Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
Give up your life?
I'll keep my own opinion to myself for the time being, for now, what I want to know is this:
[glow=red,2,300]What's your view one taking a bullet for another, going out to war to protect [not kill] people... etc.[/glow]
[move] Relevant Bible verses WELCOME!!! [/move]
[glow=red,2,300]What's your view one taking a bullet for another, going out to war to protect [not kill] people... etc.[/glow]
[move] Relevant Bible verses WELCOME!!! [/move]
Comments
going to war is an honorable thing, but also is not for everyone. lets not forget our great Saints, MariMina and MariGirgis, were both roman soldiers, they were protected and fighting for their countries, ill try to keep looking into this topic cause i have to go at the moment lol sorry but ill post later on.
John 15:13:
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
this ofcourse makes a point to what you were saying, giving your life to a friend is an ultimate sacrifice, and presentation of love. This is a straight example of Christ who gave his life for those whom he loved, hope i helped a bit
Pray For my weaknesses
logically, if we were to be, our thinking would defnitley be much different...b/c at that point in time u'll be looking death straight in the eye, and it will take a ENORMOUS amount of love and guts to take a bullet for a perosn
So say that person were to be a family member, most of us would do it blindfoldedly because we truly love them....but had he been a stranger would we still do it? I mean would we honeslty contemplate on the Love we ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE for this complete and random stranger?
[move][/move]
This verse is where all this comes from.. But I seem to interpret it in a different way to everyone else..
when it says 'lay dow one's life' i don't think it means that we should die for our friends.. Because think about it.. the matter of life and death is in the hands of God, if it's someones time to go.. then it's someones time to go.. we can't control that and I don't think we should try.. suicide is considered the ultimate sin bacause of these [and other] reasons.. why is this any different.. ?
This verse says lovee, and it obviously speaks about love as a sacrifice.. but tell me this, when we die, we will leave the world behind, right? we will finally go to paradise, we will finally meet Jesus.. How are we sacrificing ANYTHING? besides the world that is.. and there's not much there to sacrifice.. It's almost like taking away someone else's opportunity to finally go to Jesus and live forever with Him..
I believe this verse means that we should LIVE for others, not die for them... Living for others is the true sacrifice.. it is love.. not death.
If you disagree.. please tell me why, EXPLAIN!!
CONVINCE mE!!
I have discussed this with others before and have not yet met anyone who agrees, though no one has really brought forward any valid points to WHY it is they don't agree...
BIBLE REFERENCES to support what you say would be appreciated :) .
but like lets keep in mind that Jesus our ultimate model gave his life for us as a sign of his never ending lvoe for us
By us giving our lives for someone else would mean that we are not prisoners of this world that we are true Christians who are willign to give their lives up for others. And blessed be he who gives his life for someone he doesnt even know because that shows that he loves this person for hte right reasons, beacuse God Created Him.
Also lets not forget Luke 17:33
Whoever shall seek to save his life, shall lose it; and whoever shall lose his life, shall preserve it.
That too proves my point.. Jesus' sacrifice was taking the blame, SUFFERING for us.. on apocalypse night we sing half happy/half sad hymns because the suffering is over, When Jesus died, He returned to His glory.. So Jesus' sacrifice was not His death, but His suffering. Therefore, we shouldn't die for others.. but suffer for them...
[quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=5628.msg75330#msg75330 date=1186676530]
By us giving our lives for someone else would mean that we are not prisoners of this world that we are true Christians who are willign to give their lives up for others.
Yes.. good point.. but you can also prove that by LIVING for another person.. The way I see it, that sacrifice is harder.. Because if you leave the world.. it's like running away from it, not proving that you don't want it.
[quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=5628.msg75330#msg75330 date=1186676530]
Also lets not forget Luke 17:33
Whoever shall seek to save his life, shall lose it; and whoever shall lose his life, shall preserve it.
Yes, that can obviously be interpreted both ways. ;)
It was argued that those who die are fleeing from the world. I disagree. I take a lot of courage and faith to believe that the world is vanity. Dying for others doesn't come swiftly. Even those in death row are frightened of their execution, even though it is usually done in the most "humane" or painless way known. And you are dying for someone else- it is not like you are getting Euthanasia- someone is going to die and you take the person's place. There is no option at that point except- him/her or yourself. There is no, instead I will live for them. We are already living for Christ- but just as ready as He died for us, are we expected to do so for others. That is a troubling thought- one that needs faith- not one of cowardice and rebellion.
Hizz_child said "because if you leave the world...it's like running away from it, not proving you don't want it".
You don't run from something that you do want, for starters. And running is mostly painless, death is final. Let's not cheapen the sacrifices of the Martyrs.
