read in the old testement... it would explain alot!
The reason in having Symbolic sacrements is if you would notice through out the bible... GOd has been telling Moses/Arron/Samuel/David/etc.... about giviing scarficies.... on an alter... That represent the sacrifice that God is going to make when he gave his only begotten son for the sake of the human kind!
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5490.msg73234#msg73234 date=1182767647]
The book of Leviticus (and similiar books) are all "do's and don'ts" ) - these books basically form the core of the Jewish TORA. Their contents shows a discontinuity in God's opinion:
For example, someone who sins a certain sin should be put to death. This is now against His will. We are called NOT to judge anyone. Yet, it was His commandment that we do judge before, and even execute/put to death murderers, idolaterers and adulterers??
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because He couldnt bear their sins (they were into homosexuality etc...). Why then does He leave us in our current state where Homosexuals can not only be married, but even ordained as Bishops in some CHurches??? Why Change so ??? Surely, it would be fair to treat everyone equally??!
I don't believe that any orthodox believes/books come from the JEWISH TORA!!
We are not Jews.... Jews can believe in what they want to believe in!
If you refrence to what you are saying, Please do site them! So i can be englighted as well!!
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5490.msg73234#msg73234 date=1182767647]
even ordained as Bishops in some CHurches???
In order for somebody to be bishop he needs to be single!!!! THe highest rank for somebody to get in a church (atleast coptic orthodox church) if they were married... is a KOMOS! beyound that they have to be single!
IF we all started to question God's Wisdom using our human minds WE WILL NEVER GOING TO FIND AN ANSWER!!!!! God's Wisdome goes beyound any human imagination!!!! Even if you spent all of your life trying to figure out how we started at the begening by being dust.... YOU WILL NEVER GOING TO FIND AN ANSWER!! that is why the best thing scients said is "we come from monkies" "we come from bacteria that is combined together" etc....
pray for me,
bentBABAyasooa`
One of your most challenging sets of questions. I shall do my best to answer them as far as is possible, but two things to start with:
- God does not change - our understanding of what He tells us may;
- the law of Moses was the first part of God's plan to help mankind recover from the effects of our own disobedience; but a new understanding came with the Incarnation and the Resurrection. Our Lord came not to abolish the Law but to fulfil it; that sometimes meant a new understanding - an understanding of the real purpose of the Law, not just its letter. For example, look at what Our Lord did with the woman taken in adultery. The Law prescribed she should be stoned to death. Our Lord did not say that she should not be, just that those without sin should cast the first stone - and when no one cast it, He told her to sin no more.
That is the best example of what I mean. Jesus Christ brings us the full understanding of what God intends. So, with homosexuality, He does not tell us it is OK, but He does tell us that we should love the sinner even if we have to hate the sin. How easy it is to be a Pharisee - and how much He tells us not to be one. The moment we think we are holier than anyone else, that is the moment we have fallen away from Him into the sin of pride.
In the beginning who else was there to marry? But as society developed God told us that this was not the way to go about reproducing the species. God reveals things to us gradually through the Law of Moses; then, in the full revelation of the Incarnate Word, He reveals the fulness of the Law.
No where in the Bible does it say that the earth is in the middle of the universe; that was human misunderstanding.
The symbolic sacraments were what was appropriate for us before the sacraments brought by Christ; there is, in short, a progressive revelation in the Scriptures; but how slow we still are to understand! This is part of the answer to what you write here: One of the constant themes of the Scriptures is our disobedience and willfulness; we have always thought we knew best, even though the evidence that we do not is so great. However, He has never abandoned us. First he sent the Mosaic Law, then His Son and the New Covenant; and mankind crucified the only-begotten Son of God. We do it every day symbolically. And yet He still calls us to Him.
I hope that helps.
In Christ,
Anglian
Why then did God make it a sin to marry your siblings afterwards???
