You know the story of the saint that plucked his eye out because it caused him to sin (according to what Jesus said) - was this right?
If it was right, why doesnt abouna suggest this for everyone ?? WHy doesnt the Coptic Church, that tells us "prevention is better than cure" make us blind during our baptism and that way, we are SURE to never see anything evil again??
Why not??
If the answer is that :"We have a reward in struggling, and fighting against temptation", then the saint that plucked his eye out (sama3an il kharrass) - He didnt really ahve to do it!?? Did he??
Comments
I am not sure how factual this is, but I was told that Origen, who was excommunicated from our church, was condemned for doing likewise with another body part. Because he was a priest and a learned bible scholar, the punishment was severe, I suppose.
P.S. Sam3an il Kharaz's Monastery is S T U N N I N G.
So the monk takes it literally and starts to just sit and pray without eating. When he was about to die, an angel comes and tells him and explains to him how it was wrong. And I think he listened to the angel.... I hope. :D :D
Technically it was not right, but it was done out of good intentions and Sam3an il Kharaz, as you know, was a simple and unlearned man. God judges you based on your knowledge and intentions. It's like when a little kid says a curse word; you teach him never to say that and perhaps yell at him the first time, but you don't slap him from the first time. Aye?
I am not sure how factual this is, but I was told that Origen, who was excommunicated from our church, was condemned for doing likewise with another body part. Because he was a priest and a learned bible scholar, the punishment was severe, I suppose.
P.S. Sam3an il Kharaz's Monastery is S T U N N I N G.
Can we call it a monastery? I admit, it is stunning - sure... it smells really bad - sure!! (and we all know why that is!)
But, its not really a monastery... is it!???
Its more of a coptic center / retreat.
Can we call it a monastery? I admit, it is stunning - sure... it smells really bad - sure!! (and we all know why that is!)
But, its not really a monastery... is it!???
Its more of a coptic center / retreat.
this can prove it is:
http://www.saman-church.org/English.htm
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5580.msg74536#msg74536 date=1184851762]
Can we call it a monastery? I admit, it is stunning - sure... it smells really bad - sure!! (and we all know why that is!)
But, its not really a monastery... is it!???
Its more of a coptic center / retreat.
this can prove it is:
http://www.saman-church.org/English.htm
Do u all agree that the area around it smells so bad??
My cousin told me that the garbage business is huge, and those people collecting trash are very rich. Is that true? For the life of me, I felt so bad for them. They were up to their heads in cowdung and filth... it looked so bad.
As for a monastery, im sorry to tell u, that its really dirty now. And its because the Coptic kids don't take care of it. The toilets are sooo filthy.
Furthermore, I heard that its used by protestant and anglican groups... should we be allowing that? They come to our Church and start singing in their "tongue" languages... What does everyone here think?
Furthermore, I heard that its used by protestant and anglican groups... should we be allowing that? They come to our Church and start singing in their "tongue" languages... What does everyone here think?
i see no problem in allowing user groups whom are identified as anglicans and protestants to utilise a church facility as long as they show respect and attempt to keep it in a clean and orderly fashion...
I wasnt complaining at all... im just surprised. I hope it leads to unity - as its in the Moqattam that cross-denominations meet every year.
Furthermore, I heard that its used by protestant and anglican groups... should we be allowing that? They come to our Church and start singing in their "tongue" languages... What does everyone here think?
as Christians, we give unto one another even if we are extremely different dogmatically.
Dogma and doctrine is not some unimportant secondary issue that divides a single family of Christians. That God is one in three Persons is a dogma, that the second Person became man is a dogma, that He died for our sins is a dogma, that He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven is a dogma.
The fact that we even aknowledge Protestants as Christians is that, although they have strayed far from the Truth, they have retained some of the essential dogmas that define our faith.
Dogmas are not about technical terms in books, but are concerned about the living Truth and our relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Truth is not subjective, and while a single Truth can be expressed in many ways, this does not condone heresy. According to the canons of the Orthodox Church, a non-Orthodox person is technically not even supposed to enter the main part of the church building during the Liturgy of the Faithful, so the idea that a consecrated church building is a free-for-all doesn't seem right.
