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Saint Mary Matthew 1:24-25

PaulhPaulh
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Matthew 1:24-25 (Taken from the NKJV)

24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

I came upon this verse and had some problems digesting it.  Would anybody be kind enough to explain it to me, with the most emphasis on verse 25?

Paul

Comments

  • jydeaconjydeacon
    This is very interesting, i have read Matthew many times but never noticed this verse before. i would love to hear what others have to say about this because i am as taken aback as you are.
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    This is interesting.  I don't think I've ever noticed this until now.  Thank you for pointing it out.  Here's my poor attempt at an interpretation.  Joseph, being Mary's husband, was permitted to have relations with her if he so wished.  I think that, while he was certainly allowed to 'know' Mary in a sexual sense, he didn't.  He knew very well the Child born of Mary was God incarnate, and so, he probably felt it would have been 'inappropriate' (although I don't want to give the impression that sex in marriage is a bad thing) to do so.  The Church has always testified to the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Theotokos, which helps bolster this notion.  Further evidence that Christ did not have any brothers can be found when He is crucified on the cross.  Jewish custom dictates that one of His brothers was to take care of His mother after His death.  The fact that He places John in charge of caring for His mother shows that Joseph and Mary did not have any other children after Christ.
  • Christ4LifeChrist4Life
    There was actually a long thread about this from G.J.I (old member) a long, long time ago. I believe that the word "till" in the Hebrew language did not mean that he did know her after she gave birth, but it meant something else. However, I unfortunately forgot what it meant. Maybe someone can find the old thread or tell us what it means.
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Here is the thread I think you are talking about.
  • mmatt95mmatt95

    24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

    the word "till" doesnt necessarily mean that Joseph did knew her AFTER she brought forth her firstborn Son. It simply means that he did not knew her BEFORE she gave birth.

    The same goes for the phrase "firstborn Son". Does it mean that she had to have more than one son for Jesus to be the firstborn? No, it simply means that Christ was her firstborn!

    I'm sure if we go back to the original Greek it'll turn out that the word "till" has a whole lot of meanings, anyhow, I think in the thread that kefas referred to, more than enough prove has been given that St Mary indeed was the ever-virgin, both from the church tradition (hymns and the psalmody etc) and the writings of the church fathers.
  • Unknown
    This is a verse very commonly used by heretics to discredit the notion of the Most Holy Theotokos' ever-virginity.

    St. Matthew 1:25
    "And was not knowing her until (kai ouk eginwsken authn ewV) she brought forth her Son, the firstborn; and he called His name Jesus."

    Note here how it is in the imperfect tense (was not knowing), rather than the perfect.

    St. John Chrysostomos explains:

    "He uses herein the word 'until,' not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did come to know her, but in order that thou mayest learn that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched. But on what account did he say the word 'until'? Because it is usual in Scripture oftimes to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times....When discoursing also of God, Scripture says, 'From the age until the age Thou art [Ps. 89:21],' not as fixing limits in this case....So then here likewise, it uses the word 'until,' to make certain what was before the birth; but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference."
    Homily 5, Commentary on St. Matthew the Evangelist

    Blessed Theophylact gives a similar explanation:

    "And was not knowing her until she brought forth. That is, he never came together with her at all. "Until" here does not mean that before the birth he did not know her and afterwards he did, but that he absolutely never knew her. Scripture employs this expression. For example, the raven "returned not unto the ark until the water had dried off from the earth" (Genesis 8:7). But neither did it return after the water had dried off. Again, "I am with you all the days until the completion of the age" (St. Matthew 28:20) So after the end He will no longer be with the saints? But how can that be? For at that time more than ever will He be with them. So must you understand here "until she brought forth" to mean, neiither before the birth nor after the birth did he know her. How could he have touched the Holy Virgin having once understood the ineffable birth giving?"
    The Explanation by Blessed Theophylact of The Holy Gospel According To St. Matthew p.22

    St. John Maximovitch likewise states:

    "But the word "until" does not signify that Mary remained a virgin only until a certain time. The word "until" and words similar to if often signify eternity. In the Sacred Scripture it is said of Christ: In His days shall righteousness dawn forth an abundance of peace, until the moon be taken away (Ps. 71:7), but this does not mean that when there shall no longer be a moon at the end of the world, God's righteousness shall no longer be; precisely then, rather, will it triumph. And what does it mean when it says: For it is necessary for Him to reign, until He should put all the enemies under His feet? (1 Cor. 15:25). Is the Lord then to reign only for the time until His enemies shall be under His feet?! And David, in the fourth Psalm of the Ascents says: As the eyes of the handmaid look unto the hands of her mistress, so do our eyes look unto the Lord our God, until He take pity on us (Ps. 122:2). Thus, the Prophet will have his eyes toward the Lord until he obtains mercy, but having obtained it he will direct them to the earth? (Blessed Jerome, "On the Ever-Virginity of Blessed Mary.")"
    The Orthodox Veneration of Mary, The Birthgiver of God p.32

    Many other such quotes can be found among the writings of the Saints.