I read (but not from an orthodox site) and had the same thought that it was okay then because it was not harmful for the children to be born as it might of been at the time of moses or some time before.. but this does not seem to be complete because isn't it wrong in itself to have sex with a opposite sex sibling? maybe not since sex in itself is not wrong right? but it still seems to be wrong maybe.. anyway I think God intends for us to marry someone other than our sister or brother since He wants us to learn to love perfectly others who are not part of our natural family and this might help us to love other different people and help us to attain salvation. I still do not think my answer is complete. The bible also says it is wrong because you are uncovering their nakedness or shame or something.. (correct me if the bible does not say so) ...maybe since a sister should trust her brother and a brother should trust his sister.. there were all sorts of pervesions at the time of moses but not as bad as in the earlier days maybe.. if something bad happens it might ruin the relationship to your brother and sister forever (though we should forgive but that doesn't eliminate the sin) whom you had a relationship with since being small children (and if you have never met your brother or sister still there is a unique bond between siblings from genetics maybe) then the question might be asked.. shouldn't your wife to be who is not your sister also need your trust.. yes she does.. so you should not do anything sexually that decreases her trust either.. but in that case maybe the sin is less since God knows you did not know her for as long and that the two of you are not linked genetically.. it is good that the two are different since they can develop the virtue of patience and love other people.. but still that might not mean it is a sin to have sex with your sister if it is 100% pure (unless sex is itself sinful right?)...but still it would be a sin I think since God said not to and you should not trust that you are that holy.. and it might still be wrong for a reason I do not know..
Pope Shenouda I think gave reasons why cousin marriage is okay.. I forget what were the reasons.. were Jacob and Rachel cousins and was Sarah half sister to Abraham? but they were before Moses but still in Gods laws from Moses He never forbid it I think.. I really want someone to answer this..
So I hope I and you are convinced that there are reasons if we don't know it God knows it and sometimes His wisdom might not be found out in this lifetime if it is even possible.. and for some things I think they can not be found out in this lifetime but I think they are non essential things..
but this might be a good example that God may seem to change even in the old testament not just from the old testament to the new testament though He does not..
Do you think my thinking too much is dangerous? pope shenouda said thinking alot can make you solve problems (he might of said faith problems) and can also cause you to fall into heresy.. I am a very curious peron..
Do you think I should have left my thinking to myself? Pray that I become less curious and trust if it is God's will all the days of my life..
Vassilios did you not want a long answer like this? you might of got tired reading..
You said
"For example, someone who sins a certain sin should be put to death. This is now against His will. We are called NOT to judge anyone. Yet, it was His commandment that we do judge before, and even execute/put to death murderers, idolaterers and adulterers??"
this is a question that has been on my mind and tormenting me
When the Pharisees tried to find an error in Christ regarding divorce Jesus did not say it is not for you to know the wisdom of God but He gave them an answer.. and did not make them have to deal with that but He wanted to give them no excuse not to believe and no excuse not to repent.. and not make God seem like He can't answer their questions.. He Himself said gave them miracles to make them believe even though He would prefer they believe without the miracles.. I know it is not for us to be able to answer everyones questions but God should still answer our individual questions (somehow maybe from the guardian angel or the Holy Spirit or through different people.. not every person has to know the answer to everyones questions)
About your question
First I want to say that this question seems to be a problem for the Jews also (not that I know any jews that would admit this is question is a problem but they should have a problem with this question it seems).. why did God spare David when He commited adultery and other sinners but let others be stoned to death? And did not God spare the Ninevites and would have spared sodom if the people in it repented? Didn't God say I do not desire the death of the sinner but that he may turn and live in the old testament?
I might have a complete answer to this question later.. I think I had some important thoughts about it.. pray for me and if anyone else has the answer tell us..
No, I don't think it is wrong to think; indeed not to would be to behave like the steward who buried his master's money in the ground and never used it for anything. But thinking needs to be informed by the teachings of the Church, which is why it is good for us to read Orthodox books and pamphlets; then our thinking is informed by the teachings of the traditions of two thousand years. We may be pygmies, but we stand on the shoulders of giants!
