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Plucking Your Eye Out (Church utilization)
This is the new string for discussing whether protestant groups should be allowed to use coptic churches for their services.
Comments
This is the new string for discussing whether protestant groups should be allowed to use coptic churches for their services.
none would allow it.
But protestant groups are already able to use the church at mokataam, (thats wat i was told at the other string)
please verify that. that sound weird. but i guess they might let them use it since we wouldn't have a reason to not to.
The pope would never allow such a thing to go on. I am pretty sure if this got to the pope or even a general bishop he would stop it immediately.
well that's what am saying. if u can't fully say NO because now you would be making much diffrence and than they'll blame HH. u don't want to saparate as much.
I made this new string just cuz the other posts got off topic. So i'm not really sure if protestants are using the church, just replying to another member's post.
Bach to Al Mokatam Monastery, it is a vast huge open place with many churches, stadium, shops, museum, murals, cafeterias an so on, it is not by itself a monastery in the real sense of the word. It is open to anyone to visit and if they would like to assemble in one of its stadium, being not consecrated with the Holy Myroon, so be it, nothing wrong, it is a public place!!!
[quote author=Anba Bishoy link=topic=5640.msg75242#msg75242 date=1186509265]
The pope would never allow such a thing to go on. I am pretty sure if this got to the pope or even a general bishop he would stop it immediately.
well that's what am saying. if u can't fully say NO because now you would be making much diffrence and than they'll blame HH. u don't want to saparate as much.
But the pope would have a point that we are not in communion with them so they can't use our alters. Also it is our property if the want we can help them find or even build a place for them but not let them pray where we pray sense it would be using an alter for two religions. It would be like using a mosque for a church.
But the pope would have a point that we are not in communion with them so they can't use our alters. Also it is our property if the want we can help them find or even build a place for them but not let them pray where we pray sense it would be using an alter for two religions. It would be like using a mosque for a church.
that's another thing....they don't need altars. they are protestants, and most of the ones in egypt don't have liturgies. so.....
The reason is this:
We venerate Saint Mary. We ask for her prayers. We have her icons and kiss her icons. They don't respect her this way. We should not invite people in our houses when we KNOW they disrespect one of our parents. Why??? What can we say to saint mary when we have a prayer meeting in our room : "Sorry, could you leave, because these people don't really like your presence as much as us?"
THEY SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN OUR CHURCH TO USE IT FOR THEIR PARTICULAR PRAYER MEETINGS!!!
However, catholics, YES!! This is different. We venerate Saint Mary, and they ask for her prayers also. We have differences, but through respect of what we have in common, reconciliation can occur. The protestants divided from the Catholics. Its best they find themselves with the catholics and use catholic churches for their prayer meetings. This would be ideal. Its a problem the catholics HAVE to endure. We shouldnt have to pay the price for what went wrong in the catholic church when the protestant sect spawned from this Church!!
THEY SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN OUR CHURCH TO USE IT FOR THEIR PARTICULAR PRAYER MEETINGS!!!
However, catholics, YES!! This is different. We venerate Saint Mary, and they ask for her prayers also. We have differences, but through respect of what we have in common, reconciliation can occur. The protestants divided from the Catholics. Its best they find themselves with the catholics and use catholic churches for their prayer meetings. This would be ideal. Its a problem the catholics HAVE to endure. We shouldnt have to pay the price for what went wrong in the catholic church when the protestant sect spawned from this Church!!
u can't just go tell them NO....why, because they are still considered christians. hard to deal with and accept yes, but it's our world today.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5640.msg75306#msg75306 date=1186659621]
THEY SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN OUR CHURCH TO USE IT FOR THEIR PARTICULAR PRAYER MEETINGS!!!
However, catholics, YES!! This is different. We venerate Saint Mary, and they ask for her prayers also. We have differences, but through respect of what we have in common, reconciliation can occur. The protestants divided from the Catholics. Its best they find themselves with the catholics and use catholic churches for their prayer meetings. This would be ideal. Its a problem the catholics HAVE to endure. We shouldnt have to pay the price for what went wrong in the catholic church when the protestant sect spawned from this Church!!
u can't just go tell them NO....why, because they are still considered christians. hard to deal with and accept yes, but it's our world today.