    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5801.msg77732#msg77732 date=1191260990]
    Joseph, being Mary's husband, was permitted to have relations with her if he so wished.  I think that, while he was certainly allowed to 'know' Mary in a sexual sense, he didn't.  He knew very well the Child born of Mary was God incarnate, and so, he probably felt it would have been 'inappropriate' (although I don't want to give the impression that sex in marriage is a bad thing) to do so.


    While he was technically permitted to 'know' Her according to the law, being Her husband, the fact that he did not was not merely down to his feeling it would have been 'inappropriate.'

    From Her birth, the Blessed Theotokos was dedicated to a life of virginity. Such was the promise of Ss. Joachim and Anna as they pleaded with God to grant them a child in spite of their barrenness. From early childhood, the Theotokos lived among other virgins in the Temple in Jerusalem. Only when She came of age was it considered inappropriate for Her to remain there and for this reason, by a miracle, the high priest chose for Her a husband - but only as a provider and protector - a 80 year old widower: St. Joseph.

    So even prior to the Announciation, a physical relationship between St. Joseph and the Theotokos was never considered.  
  • mmatt95mmatt95

    "He uses herein the word 'until,' not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did come to know her, but in order that thou mayest learn that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched. But on what account did he say the word 'until'? Because it is usual in Scripture oftimes to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times....When discoursing also of God, Scripture says, 'From the age until the age Thou art [Ps. 89:21],' not as fixing limits in this case....So then here likewise, it uses the word 'until,' to make certain what was before the birth; but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference." Homily 5, Commentary on St. Matthew the Evangelist

    Thank you Orthodox11,
    that was exactly what we needed!!!
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    I knew my word choice was 'lacking'.  :D

    Thanks for the clarifying posts.  While I know Church Tradition typically places the age of Joseph as being much older than Mary, I know there are people who will argue that Joseph was younger than that (perhaps around 40 or so).  Even at that age though, I suspect that this still would not have been an issue, especially considering Mary's dedication to remain a virgin after having been dedicated, by her parents, to God.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5801.msg77744#msg77744 date=1191265678]
    I know there are people who will argue that Joseph was younger than that (perhaps around 40 or so). 

    That's interesting. I've never seen this from any Orthodox sources. Or were you referring to heterodox opinions?
  • SafaaSafaa
    The Holy Apostolic Church believes in the ever- virginity of St. Mary and one of her title is “ The Virgin “. On the other hand the Protestants dose not hold that dogma and propagates that she married after the Holy conception.
    In the Book of Ezekiel, The East Gate is a prophecy about the perpetual virginity of the theotokos, as it states “Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.” Ezekiel 44:1,2
    About the verse that you mentioned of Holy Book of Matthew, the word “till”, linguistically has two meaning, one of them by the meaning of continuity, forever, till the end. The question now, does the Holy Bible uses this word in other places?. I will quote two verses:
    2nd Samuel 6: 23
    “ Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child till the day of her death’. This of course dose not mean that Michal had children after she die!!!! 
    The Book of Psalms 110 :1
    The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. This again dose not mean that the Lord will cease sitting at the right hand of the Lord after his enemy was brought under his feet!!
    This is a good example that the Holy Bible should be read through the tradition of the Apostolic Church.


  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    [quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5801.msg77745#msg77745 date=1191266023]
    That's interesting. I've never seen this from any Orthodox sources. Or were you referring to heterodox opinions?


    I believe it is a heterodox opinion, although I don't think it would be a major source of conflict if one were to believe it either.  I know tradition states that Joseph was an old man, and I guess it depends on how one is going to define 'marriage'.  Granted, culturally at the time, it was acceptable for older men to have young brides, although I doubt that a man of 80 would 'marry' a girl who was in her teens in the sense that we define marriage today.  The fact that the Scripture does speak about 'marriage' would give some credence to the notion that Joseph was around 40, but then, it is speculation at best.  Could you tell me what the earliest reference to Joseph being about 80 years old is?  I would appreciate it.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5801.msg77757#msg77757 date=1191272393]
    Granted, culturally at the time, it was acceptable for older men to have young brides, although I doubt that a man of 80 would 'marry' a girl who was in her teens in the sense that we define marriage today. 


    This is true. But then the blessed Virgin's relationship with St. Joseph the Righteous was certainly not that of a normal marriage, which is why he is always referred to as the betrothed rather than husband.

    In most of the accounts I've read of the highpriest chosing St. Joseph for the Theotokos, his old age is always mentioned as a positive.


    Could you tell me what the earliest reference to Joseph being about 80 years old is?  I would appreciate it.