God does not change, but we cannot know Him in His essence; He is by definition unknowable by His creation. We can know what He has chosen to reveal through the prophets, the scriptures and His Son. So, our knowledge of Him changes, as does our understanding; but to know the whole of His purpose is not His will; we believe and trust in Him - and we do so on the basis of an imperfect understanding; yet one that is more than sufficient for our needs. What Christ tells us, what the New Testament tells us, what the Fathers tell us, and what the Church teaches us, all these give us the guidance we need.
Under the Mosaic dispensation mankind had one understanding of the Law; if it had been a perfect understanding and man had listened and obeyed there would have been no need for the Incarnation; yet mankind did not understand aright. So he came into the world that we should have Life - and Life abundant. He came to guide us to the light.
So, we do not need to worry about seeming inconsistencies between the Mosaic understanding of the Law and the Church's understanding; that latter is what we should follow; we now see more clearly. God has not changed - our understanding has developed. That is what you would expect with the Holy Spirit operating in the world through the Church and through Christians. It is a sin to have sexual relations outside of marriage; you cannot marry your sister; the Church teaches that incest is sinful; that ought to be more than enough of an answer for all of us?
God chose not to slay David for adultery - but when you see what happened to him, you can hardly say he was not punished for his sins; he suffered very severely for what he did wrong - and he repented and begged the Lord to forgive him. He is, in this, one of us and an example to us all. We too sin, we too suffer and cause those we love to suffer; but God is merciful and loving, and if we repent and follow Christ, we too can gain forgiveness.
I hope this helps a little.
In Christ,
Anglian
Let's answer ONE question at a time:
God created Adam and Eve - Correct?
Their offspring married on another. Brother marrying sister.
So God allowed siblings to marry.
How then can He say afterwards that it is wrong for a brother to marry a sister, when He allowed that from the very beginning?
I am not sure I am right .. if I am not may God make everyone not believe it
Why then did God make it a sin to marry your siblings afterwards???
I read (but not from an orthodox site) and had the same thought that it was okay then because it was not harmful for the children to be born as it might of been at the time of moses or some time before.. but this does not seem to be complete because isn't it wrong in itself to have sex with a opposite sex sibling? maybe not since sex in itself is not wrong right? but it still seems to be wrong maybe.. anyway I think God intends for us to marry someone other than our sister or brother since He wants us to learn to love perfectly others who are not part of our natural family and this might help us to love other different people and help us to attain salvation. I still do not think my answer is complete. The bible also says it is wrong because you are uncovering their nakedness or shame or something.. (correct me if the bible does not say so) ...maybe since a sister should trust her brother and a brother should trust his sister.. there were all sorts of pervesions at the time of moses but not as bad as in the earlier days maybe.. if something bad happens it might ruin the relationship to your brother and sister forever (though we should forgive but that doesn't eliminate the sin) whom you had a relationship with since being small children (and if you have never met your brother or sister still there is a unique bond between siblings from genetics maybe) then the question might be asked.. shouldn't your wife to be who is not your sister also need your trust.. yes she does.. so you should not do anything sexually that decreases her trust either.. but in that case maybe the sin is less since God knows you did not know her for as long and that the two of you are not linked genetically.. it is good that the two are different since they can develop the virtue of patience and love other people.. but still that might not mean it is a sin to have sex with your sister if it is 100% pure (unless sex is itself sinful right?)...but still it would be a sin I think since God said not to and you should not trust that you are that holy.. and it might still be wrong for a reason I do not know..
Sorry.
Why is it God made it so Adam and Eve's kids reproduce from one another, but then forbade siblings of other generations from marrying??
THis needs to be answered. In 2 lines.
If Adam and Eve's children were the only people in the world, who else were they going to reproduce with? Exceptional circumstance require unique solutions.
In Christ,
Anglian
Dear QT,
If Adam and Eve's children were the only people in the world, who else were they going to reproduce with? Exceptional circumstance require unique solutions.
