A close protestant friend told me that maybe the Catholics, or the Orthodox, or the Anglicans might be worshiping God in Truth, but not in Spirit. It seemed that he even suggested that worshiping in Spirit is all that is needed, and he keeps on saying "i think it is only important that you have a personal relationship with Christ".
He made the argument that as God is infinite, so is Truth, so it is impossible that we could comprehend the truth.
How would you approach this?
Comments
and the coptic church believes it is directly from St Mark and has not changed at all and that it is the true church of God..
A personal relationship with Christ is founded upon the foundation of Truth; if is not, then it cannot be said to be an authentic relationship with Christ.
Ofcourse God's Truth is beyond all comprehension; the transcendence of God is a fundamental Orthodox doctrine. Nevertheless, out of His Love, God reveals to His Church as much Truth as necessary for the salvation of the world. The Church does not claim to know God's Truth perfectly or exhaustibly, but rather she knows it in a dependable manner in the measure that God graciously reveals it to us.
It is worth spending time reading Iqbal's wise post carefully, for it really does answer your friend's question.
No one denies that at the heart of the Faith is a personal relationship with the Risen Lord - but how do you know your relationship is with Him, and how can you be sure that you are not simply mistaking your own wishes for His? Have you ever noticed how often, in the modern world, Christians wish to make the Church more like the world, 'more relevant'? But the call of the Church is to transform the world, not to be like it.
The Bible came out of the world and worship of the early Church, and to read it aright we need the guidance of that tradition; to think we can read it by our own lights is to be prideful - and to suffer the consequences.
Where do we truly encounter the Risen Lord? At the Eucharistic feast. If you believe (as some do) that the bread and the wine are merely symbols and memorials, you do not take the reality of the body and blood to part of yourself, and you cannot be transformed by them.
It is a modern heresy (based on a much older one) that Jesus is just a really good guy who loves us and that if we love Him everything will be fine. Jesus Christ is the only-begotten Son of God. How do we understand that? In understanding the Incarnation, we gain an understanding of how to be saved. These doctrinal matters are very important, and the Church has two thousand years of accumulated wisdom on these matters.
The better we know Him with whom we have the personal relationship, the more real, profound and meaningful that relationship will be. Too often, in some circles, the relationship with the Risen Lord resembles a whirlwind holiday romance; "I got to know this really cool guy and he blows my mind!" - that sort of thing. Well, you can start there, but if you want to know who this person is with whom you are to have an eternal relationship, you'd better spend time finding out about Him - and where better to start than with all His relatives in the Church?
In Christ,
Anglian
I guess I feel though that I am serving the House rather than the Lord of the House- if you know what I mean, that I was a bit vulnerable to that line of attack. And that sometimes makes me feel that perhaps the lack of protestant identifying with a Church, sometimes make them serve the Lord rather than the House.
An interesting line of thought - but the House exists to worship the Lord, and in serving it you should be serving Him whose House it is.
In practice, Protestants do tend to be very attached to whichever Church they are part of; it is a natural part of being human.
We would argue that the difference is that we are in the House founded by the Lord.
In Christ,
Anglian
This is a proclamation of the Holy Trinity.
We worship the Father in Spirit (Holy Spirit) and Truth (Christ said "I am the Truth").
Thus Christ was speaking of the time that would come when true believers (i.e. Orthodox Christians) would worship God not as a monad like the Jews did, but in Trinity. The Church is not a house, it is the Body of Christ. As the Fathers tell us, "you cannot have God as your Father if you do not have the Church as your mother."
Thank you - what a very good way of explaining it.
In Christ,
Anglian
Personal relationship with Christ????? What about God and the Holy Spirit? Are we just worshiping only one part of the Holy Trinity? Is it just all about Jesus? Much of America has gone far, way too far from the path of the Holy Trinity! There is ONE God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Its not just about Jesus! He is God incarnate and the salvation of our soul, but such could never come or be realized without God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I believe that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is THE most important doctrine of all of Christianity. It is one of the Divine Mysteries in my mind, and as such, is the Declaration to the rest of the world just what we as Christians believe.
taylor
A personal relationship with Christ will in no way detract from worshipping the other two hypostases of the Holy Trinity. One reason a person may focus on Christ is the fact that Christ is the one who took flesh and became one of us. He is knowable, and we can relate directly to Him because He became us. Let us look back to what St. John tells us: 'And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.' (John 1:16,18). God the Father is unknowable except through the Son. A relationship with the Father can only be done through the Son. Christ tells us, 'If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also' (John 8:19) and 'I and My Father are one.' (John 10:30) and again, 'I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.' (John 14:6).
When Philip asked Christ to show them (the Apostles) the Father, Christ responded, 'Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known me Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father' (John 14:9). When we worship one, we worship all, because the Three are One. So you cannot really make the distinction.
Taylor,
Κηφᾶς's post was dead on. Christ himself said that no one may come to the Father except through him. And God the Father, during the baptism of Christ, said this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased, hear him. In the transfiguration, he appeared and said the same thing. Their relationship is what it is because of the Holy Spirit. A personal relationship with the Son allows us, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to approach the Father. This is why Christ affirms that only the sins against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven men, for it is through the power of the Holy Spirit that we are saved.