No! It should not hard to say "no". Jehovah's witnesses are also christians, and Mormons etc.. can we give them our Church to run prayer meetings to start to say blasphemous things in Church.
A protestant will NOT accept our Divinity. They do not acknowledge priesthood. They do not acknowledge the purity and virginity of saint Mary.
I truly love protestants, and wish us to be one, but i will not ask any guest to leave the house to invite a friend who wants to sit in their place. At that point I have to say to them :" Please.. u are invited, but respect who we have in our Church".
No! It should not hard to say "no". Jehovah's witnesses are also christians, and Mormons etc.. can we give them our Church to run prayer meetings to start to say blasphemous things in Church.
A protestant will NOT accept our Divinity. They do not acknowledge priesthood. They do not acknowledge the purity and virginity of saint Mary.
I truly love protestants, and wish us to be one, but i will not ask any guest to leave the house to invite a friend who wants to sit in their place. At that point I have to say to them :" Please.. u are invited, but respect who we have in our Church".
well u said it rit in the last paragraph. u can't ask the people of the house to be replaced with guests.
but if the people are not there, the gues may use it in of course the limits we put.
the thing is that u can't say NO, why because they're still Christians. by saying NO, ur not only denying wah they belive, which we are allready against, but ur denying there full faith in Christianty.
if they accept upon themselves to pray in a church that does against their belifes, than to me, that really means their "faith" is just baloney.
No. I disagree with you strongly here.
What will happen is this:
The protestant groups, rather than being guests in our CHurch, will make us feel like guests in our own Church, and perhaps influence our youth with their "charismatic" prayer style.
If they are guests in our Church, why don't we invite them and say :"OK.. look, let's pray together... here is the Agpeya... let's start". We open the agpeya, and we start to pray saying things that they may not be "OK" about:
We will say :"My sins are ever before me". Protestants believe that they are not before us. THere are no sins we need to keep before us.
We will say :"Hail Mary " - in the Agpeya. We will adress the Holy Mother in our prayers as the "Mother of Heaven" and ask her to open for us the "Gates of Mercy".
How can we expect them to pray with us??
However, if we replaced these protestants with Catholic Christians, then they'd love it (the catholics!). They'd truly enjoy praying with the Agpeya. The more we venerated Saint Mary, the more they'd feel "at home" in our CHurch.
We can't let ANY tom dick and harry just pray whatever they want in our Church, EVEN if we are "OK" about what they say. We have to keep our Orthodox traditions.
Its totally wrong to allow protestant prayer groups in Coptic Churches.
Allowing them to come and pray WITH US, - GReat IDEA!!!
Giving them a prayer meeting to run in our Church - Bad IDEA!! We will end up as the guest in our Church, and put Saint Mary on the sideline, as well as all the other Saints that our Church holds so dear to herself.
Hi Mina,
No. I disagree with you strongly here.
What will happen is this:
The protestant groups, rather than being guests in our CHurch, will make us feel like guests in our own Church, and perhaps influence our youth with their "charismatic" prayer style.
If they are guests in our Church, why don't we invite them and say :"OK.. look, let's pray together... here is the Agpeya... let's start". We open the agpeya, and we start to pray saying things that they may not be "OK" about:
We will say :"My sins are ever before me". Protestants believe that they are not before us. THere are no sins we need to keep before us.
We will say :"Hail Mary " - in the Agpeya. We will adress the Holy Mother in our prayers as the "Mother of Heaven" and ask her to open for us the "Gates of Mercy".
How can we expect them to pray with us??
However, if we replaced these protestants with Catholic Christians, then they'd love it (the catholics!). They'd truly enjoy praying with the Agpeya. The more we venerated Saint Mary, the more they'd feel "at home" in our CHurch.