In Christ,
Anglian
OK, but then why is it a sin now to marry your sibling?
God allowed it before. WHy make it a sin afterwards!??
Why did he command the Israelites to kill certain tribes when there was a commandment to NOT kill?
Why did He command that adultary be punished by death, and then go and forgive the adulteress?? He set up laws, and then changed them?
Can anyone here explain that?
Here is an analogy, you have an apple that has a small rotten section on it. Now, because the apple only has a small part that is rotten, we can still eat it and discard the portion that is rotten. However, if the apple is left alone, the rot begins to spread more and more until it entirely consumes the apple, and we can no longer eat it. Such is the case with humanity. Sin has so engulfed humanity that it has corrupted our nature down to the genetic level.
Context is vital. The commandment is not 'Thou shalt not kill' but rather 'Thou shalt not commit murder'. There is a huge difference as one can be killed by inanimate objects (i.e. by a car) whereas murder implies intent, and thus is something only humans can do to each other. As such, there is no 'change' going on here. Now, the Israelites did kill and annihilate certain peoples in the OT. Why? Because at that time of war and violence it was either destroy or be destroyed. One thing to realize is that the Israelites were not always the aggressors. They had many enemies (the peoples God often told them to destroy) and thus had to defend themselves to survive. These peoples were also very much aggressors and were extremely violent and corrupt individuals. God had chosen the Hebrews to bring to fruition His plan for the salvation of all mankind. If they were annihilated, that would present a problem. Thus, they had to defend themselves. Granted, there were times when God allowed them to be overcome by their enemies to chastise them and teach them. So, please do not think it is as black and white as 'God said don't kill, but then He turns around and tells the Israelites to kill'. Perhaps you need to re-read the story of the adulteress and Christ. At no point does Christ say that she should not be stoned. Look at what He says, 'He among you is without sin, let him cast the first stone'. So, had there been anyone sinless, then by all means, they could have stoned the woman. But there, as the bard tells us, lies the rub. Who is without sin? Thus, who are we to condemn a person to death seeing we ourselves are condemned to death because of our sins. 'For the wage of sin is death'. Now, the only person who could have justly stoned the adulteress to death was Christ Himself, and yet look at the love and compassion He has. He graciously forgives her, but tells her at the same time to 'sin no more'. So again, God does not change His laws. However, He is the only one who can fully live by them and apply them, not us. He has taken the laws to a higher, spiritual level, because now we live in an age of Grace, and He holds us to a higher standard.
I am grateful to you for underlining the main points.
As far as the general discussion goes, we have surely established that it is our understanding of what He wants that changes, not God; and that the new covenant is what enables our understanding to increase.
So, yes, in the Old Testament the Jews were allowed to kill their enemies, but the time for that has passed, and we are told to love them; why? The short answer is that we now understand God more clearly. Christ could not have been clearer on this.
On the business of sleeping with one's sister, again the arguments seem clear enough.
Whenever there is a seeming contradiction in the scripture, you can bet that it is our understanding that is defective.
In Christ,
Anglian
but about Stoning.. when the Israelites u'sed to stone in the old testament do you think those people who stoned were really sinless?
I have to say this for I know this topic might be brought up again.. if not by anyone .. then by me..
I can post my answer later which I stopped thinking about so I think it could be somehwhat wrong but getting to it
and to Vassilios its okay if you did not understand my answer about the siblings
It seems pretty clear that those who did cast stones (for example those who stoned St. Stephen) were not without sin - so the point Our Lord was making is that such people were hypocrites. Yet again we see how well Our Lord knows us poor humans; how often are we tempted to criticise others for the same weaknesses we know we have?
As humans we get things wrong all the time; if we follow His ways and His commandments we get fewer things wrong and live a better life for our spiritual growth.
In Christ,
Anglian
were they sinless?
Thanks for the answer.
