Hi,
I was chatting with some muslims who asked me the following questions:
Can you help answer:
If EACH person (hypostases) in the Trinity is Equal with one another, then why did Christ say :"My Father is greater than I" ?
Does EACH hypostases (person) in the Holy Trinity have HIS OWN mind and Intellect??
Thanks
Comments
Secondly, let's examine the relationship of the Lord's relationship with the Father. We notice a myriad of verses:
""I and My Father are One" (Jn 10:30)
"for blasphemy, and because You being a Man make Yourself God" (Jn 10:31-33)
"Holy Father, Keep through Your Nam those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are" (Jn 17:11)
"I am in the Father, and the Father in Me" (Jn 14:10)
"For in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col 2:9)
"And all Mine are Yours and Yours are Mine" (Jn 17:10)
"who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God" (Phil 2:6)
I like this response: http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_father_greater.htm
But to cut to the chase, the Father is greater in rank and position being the eternal source of the Trinity, but not in essence or divinity.
First, I would suggest to your Muslim friend that if he intends to quote verses for the purposes of debate, then tell him to read the Bible as a whole first.
Secondly, let's examine the relationship of the Lord's relationship with the Father. We notice a myriad of verses:
""I and My Father are One" (Jn 10:30)
"for blasphemy, and because You being a Man make Yourself God" (Jn 10:31-33)
"Holy Father, Keep through Your Nam those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are" (Jn 17:11)
"I am in the Father, and the Father in Me" (Jn 14:10)
"For in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col 2:9)
"And all Mine are Yours and Yours are Mine" (Jn 17:10)
"who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God" (Phil 2:6)
I like this response: http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_father_greater.htm
But to cut to the chase, the Father is greater in rank and position being the eternal source of the Trinity, but not in essence or divinity.
Hello,
They are arguiing also that no where in the Bible did the Lord say He was the Son of God.
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
:D everyone must believe Archangel Gabriel's revelation don't they
Further: their very question about the verse implies that Christ is the Son
Plus, in
Luke 10, Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
in
John 1, The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
There are a lot more verses on this subject.
GBU
Mark 5:7
He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!"
and Luke 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!"
Our Lord Jesus own words in
John 5
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And He has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
and in John 10:35-37
35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.
John 19
7The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."
The Nature of Christ
http://www.copticchurch.org/Texts/Spirituals/Natofchr.pdf
The Divinity of Christ
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/divinity_of_christ_pope_shenouda.pdf
Helpful list
http://www.lacopts.org/index.php/articles/category_pope_shenouda_books/
DOes each person in the Trinity have His own personality, His own Will, and His Own Mind??
Please Please explain this?? Do they have their own will, but DO the will of the Father??
That's the only part i need to know.
Thanks
God is ONE and hence has but ONE HOLY WILL
Yes.. we know (the Will of the Father)... but does EACH person in the Trinity have His own personality? and His own mind, and intellect??
in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God. Amen
meaning the Three Persons (with three characteristics, or attributes) are One and definitely have One Will with One Supreme Intelect
Analysing verses in Genesis where God creates: "Let ....." and "Let Us ...."
specifically like in Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
them: now man becomes in God's Image hence the use of plural
GBU
We say:
in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God. Amen
meaning the Three Persons (with three characteristics, or attributes) are One and definitely have One Will with One Supreme Intelect
pls check verses in Genesis where God says: "Let Us ...."
GBU
Who has the supreme Intellect? Who has the supreme Will ?
I think there is an important detail that we have the tendency to omit in these debates: the Incarnation of the Son, Jesus Christ the Savior, Son of God AND son of man.
The Holy Trinity
I think there is an important detail that gets missed: the Incarnation of the Son, Jesus Christ the Savior, Son of God AND son of man.
Bonjour,
Well.. who , in the Trinity has the Supreme Will, who has the Supreme Intellect? Which person? which hypostases??
Also, when we say "supreme" will and "supreme" mind/intellect, does this imply that the other hypostases' will and intellect submit to that will and intellect? How does it work exactly??
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority*; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works*. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you** and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you**.
It is clear that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit do will and act as One. Jesus Christ speaks this way because He is the Savior, He is the Incarnate Word.
* while it's practically Our Lord Jesus speaking and doing the works: the Father works are seen through the Son, made by the Son
** same logic
orphans means: without the Father
In my limited human thoughts, there is an eternal totally willed complete and full triple mutually existing cooperation in the Holy Trinity. To our mind, different characteristics could mean different specialties but I believe God's Intellect and Will is One.