Hizz_Chiilld,
The verse you mentioned is actually one of my favorite verses; you will notice that it's also my signature on this site. Your interpretation of this verse is quite compelling, and I agree. St. John Chrysostom also describes this verse in a similar vein. In Homily 77 he eloquently explains this verse and not one does he mention death. Rather, he stresses that Christ told the disciples to rejoice and that his death was the fulfillment of their joy because it would bring them the Spirit of Truth.
Here is a link to the Homily itself: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240177.htm
It is suffering that we are repenting during the Passover, but the ultimate sacrifice in which we take solace and comfort is His death, for above the earth hanging from the Cross did Christ reign.
See, I don't think death was Christs' sacrifice at all... I think His death was the end of His suffering, marking the completion of the sacrificee.... I'm not talking about life/death senarios.. that depends on the situation.. and there's a thousand we can mention. I guess I'm really saying that people are so focussed on death as a sacrifice.. that they don't even consider the other side of the equation.
The reason I don't think death is the ultimate sacrifice is because when you die, you will no longer suffer, no longer fight the world.. you will rest... Yes but you might not want it, and at the same time, not want to have to fight it. Sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying.. elaborate please :)
You cannot segregate the death from His dire moments of dying. And, He may have received mercy, to continue the life He had of blessing, had He sinned and admitted He had elevated Himself to God 'wrongly'. But He did not. His last breath revealed a God-Man, who set aside earthly glory so that we should live. His death was the ultimate sacrifice. As His lifeless body remained fixated on the wooden cross, no longer in His control, was a picture that would be captivated in the minds of many- one who was given every opportunity to avoid it, but with a tranquility accepted all that bereft Him of His former glory- even to His dying breath.
It was the completion of His sacrifice- but without it being completed- it was a sacrifice in vain. Dying is not dying if there is no death. Finality makes the sacrifice all the more remarkable.
Muslims believe that such a God-fearing man should not have met His end in such a pitiful way- that He had survived the Cross! This just illustrated the exacerbation of Muhammad at the idea that a holy man could have allowed to die so devoid of glory. To him, and to many, death is the very symbol of one's life. The way one dies is ultimately knitted to one's dignity. Many who opt for Euthanasia do not do so just to avoid greater anticipated pain, but to "die with dignity". This is what personifies Christ- that our ultimate dignity, though dust, could be born from such derisive and ultimate shame.
And at that moment, for all who believe, death has lost its sting.
So when we die for our brothers, we in effect triumph and give them an enduring and salient imagery of Christ- one that they can treasure, knowing that you have held their life to such esteem that you forfeited your very own. What greater love is there than this?
The death of a criminal is the ultimate picture of defeat- a ransom paid, a menace expunged. The excruciating pain endured by Christ was not the ultimate defeat- for there was hope for the onlookers, that this godly man would be saved. And if His suffering had not ensue death- what sacrifice is that? Do we not say not only was He a sheep led to the slaughter, but one who loved us to the end.
You cannot segregate the death from His dire moments of dying. And, He may have received mercy, to continue the life He had of blessing, had He sinned and admitted He had elevated Himself to God 'wrongly'. But He did not. His last breath revealed a God-Man, who set aside earthly glory so that we should live. His death was the ultimate sacrifice. As His lifeless body remained fixated on the wooden cross, no longer in His control, was a picture that would be captivated in the minds of many- one who was given every opportunity to avoid it, but with a tranquility accepted all that bereft Him of His former glory- even to His dying breath.
It was the completion of His sacrifice- but without it being completed- it was a sacrifice in vain. Dying is not dying if there is no death. Finality makes the sacrifice all the more remarkable.
Muslims believe that such a God-fearing man should not have met His end in such a pitiful way- that He had survived the Cross! This just illustrated the exacerbation of Muhammad at the idea that a holy man could have allowed to die so devoid of glory. To him, and to many, death is the very symbol of one's life. The way one dies is ultimately knitted to one's dignity. Many who opt for Euthanasia do not do so just to avoid greater anticipated pain, but to "die with dignity". This is what personifies Christ- that our ultimate dignity, though dust, could be born from such derisive and ultimate shame.
And at that moment, for all who believe, death has lost its sting.
So when we die for our brothers, we in effect triumph and give them an enduring and salient imagery of Christ- one that they can treasure, knowing that you have held their life to such esteem that you forfeited your very own. What greater love is there than this?
Hmm.. I can see what your saying.... of course His death was important, and I do agree with everything you said except one thing, I don't believe that His sacrfice was His actual death.. but HOW He died... The fact that He suffered so we wouldn't...
When we say sin is worthy of death, it is not death from the life we live on Earth, but eternal death. Eternity without God, an eternity of pain and suffering.. Jesus went through this suffering.. so that through repentance, we could be spared. His death from His life on Earth was NOT what saved us... well that's what I've gathered anyway...