Of course, this is a pastoral issue, and letting others use the church could be a good thing if it helps bring them to the Truth - and so I'm not passing judgment on anyone. But if it amounts to an acceptance of heresy as unimportant or acceptable, then it is irresponsible. The vast majority of Protestant churches have altars used to celebrate the Eucharist.
there is nothing wrong with allowing ppl to utilise the facility external to church lirturgy times
I understand and fully agree..but as of "heresy", they don't use the church during our services nor do they enter our altar. It is empty when they're there..so then, what's the problem?
Would you be ok with the church building being used as a nightclub as long as no one entered the altar and no service was happening?
(I'm not saying nightclubs and Protestant worship are the same thing by the way, just giving you an extreme example to illustrate the point.)
Should a building consecrated and built for the glory of God and the performing of His holy Sacraments, be used for the preaching of false doctrine, and a form of worship incompatible with the teachings of Christ and His Church?
no altar
no sanctuary
no center aisle
no Mangalia
nothing
Also, I realized that we are really off topic
we started out talking about plucking out eyes and now we're on how moqattam monsestary is being used by anglicans
how did that happen?
[quote author=ServantOfJesus link=topic=5580.msg74797#msg74797 date=1185248105]
I understand and fully agree..but as of "heresy", they don't use the church during our services nor do they enter our altar. It is empty when they're there..so then, what's the problem?
Would you be ok with the church building being used as a nightclub as long as no one entered the altar and no service was happening?
(I'm not saying nightclubs and Protestant worship are the same thing by the way, just giving you an extreme example to illustrate the point.)
Should a building consecrated and built for the glory of God and the performing of His holy Sacraments, be used for the preaching of false doctrine, and a form of worship incompatible with the teachings of Christ and His Church?
You said it yourself. A nightclub is not even relevant to the heresies of protestantism. If His Holiness is okay with it, however, then so am I.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic] Oh boy. In my opinion, this is definitely NOT the best mind-set to have. All patriarchs are human, and thus, are susceptible to mistakes. Just because a patriarch thinks something is okay, does not make it okay (as an example, look at Nestorius, the Patriarch of Constantinople).
Absolutely. God knows where mere followers of heretic fathers of the ancient church got... But I respect His Holiness Pope Shenouda specifically and I think it very inappropriate to compare him to the heretics of old... His decisions are far wiser than mine or any on this forum. So out of respect and trust for our shepherd, along with agreement on his prudent outlook, I cannot agree with you. I understand all mankind is susceptible to sin, yet His Holiness's decision on allowing protestants to utilize an Orthodox sanctuary does not at all seem erroneous to me for obvious reasons I have already stated. I do not agree with His Holiness mindlessly or simply because "he is a patriarch".
Please do not think that I believe our pope to be a heretic. That was not my intent. I was just illustrating an example of the fallibility of man, including one elected to the position of the Patriarchate. That being said, H.H.'s allowance of Protestants to use an empty church for service does not make him a heretic. However, that does not mean that such actions are correct either. In the end, it's a matter of how one views the Protestant denominations in relation to the Church.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but I just wanted to illustrate that it is the spirit of the verse that is implied than the literalism if we extend the verse further. I mean, where do we stop: the tongue, the ears, the legs, the hands, the reproductive organs, the ...
Sorry, I went back on topic...
GB
I like this topic about allowing protestant denomitations use our churches. I think that if they are just using it to sing, or hold bible discussions; then its OK. But if they use it for preaching purposes, or to hold their own worshipping practices, then its not because then we are allowing our church, which is an icon of Heaven to be used for worship services that our church taks does not call for, such as dancing during church hymns. Again, this is just my opinion.
I will start another string to continue this discussion, as we have veered off topic like GB said.
Thank you,
Bishoy
No problem GB.
I like this topic about allowing protestant denomitations use our churches. I think that if they are just using it to sing, or hold bible discussions; then its OK. But if they use it for preaching purposes, or to hold their own worshipping practices, then its not because then we are allowing our church, which is an icon of Heaven to be used for worship services that our church taks does not call for, such as dancing during church hymns. Again, this is just my opinion.
I will start another string to continue this discussion, as we have veered off topic like GB said.
Thank you,
Bishoy
Bishoy, I'm glad you said that. Perhaps that's where the discrepancy lies. They use the sanctuary merely for prayer and praise; no heretical teaching because they too consider it heretical to teach their doctrine in a sanctuary which is so against it... That is probably why our views are so varied. I understand why one would be against a protestant pastor suddenly teaching how saints are heretical in an orthodox sanctuary filled with them. Milla Grazie ;D