For the sake of showing He is now being so much closer to us and that He has opened for us the door of His Heavenly Kingdom, as the proof God's grace lets us know Him more and helps us to clearly see how great is His Love.
Hope I helped. Please pray for me and correct me if I'm wrong.
1) If the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son, then why was Our Lord praying to the Father in the garden of Gesthamane?
2) If Christ was praying to the Father, it means that both have independent minds? (please confirm). Each therefore has His own personality.
If we say that Christ is the beloved of the Father - it means it is a person other than Himself He loves, yet with the Son and the Holy Spirit, this is ONE God. How then can this be ONE God if these two persons are different and have different minds or intellects??
Perhaps this is wrong? In fact, it is wrong, and i think if someone corrected the above statement then everything will fit in place.
thanks
Manhood of the Incarnate Word prays as the Son of God, to His Father who is at the same time the Father of all mankind, who are believers and Christ followers.
Christ is the Beloved of the Father: beloved because He is His Son, and the Son (Word Godhead) is Him and in Him.
Totality of Power, Glory and full Love exist between the Holy Trinity, the One God.
Dear QT_PA_2T,
Manhood of the Incarnate Word prays as the Son of God, to His Father who is at the same time the Father of all mankind, who are believers and Christ followers.
Christ is the Beloved of the Father: beloved because He is His Son, and the Son (Word Godhead) is Him and in Him.
Totality of Power, Glory and full Love exist between the Holy Trinity, the One God.
Does each person of the Trinity have His won will, and own mind / intellect??
The Lord was praying in Gesthamane to set for us an example of what to do in hard times, He opened the doors to our salvation not only from the cross but from His actions. ex:fasting, praying, etc... He surely did not need to do any of those things for Himself but he did it for us, just as we say He fasted for us forty days and forty nights. Nothing He did was ever for himself but it was all for us. to answer your second comment, do you not love yourself? so does God love himself so therefore, His Son is Beloved to Him. they don't have two minds or two intellects but One Intellect and One Will and One Mind.
If they have ONE WIll, ONE Intellect, and ONE mind, then which person of the Trinity is the intellect? If this is the Word, Christ, then what role/function is the Father?? and what role is the Holy Spirit??
After fulfilling the Salvation of mankind, Jesus had to ascend to Heaven to His place on the right side of the Power, so that the Father will send the Holy Spirit to be poured first on the Disciples and all those who were patiently waiting in prayers with them, including St Mary and other Mary(s), on the day of the Pentecost (Acts: 2) - as Jesus commanded them earlier to do that.
Acts 1:3-5
3After his suffering, He showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the Kingdom of God. 4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
Fr Tadros Y. Malaty's sermons and books are guided by the Holy Spirit, that's why they are deep and spiritually very rich. I learned a lot from him and of course from our great HH Pope Shenouda III and many of his HH's student Clergy.
Yes you are quite correct, and anybody willing to learn can learn so much from his sermons and books and yes of course from HH Pope Shenouda III, i sure have
"If we say that Christ is the beloved of the Father - it means it is a person other than Himself He loves, yet with the Son and the Holy Spirit, this is ONE God. How then can this be ONE God if these two persons are different and have different minds or intellects??"
Christ has to be a hypostasis other than the Father. God is love, therefore God must exist of more than one hypostasis (if not, this would imply that God loved himself, and would consequently be, well, selfish). I know this has been said before but the will of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is One will. There is no supreme will, this would imply that one is greater than the other.
The Holy Trinity has one function, yet yeach hypostasis has a different role in that function. The Father is the begetter of the Son and the Emitter of the Holy Spirit, hence the Origin (why he is called Father). Because he is the Origin however, this does not mean that He is greater than any of the other two Hypostasis. To say that the Son existed after the Father would imply that before the existence of the Son, there was no Father. (How can a father be a father without a son?)
I hope I said something useful, Pray for me
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=5731.msg76543#msg76543 date=1189098599]
God is ONE and hence has but ONE HOLY WILL
Yes.. we know (the Will of the Father)... but does EACH person in the Trinity have His own personality? and His own mind, and intellect??
I would also like to say that the Will of God is not the Will of the Father (alone). This would imply that the other two Hypostasis have different Wills (which has been discussed before). I am sorry if I repeated anything but this is a very important topic in which everything has to be very clear...
as far as i know and believe is that 1. when it says they are equal it means that nothing is apart from each other they represent each other and everything that is done is not independent in any way what so ever therefore there is no question of independency in personality or anything of that sort.