Im being a bit of a devil's advocate here, but i still don't understand. If God allowed brother and sister to marry at first, why go to the extent of telling us this is a sin afterwards? Why then didn't He create Adam and Eve, and Steve and Barbara. That way, the kids of both could have married. And that's not really marrying cousins ?
Anyway, God commanded that Adulters be stoned to death. Yes? In the OT?
So, was it right then for them to be stoned in the OT?
Also, who did God expect to stone anyone committing adultary? Was it the priest?
Thanks
In as far as those who did the stoning in the OT were obeying their conception of the Law they were not sinning. But it seems pretty clear from what Our Lord said concerning the woman taken in adultery that their understanding had been inadequate; they had, as so often, understood the letter rather than the spirit of the law.
It really goes back to something we have discussed earlier - namely our limited ability to understand what it is God wants. This is why we have Our Mother the Church to help us. Those Protestants who try to live place too heavy a burden on themselves. We need the help of the living tradition out of which the Scriptures came if we are to understand them aright.
Read apart from that Tradition we do, indeed, fall into the pit of pride where we think we may have the right answer - or, worse, of thinking that there is a contradiction we only we have spotted and which means everything is somehow wrong because of it. Let us read the Scriptures in the tradition of the Church and seek our answers there - where two thousand years of wisdom resides.
In Christ,
Anglian
Dear QT, Dear Mike,
In as far as those who did the stoning in the OT were obeying their conception of the Law they were not sinning. But it seems pretty clear from what Our Lord said concerning the woman taken in adultery that their understanding had been inadequate; they had, as so often, understood the letter rather than the spirit of the law.
It really goes back to something we have discussed earlier - namely our limited ability to understand what it is God wants. This is why we have Our Mother the Church to help us. Those Protestants who try to live place too heavy a burden on themselves. We need the help of the living tradition out of which the Scriptures came if we are to understand them aright.
Read apart from that Tradition we do, indeed, fall into the pit of pride where we think we may have the right answer - or, worse, of thinking that there is a contradiction we only we have spotted and which means everything is somehow wrong because of it. Let us read the Scriptures in the tradition of the Church and seek our answers there - where two thousand years of wisdom resides.
In Christ,
Anglian
My understanding was that Christ didnt condemn this woman, because although she deserved to die, He is dying instead of her.
But i was reading the OT, and it clearly states that adulteres ought to be stoned to death.
What way , what spirit did Christ want us to interpret this??
Man is inherently sinful and thus, has never been sinless. Thus, those that stoned in the OT were sinners just as we are today. As John pointed out though, they were following the Law since the time of the OT was the Age of the Law. We presently live in the Age of Grace. Does that somehow mean we can discard the Law? Of course not. Christ Himself said, 'I have not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill'. Thus, by following Christ we follow the Law. Christ is the fulfillment of the Law because no man has ever been able to successfully abide by it except one Man: the Man Jesus Christ. So in Him, we are able to abide by the Law. Paul has stated that if one were to stumble in only one part of the Law, that person is guilty of the entire Law. Thus, man has never been able to fully abide and uphold the Law set out by God. The Law of God can be thought of to apply at certain levels: the basest level is the literal interpretation of the Law (i.e. the letter of the Law); the highest level is the spiritual interpretation of the Law (i.e. the Spirit of the Law). In its infancy, mankind was only able to abide by the letter of the Law, but as mankind grew up and matured, God saw fit to teach man not to follow the letter but the Spirit of the Law, because 'the letter kills but the Spirit gives life'.
Here is an analogy: we are all familiar with the different 'levels' in mathematics. There is basic arithmetic, algebra and calculus. In kindergarten we were taught basic arithmetic, that is, how to add and subtract. Later on in elementary school we are taught multiplication and division. But that is not where mathematics ends. As we grow older, we are able to understand the deeper concepts behind mathematics and are thus finally able to learn calculus. It does not make sense to teach a kindergartener calculus because their minds can not comprehend it. It is the same with mankind and God. His Laws never change, just as mathematics never changes. However, our understanding of these Laws improves as we grow older, just as our understanding of mathematics does.