We can't let ANY tom dick and harry just pray whatever they want in our Church, EVEN if we are "OK" about what they say. We have to keep our Orthodox traditions.
Its totally wrong to allow protestant prayer groups in Coptic Churches.
Allowing them to come and pray WITH US, - GReat IDEA!!!
Giving them a prayer meeting to run in our Church - Bad IDEA!! We will end up as the guest in our Church, and put Saint Mary on the sideline, as well as all the other Saints that our Church holds so dear to herself.
ya habibi.....
first they are not praying with us. ur just providing the place.
second, stop supporting Catholics. they were the main reason for the Protestant reformation.
third, stop, and am saying stop making everything in a dramatic way that is just full of nagatives.
fourth, our Orthodox traditions never said anything about denying ppl in general. if u would think about it now, they would meet in the place in our church and if they can't find any other place to go to, may be they'll reconsider our faith.
fifth....... OUR CHURCH WILL STAY THE SAME TILL THE END OF TIME. She survived 2000 yrs and it will go on forever. a small advice vassillios, worry about ur own salavtion first...and than the rest of ur church. because i know ur church and mine will stay forever.
Mina,
The Coptic CHurch in the UK has suffered greatly because of thiis: They invited protestants to come and pray in the Church. Now we no longer sing the tasbeha, but instead sing silly romantic protestant songs.
As for supporting catholics, i prefer to pray with them than with protestants.
Mina,
The Coptic CHurch in the UK has suffered greatly because of thiis: They invited protestants to come and pray in the Church. Now we no longer sing the tasbeha, but instead sing silly romantic protestant songs.
i think we have spoken before aobut this in atleast 2 other posts and u still repeat the same thing. and our church didn't suffer walla 7aga. do u see anba Angelos going mad becasue of that...NO. so there is nothing of that seriousness happending. that's ur own opinion.
mine is that i wont pray with eiither. our church have many mystries to just leave em and go pray with others...with all do respect to praying and to those who do that.
anwys it's ur opinion and that is urs and u r not to use as a general view since its URs.
I'm allowed my opinion. I didnt generalise, nor humiliate any minority group. The thread concerns allowing our Church to be used by other denominations such as protestants.
My opinion is that : no it shouldnt. It would be best to let it be used by only the Orthodox and Catholic denominations.
I truly believe that an opinion can be incorrect, and that not all opinions may be holy or from God, however, after hearing what u have to say, I cannot see why what my opinion states is in anyway wrong, nor deserves the kind of response from you.
The Coptic CHurch in the UK has suffered greatly because of thiis: They invited protestants to come and pray in the Church. Now we no longer sing the tasbeha, but instead sing silly romantic protestant songs.
This is actually not QT being over dramatic, its what much of the Coptic church in the UK is like.
The youth read Protestant books, sing Protestant songs, use a Protestant format for Bible studies and prayer meetings, etc. A large number of Copts in London regularly attend the non-denominational (Protestant) church HTB.
Of course the Agpia, tasbeha, etc. have not been totally abandoned, but the Protestant influence is immense.
I'll leave it up to the individuals here to make up their own minds about whether this is right or wrong, but this is the situation. If we're sticking to the Canons of the Church, we shouldn't pray with either :P
Mina,
I'm allowed my opinion. I didnt generalise, nor humiliate any minority group. The thread concerns allowing our Church to be used by other denominations such as protestants.
My opinion is that : no it shouldnt. It would be best to let it be used by only the Orthodox and Catholic denominations.
I truly believe that an opinion can be incorrect, and that not all opinions may be holy or from God, however, after hearing what u have to say, I cannot see why what my opinion states is in anyway wrong, nor deserves the kind of response from you.
will it's ur opinion.
I wouldn't mind our youth going to HTB, but to go and bring this charismatic prayer style in our Church is dangerous. We dilute our spiritual and orthodox traditions with this stuff.
All this started because a lot of our leaders went to HTB because they thought they were being "cool" and open minded in going and praying with other denominations. Yet, they went and brought that stuff back to the Orthodox church. THen they invite protestant pastors etc to give talks to us.