Now u may say but ….. Why did He says that to reconfirm while still that the trinity are equal the God head is the father. That’s It stop right there.
It is like the world has been made the head of a family is meant to be the father but that doesn’t mean that the wife doesn’t make decisions or has her own will or personality or what ever i.e. they are u unit together but in a Christian family it is set out that the father is the head kalas full stop. I hope I said something useful, Pray for me
The father is the creator of heaven an earth this does make him greater than all. thats waht i believe
Now look at it from this point of view.
Why so are the martyrs so much more esteemed? This is because they have attained to be with God at the heist level their sacrifice corresponds to the highest level above all they themselves have attained the spirituality of being so close to God the trinity but ultimately to God the father. As such their personality is no loner of the world but more and more of God the head and of course part of that is performed by our Lord and the HS. Thus in this manner u can see that our Lord and HS are in no more way apart from GOD the father since they are perfect where as the saint are according to their spirituality.
I hope this is not confusing.
another example is if u make something lets say u make a crown and a sword all in Gold. now each is make of gold each have a diffrent purpose yet the are the same and bove all they each glorify one that that is the Gold. so it is with the trinity. the father is greater but doesnt he is indiffrent from the the son or HS neither does it mean that the son or HS are independent. the sword or crown dont exist with out the gold te metal. they of course are all pure. the saint if u would like have transformed themselves to huge amounts of Gold in thier formation but i guess not all
i hope this helps lol :P
With Mary Magdalene I believe or dioceses Bishop also said something along the lines of Father Tradro Malaty also I believe he said that it was also a severe rebuke from the lord for doubting after having had seen him before and then doubting her self and her experience at the words of the apostles.
Finally
Let us not be weak in confessing our limitation if one feels himself lacking then only solution is more prayer fasting and if he fails in this then simply attend more masses and communion and God willing the loads of wisdom and grace will pour through but we as Christs servants solders in his army should not for a moment spend any longer then our necessary In confessing our weakness in understanding that who has made things to come of which we here cannot behold of but rather all we can do in humility confess the truth set by men of God and run for our salvation.
For I realise honestly………………. the energy I had spent in trying to understand in perfection these matters of theology or simply matters with faith and chastity……if i had only spent it in more valuable currency that would for sure have bought me more pennies in heaven then in due time such weaknesses in understanding would be perfected by the grace of God. As for the Muslim brothers and answering anyone we should not take upon our selves as the cause of their salvation simply speak the words u know that true the rest about which they bring doubt leave to sort out
God bless.
hi everyone,
as far as i know and believe is that 1. when it says they are equal it means that nothing is apart from each other they represent each other and everything that is done is not independent in any way what so ever therefore there is no question of independency in personality or anything of that sort.
Now u may say but ….. Why did He says that to reconfirm while still that the trinity are equal the God head is the father. That’s It stop right there.
It is like the world has been made the head of a family is meant to be the father but that doesn’t mean that the wife doesn’t make decisions or has her own will or personality or what ever i.e. they are u unit together but in a Christian family it is set out that the father is the head kalas full stop.
I am sorry, but I find the need to say there is no Godhead... In the morning prayer (of the Agbeya) we pray:
"One is God the Father of everyone. One is His Son, Jesus Christ, the Word, who took flesh and died, and rose from the dead on the third day, and raised us with him. One is the Holy Spirit, one in His Hypostasis, proceeding from the Father, teaching us to worship the Holy Trinity in one divinity and one essence."
One divinity and one essence (in another version it unequivocally says one Godhead). To say the Father was the Godhead would imply that the other two Hypostasis, though divine, are somewhat less divine than the Father. No, just because the Father is the Origin does not mean he is greater. Remember, without the Son and the Holy Spirit there would be no Father (theoretically speaking). Each hypostasis is coexistent with the other before all ages, and though one may be a sword (as karas7 has said), no one is the "head" (a crown). You rather might say one is a gold triangle, the other a square, the other a circle. I have only used different shapes to portray the fact that each hypostasis serves a different purpose, yet they are all the same size.
Iqbal, please correct me if I have said anything incorrect...
Thank you, Please pray for me...
we can see this as the father being the sun and the HS the heat and our Lord Jesus Christ as the Light.YET they both come from one source. the source is made of the two components without it it doesnt exist while without the sun (the collective solar energy or body) the other two dont exist.
please correct me if i am wrong
pray for me