    I'll do some more digging later, but according to St. Epiphanios of Cyprus (+403), St. Joseph lived to 110 years old. He is said to have died just before Christ's ministry. 110-30=80  ;)
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Thank you kindly.  Yes, I knew that St. Joseph had died before Christ started His ministry, I just didn't think he had lived that long.  I had thought that he may have lived up to 70 or 80, which is why an age of 40-50 could make sense.  Thank you again for the information.
  • Unknown
    I just skimmed through the Protoevangelion of James (2nd Century). I couldn't see any specific age mentioned (it might be, but I didn't notice), but chapter 9 says the following:

    1 And Joseph cast down his adze and ran to meet them, and when they were gathered together they went to the high priest and took their rods with them. And he took the rods of them all and went into the temple and prayed. And when he had finished the prayer he took the rods and went forth and gave them back to them: and there was no sign upon them. But Joseph received the last rod: and 1o, a dove came forth of the rod and flew upon the bead of Joseph. And the priest said unto Joseph: Unto thee hath it fallen to take the virgin of the Lord and keep her for thyself. 2 And Joseph refused, saying: I have sons, and I am an old man, but she is a girl: lest I became a laughing-stock to the children of Israel. And the priest said unto Joseph: Year the Lord thy God, and remember what things God did unto Dathan and Abiram and Korah, how the earth clave and they were swallowed up because of their gainsaying. And now fear thou, Joseph, lest it be so in thine house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her to keep her for himself. And Joseph said unto Mary: Lo, I have received thee out of the temple of the Lord: and now do I leave thee in my house, and I go away to build my buildings and I will come again unto thee. The Lord shall watch over thee.

  • PaulhPaulh
    thanks guys ;)
  • SafaaSafaa
    This Q & A from Southern Diocese of the United St

    "And did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son" (Mt 1:25).

    St. Jerome tells us that the words know and till in the language of Holy Scripture are capable of a double meaning. The phrase "knowing her" in the Holy Bible may refer to knowing one intimately or as the knowledge of understanding, as, for instance, "The Boy Jesus lingered behind in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother did not know it" (Luke 2:43).

    The word "till" often denotes by its use, a fixed time, frequently time without limitation, as when God by the mouth of the prophet says to certain persons, "Even to old age I am He." Will He cease to be God when they have grown old? And the Savior in the Holy Gospel tells the Apostles, "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." Will the Lord then after the end of the world come to forsake His disciples, and at the very time when seated on twelve thrones they are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel will they be bereft of the company of their Lord?

    Again Paul the Apostle writing to the Corinthians says, "Christ the first-fruits, afterward they that are Christ's, at his coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet" (1 Cor 15:23-25). Granted that the passage relates to our Lord's human nature, we do not deny that the words are spoken of Him who endured the Holy Cross and is commanded to sit afterwards at the right hand of the Father. What does he mean then by saying, "For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under his feet"? Is the Lord to reign only until His enemies begin to be under His feet, and once they are under His feet will He cease to reign? Of course not, for He will reign forever.

    Another example found in the Holy Book of Acts "But when the time of the promise drew near which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt till another king arose who did not know Joseph" (Acts 7:17-18). We see again in this verse the usage of the two words "till' and "know". Did the people stop multiplying after this new king came? Of course not for we know that they kept multiplying even after the king gave orders to the midwives to kill all the male newborns. (Exodus 1)

    The Holy Scripture is full of verses that use the word "till" as a continuing act or status. The Holy Gospel of St. Matthew 22:44 states, 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.'

    In the Holy Book of Acts 8:40 Philip was found at Azotus and passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea.

    "Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine" (1 Timothy 4:12-13).

    Suggested reading includes an article written by St Jerome, The Perpetual Virginity of St. Mary: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-06/Npnf2-06-08.htm#P5991_1770937.




  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    This is an excerpt taken from an apocryphal text called The History of Joseph the Carpenter  (c. 400 AD) verse 14.  I'm not sure what the Church's view on this text is, but it does help give us some insight into the age of Joseph when he took the Blessed Theotokos into his house:

    It came to pass thereafter, when he returned to his own house in the city of Nazareth, that he was seized by disease, and had to keep his bed. And it was at this time that he died, according to the destiny of all mankind. For this disease was very heavy upon him, and he had never been ill, as he now was, from the day of his birth. And thus assuredly it pleased Christ to order the destiny of righteous Joseph. He lived forty years unmarried; thereafter his wife remained under his care forty-nine years, and then died. And a year after her death, my mother, the blessed Mary, was entrusted to him by the priests, that he should keep her until the time of her marriage. She spent two years in his house; and in the third year of her stay with Joseph, in the fifteenth year of her age, she brought me forth on earth by a mystery which no creature can penetrate or understand, except myself, and my Father and the Holy Spirit, constituting one essence with myself.

    So based on this narrative, St. Joseph was 90 when St. Mary came to live with him and we find out that at the end of his life, he was 111 years old.
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    Is this narrative supposed to be one of Christ?
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    According to the narrative, it is a story that Christ told His apostles one time when they were alone.  So the narrative is from Christ's perspective.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Paulh link=topic=5801.msg77729#msg77729 date=1191251921]
    Matthew 1:24-25 (Taken from the NKJV)

    24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

    I came upon this verse and had some problems digesting it.  Would anybody be kind enough to explain it to me, with the most emphasis on verse 25?

    Paul

    I asked abouna the SAME question more than 10 years ago.

    Here's what he said:

    "The word 'till' is not translated as "untill" - it should be interpreted as "hata" (in arabic) - which can be translated as "till", but more accurately as "even" - its emphatically suggesting that he didn't know her EVEN after she brought fort her first born Son."

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