Now, for Anba Angelos, He is a good Bishop; yet he probably has a strategy here: He allows this because apparently, IT WAS WORSE BEFORE (from what he tells me!). He is a very orthodox bishop. I cannot fault him. But he was given youth, whom he loves dearly, that have tendencies to invite protestant prayer into the Church. He cannot therefore tell them all off. They are wonderful kids (youth!!). Bit by bit, he is trying to curb the situation more and more by doing more songs in English (from Coptic) so the youth do not go looking for "english" protestant songs.
This is a serious situation we are in, and it all began by letting protestants in our Church as guests and we denied and hid our own Orthodox identity in the hope of making them feel "at home". Now they are at "home" with us, we have lost our identity. We do not venerate Saint Mary in front of them. We do not ask for the intercession of saints in front of them (lest they be offended), we do not pray from the Agpeya with them because it means they cannot sing in their "tongues".
Its quite serious in the UK. That's all i can tell u
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5640.msg75323#msg75323 date=1186672366]
Mina,
I'm allowed my opinion. I didnt generalise, nor humiliate any minority group. The thread concerns allowing our Church to be used by other denominations such as protestants.
My opinion is that : no it shouldnt. It would be best to let it be used by only the Orthodox and Catholic denominations.
I truly believe that an opinion can be incorrect, and that not all opinions may be holy or from God, however, after hearing what u have to say, I cannot see why what my opinion states is in anyway wrong, nor deserves the kind of response from you.
This is very confusing to me you are just saying to one group no and the other sure how do you think the protestants will feel. How would you feel if you were put in that position. This thread is talking about people using our churches. Will I am against it, I would like to see ALL Christians to unite and if by being friendly to the guests they like the house and want to unite then I am okay with that. But I THINK that the church as a whole would not agree to have people just use our church. I think it is better if we say to them come and pray with us not come use the house every now and then and expect them to just freely give up their religion. Another thing if they don't need an alter then why use a church and no just a big room or place???
Hi. Well, I'm saying that i'd PREFER to pray with catholics and let them use our Church than protestants. The problem is this: We give the Moqattam to Anglicans and Protestants groups - not catholics. I'm not suggesting that we give it to anyone.. but, yes - i would prefer catholics.
I'd side now with Orthodox11: we shouldnt be giving our Church to ANY GROUP.
[quote author=Anba Bishoy link=topic=5640.msg75327#msg75327 date=1186674309]
This is very confusing to me you are just saying to one group no and the other sure how do you think the protestants will feel. How would you feel if you were put in that position. This thread is talking about people using our churches. Will I am against it, I would like to see ALL Christians to unite and if by being friendly to the guests they like the house and want to unite then I am okay with that. But I THINK that the church as a whole would not agree to have people just use our church. I think it is better if we say to them come and pray with us not come use the house every now and then and expect them to just freely give up their religion. Another thing if they don't need an alter then why use a church and no just a big room or place???
Hi. Well, I'm saying that i'd PREFER to pray with catholics and let them use our Church than protestants. The problem is this: We give the Moqattam to Anglicans and Protestants groups - not catholics. I'm not suggesting that we give it to anyone.. but, yes - i would prefer catholics.
when was this written!!!
anywys...for some reason i still dono what is ur source of that about the Moqattam. and even if that is rit...the monastery in the Moqattem is HUGE. am sure there is a place that is not a church for them to meet at. well Orthodox11 didn't say we shouldn't give the church to anyone...he just agreed with me when i said we shouldn't pray with either. praying with them is diffrent than giving them the place to pray in.
You seem very argumentative. What is your opinion exactly? Are you for allowing other denominations to use our Church or not?
Decide and let us know.
If you feel that we should not be praying with either group - well.. OK. I can respect that. I personally cannot pray with protestants. I can pray with Catholics, and i definately prefer to pray with Orthodox. I hate praying with Orthodox Christians singing protestant songs in our Church. What about u??
Also, if u respond, could u just respond without getting angry or hostile? You are entitled to ur opinion, and I'm to mine.
