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mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Now I know the Holy Spirit was not given until Christ gave it after His death (and maybe after some time.. wasn't it at pentecost?).. but why then did Jesus say receive the Holy Spirit (before He died I think).. those sins you forgive are forgiven ? was it then possible for people living when Christ was alive to live by His commandments .. such as do not even have lustful thoughts? I think before Christ died people were able to live very much righteously such as righteous people in the Old Testament.. Enoch, Elijah and such as St John the Baptist and Sinless Saint Mary.. what then was the benefit of the Holy Spirit.. the Comforter.. Did they really have no comfort before? was the benefit just speaking in tongues? actually the Holy Spirit was the helper .. it made the disciples bold and not afraid to face death.. but how come some prophets were not afraid to face death.. didn't they also have the helper the Holy Spirit.. did the prophets not feel pain at all?

and why did Christ say casting out demons can come out by nothing but fasting and praying yet He gave the twelve disciples authority to cast out demons and heal all kinds of sickness and diseases even while He was alive.. but He said can the friends fast while the bridegroom is with them? they will fast when the bridegroom is taken away from them (when He dies).. did He mean only that they will not fast alot like the disciples of John and the Pharisees but not that they will not fast at all and maybe alot but not as much as the disciples of John and the Pharisees?

Comments

  • Anglican
    Dear Mike,

    Let me try to help, although I would appreciate the help of others much more knowledgeable.


    His Holiness, Pope Shenouda III has written on this:

    But when the Lord breathed on them it was to give them
    the sacrament of the Holy Orders (Priesthood).
    It is stated, "He breathed on them and said to them 'Receive the
    Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven
    them, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained'" (John
    20:22, 23).
    It means that He gave them, by the Holy Spirit, the authority to
    forgive sins, or rather He gave them the Spirit by whom they
    can forgive sins, thus forgiveness comes from God.

    There are cases in the Old Testament in which the Spirit is at work, and of course it was perfectly possible for men and women to live righteous lives before the descent of the Holy Spirit onto the Apostles. Its benefit for us is that it sanctifies our nature. We should not read this as meaning that we become the equal of Christ, for that would be a heresy. St. Cyril explains it thus:

    When the Word of God became man, He received the Spirit
    from the Father as one of us,( not receiving aught for
    Himself individually, for He was the Giver of the Spirit);
    but that He Who knew no sin, might, by receiving the Spirit
    as man, preserve Him to our nature, and might again restore
    in us the grace which has left us.

    On the question of fasting, you will note that the Church prescribes long periods of fasting, and we know this dates from the early Church; the Apostles certainly fasted - and prayed. What He was saying earlier was advice to them to make the most of Him in the Incarnation whilst he was among them.

    I hope this helps a little.

    In Christ,

    Anglian

  • mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
    Thankyou for your reply

    but what do you mean by it sanctifies our nature?  was the nature of the prophets not sanctified?


  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=5524.msg73849#msg73849 date=1183685755]
    but what do you mean by it sanctifies our nature?  was the nature of the prophets not sanctified?

    if am not mistaken...they still had the incorruptable nature where they still went to hades after death.
  • Anglican
    Dear Mike,

    Minagir is correct.

    As St. Cyril wrote, the Holy Spirit helps to restore us to the image of God in which we were created originally, but which has been marred by the effects of sin.

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
    Thanks

    "and why did Christ say casting out demons can come out by nothing but fasting and praying yet He gave the twelve disciples authority to cast out demons and heal all kinds of sickness and diseases even while He was alive."

    I think I know the answer to that now from reading something... though this q was not asked directly.. 

    The answer is: only some demons like the demon that the disciples could not cast out can only come out by fasting and prayer... others they had the authority




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