Reply :)
Hmm.. I can see what your saying.... of course His death was important, and I do agree with everything you said except one thing, I don't believe that His sacrfice was His actual death.. but HOW He died... The fact that He suffered so we wouldn't...
When we say sin is worthy of death, it is not death from the life we live on Earth, but eternal death. Eternity without God, an eternity of pain and suffering.. Jesus went through this suffering.. so that through repentance, we could be spared. His death from His life on Earth was NOT what saved us... well that's what I've gathered anyway...
Reply :)
Can I just say before I share my views, that I really revere your views, though I do not altogether see eye to eye.
The premise "The fact that He suffered so that we wouldn't" , I believe, begs the question. This statement is quite ambiguous for the purposes of this discussion, and can be considered fallacious in light of the martyrs. And it was further complicated when you said that "eternity without God, an eternity of..suffering". Did Christ suffer thus? I was impelled to sit back and ponder. At the outset, Christ went into Hades, not Hell from what I understand and thus did not suffer the everlasting punishment that is reserved after Judgment. So He didn't suffer this eternity of suffering that waits for me if I don't repent.
Rather His suffering was that He became a curse for us before God the Father. To further deliberate, consider the final suffering and deaths of St. Peter, St. Paul, St Stephen, St George, St Marina, St. Demiana and all the martyrs. The glory of their death can only be seen in the significance of the Cross- that the curse of death had been lifted to any who believes.
Christ suffered so we should not have to receive everlasting death- but we can and we have been told that the way of Salvation is a narrow path, and the witness of the martyrs show that many a time, it ends and simultaneous begins with death. What formerly was utter abandonment and defeat, has become everlasting union and triumph.
St Athanasius scribed,
[center]"But if any honest Christian wants to know why He suffered death on the cross and not in some other way, we answer thus:
in no other way was it expedient for us, indeed the Lord offered for our sakes the one death that was supremely good. He had come to bear the curse that lay on us; and how could He "become a curse"[3] otherwise than by accepting the accursed death? And that death is the cross, for it is written "Cursed is every one that hangeth on tree."[4]
Again, the death of the Lord is the ransom of all, and by it "the middle wall of partition"[5] is broken down and the call of the Gentiles comes about. How could He have called us if He had not been crucified, for it is only on the cross that a man dies with arms outstretched? Here, again, we see the fitness of His death and of those outstretched arms: it was that He might draw His ancient people with the one and the Gentiles with the other, and join both together in Himself. Even so, He foretold the manner of His redeeming death, "I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Myself."[6]
Again, the air is the sphere of the devil, the enemy of our race who, having fallen from heaven, endeavors with the other evil spirits who shared in his disobedience both to keep souls from the truth and to hinder the progress of those who are trying to follow it. The apostle refers to this when he says, "According to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience."[7] But the Lord came to overthrow the devil and to purify the air and to make "a way" for us up to heaven, as the apostle says, "through the veil, that is to say, His flesh."[8] This had to be done through death, and by what other kind of death could it be done, save by a death in the air, that is, on the cross?
Here, again, you see how right and natural it was that the Lord should suffer thus; for being thus "lifted up," He cleansed the air from all the evil influences of the enemy. "I beheld Satan as lightning falling,"[9] He says; and thus He re-opened the road to heaven, saying again, "Lift up your gates, O ye princes, and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors."[10] For it was not the Word Himself Who needed an opening of the gates, He being Lord of all, nor was any of His works closed to their Maker. No, it was we who needed it, we whom He Himself upbore in His own body—that body which He first offered to death on behalf of all, and then made through it a path to heaven."[/center]
(On the Incarnation, Chapter 4, section 25; editing into paragraphs was done to make for easier reading)
3. Gal. iii. 13.
4. Gal. iii. 13.
5. Eph. ii. 14.
6. John xii. 32.
7. Eph. ii. 2.
8. Heb. x. 20.
9. Luke x. 18.
10. Psalm xxiv. 7.
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm
The premise "The fact that He suffered so that we wouldn't" , I believe, begs the question. This statement is quite ambiguous for the purposes of this discussion, and can be considered fallacious in light of the martyrs. And it was further complicated when you said that "eternity without God, an eternity of..suffering". Did Christ suffer thus? I was impelled to sit back and ponder. At the outset, Christ went into Hades, not Hell from what I understand and thus did not suffer the everlasting punishment that is reserved after Judgment. So He didn't suffer this eternity of suffering that waits for me if I don't repent.
I meant His physical suffering as a Human.. [ perhaps because it was the only suffering we could really understand?]
He is God, and He died for us.
You cannot compare the two...