If you watch Sat7, you'll see that the Moqattam is being used by a lot of Evangelical groups in Egypt. I think they use it because it's quite "breathtaking". All I care about it is that it is a Coptic Church, and people should pray according to our ways when they come to our Church. (that's my personal opinion)
So having said that, I think it's a great idea to let protestants pray in church, because the church is always open to any and every body. But, You should never remove your roots for them. You should not cancel tasbeha, Agpeya, or any other orthodox rituals for them, because little by little they will take over and little by little the Holy liturgy and other sacraments will be canceled because of them.
Now Preaching is a controversial topic, but my personal openion is, if it is not the holy liturgy or Raising of Incense then any body can preach. So if a protestant wants to preach in a regular church meeting he can as long as he doen't touch the Coptic Orthodox roots. He can just talk about the spiritual aspects of Christianity, but stay away from Doctrine, Dogma, or theology that is not the same in both denominations.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5640.msg75328#msg75328 date=1186674876]
[quote author=Anba Bishoy link=topic=5640.msg75327#msg75327 date=1186674309]
This is very confusing to me you are just saying to one group no and the other sure how do you think the protestants will feel. How would you feel if you were put in that position. This thread is talking about people using our churches. Will I am against it, I would like to see ALL Christians to unite and if by being friendly to the guests they like the house and want to unite then I am okay with that. But I THINK that the church as a whole would not agree to have people just use our church. I think it is better if we say to them come and pray with us not come use the house every now and then and expect them to just freely give up their religion. Another thing if they don't need an alter then why use a church and no just a big room or place???
Hi. Well, I'm saying that i'd PREFER to pray with catholics and let them use our Church than protestants. The problem is this: We give the Moqattam to Anglicans and Protestants groups - not catholics. I'm not suggesting that we give it to anyone.. but, yes - i would prefer catholics.
when was this written!!!
anywys...for some reason i still dono what is ur source of that about the Moqattam. and even if that is rit...the monastery in the Moqattem is HUGE. am sure there is a place that is not a church for them to meet at. well Orthodox11 didn't say we shouldn't give the church to anyone...he just agreed with me when i said we shouldn't pray with either. praying with them is diffrent than giving them the place to pray in.
Oh sorry Mina I wrote it and deleted after. But I did write it. SORRY
Mina,
You seem very argumentative. What is your opinion exactly? Are you for allowing other denominations to use our Church or not?
In general..no. but when some group actually come and ask to do so, if am the priest and i would have the space to accommodate them with limits to not effact my church and my people. of course alll of this is done under the guidence of the bishop of the area.
the thing is that u can't ask for unity if u can't do the first step...which is to accept and than deal with.
as i said before i wouldn't pray with eithor. now about the songs, we have spoken about it before and i think we said that if the song is suitable for our church, there is nothing wrong with it. i also remember saying in that topic that not everyone is good with alhan or really traditional songs. so we have to consider others.
but in general i wouldn't pray with other and deal with whart i have in my church. that's may be a little diffrent. i guess they use the space to broadcast from. i think in Sat7 there is somekind of unity between the churchs.
well Orthodox11 didn't say we shouldn't give the church to anyone...he just agreed with me when i said we shouldn't pray with either. praying with them is diffrent than giving them the place to pray in.
Although my point was that canonically we should not pray with heretics, I would also be inclined to say we should not allow heretics - be they Catholics, Protestants, Arians or Muslims - to use our churches.
Of course, there are exceptions in both cases.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5640.msg75329#msg75329 date=1186675941]
well Orthodox11 didn't say we shouldn't give the church to anyone...he just agreed with me when i said we shouldn't pray with either. praying with them is diffrent than giving them the place to pray in.
Although my point was that canonically we should not pray with heretics, I would also be inclined to say we should not allow heretics - be they Catholics, Protestants, Arians or Muslims - to use our churches.
Of course, there are exceptions in both cases.
well i guess so since u clearfied it. but i personnaly believe in the exceptions because that what happends mostly in reality.