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Modernizing Hymns
Hey guys i want to get your opinions on this subject: there is a thread going on on coptichymns.net that i am participating in here is the link http://www.coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-8126-p-62239.html#62239 my view is stated on this thread so i don't feel i need to repeat myself but i would like to know what you guys think of it?
Comments
God Bless
Tony
-Having non-egyptians adapt to our culture and language (which is obiously not necessary)
-Having future generations copts (abroad) adapt to western music taste, which is not necessarily bad music, just different.
The first point obviously is non-sense, that's why nowadays we have the British Orthodox CHurch and the French ORthodox church who pray with their own suitable rites in their own language, and that's how the Orthodox church has always functioned.
The second point I disagree with. When I look practicaly at young copts all around the world I find that a great number identifies themselves with the coptic rites and music as it is now. We just had a European Youth Meeting and there we could sing in all unity the coptic hymns of the liturgy, and in the midnight praise it was a coctail of different languages. It was wonderfull to see how the second, third and sometimes fourth generation of coptic youth were all unified in this one musical form of worship. The only thing necessary is to translate the hymns to the native language, and when people prefer so, to chant in the nativa language (I for one love the sound of coptic hymns in English, French and Italian!!!)
I see absolutely no need for us in the diaspora to adapt our music in 50 years from now. If that's the case, then why in the world are we teaching our sunday school children to read coptic and to chant coptic hymns???
-matt-
I agree with all of you. These hymns are our culture that we should be proud of and not want to change. The were put ages ago and some have been for enen longer than a 1000 years. If we got rid of them then we would be losing a big part of us. If we started to get rid of simple stuff like our hymns from the church then maybe we might lose other more serious stuff like litrugies and faith issues. If people abroad joined our church, we don't need to change the hymns. Instead we can have bits of the liturgy in their language which happens every where abroad. Also the future generations should learn to appreciate our hymns and learn them.
Or who will preserve our heritage?
kirolosmichael
I absolutely agree. And you know what? It is not us who can preserve the hymns. It is the Holy Spirit. He only can preserve them, and let's not be lazy again, as the cantors of the olden days who wasted and lost us some great hymns, the number of which quoted by some being hundreds. Let's just be vigilant, and proactive, and not losers.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
As was pointed out in the thread, there are two mixed subjects.
-Having non-egyptians adapt to our culture and language (which is obiously not necessary)
-Having future generations copts (abroad) adapt to western music taste, which is not necessarily bad music, just different.
The first point obviously is non-sense, that's why nowadays we have the British Orthodox CHurch and the French ORthodox church who pray with their own suitable rites in their own language, and that's how the Orthodox church has always functioned.
The second point I disagree with. When I look practicaly at young copts all around the world I find that a great number identifies themselves with the coptic rites and music as it is now. We just had a European Youth Meeting and there we could sing in all unity the coptic hymns of the liturgy, and in the midnight praise it was a coctail of different languages. It was wonderfull to see how the second, third and sometimes fourth generation of coptic youth were all unified in this one musical form of worship. The only thing necessary is to translate the hymns to the native language, and when people prefer so, to chant in the nativa language (I for one love the sound of coptic hymns in English, French and Italian!!!)
I see absolutely no need for us in the diaspora to adapt our music in 50 years from now. If that's the case, then why in the world are we teaching our sunday school children to read coptic and to chant coptic hymns???
-matt-
sorry but i have to disagree with you. I am not saying that i am for changing any hymns. they should stay the way they are. but we are not only egyptains. In the church in washington Dc correct me if i am wrong, it has a diverse amount of people, not everyone is egyptain. people who have converted and those who have not. Not everyone is egyptain. and we are changing so that they can adapt to our religion just by adding english. the english language is an adaptation because we have non arabic speaking members, just like in germany the german language is an adaptation, and they are still COPTIC orthodox, not german orthodox, which brings me to my second point.
french orthodox and british orthodox are not OO churches, so we do not have the same belief UNLESS you mean COPTIC orthodox IN france and Britain. In wich case it is another ecample of adaptation to pray the liturgy in french. What is suggested here is that the hymns were changed for aiding people to adapt to the culture, listen to all the tracks, some of them you can change like our God is an awesome God, it is not a hymns, and epouro isnt a major change, i think what is bothering everyone is the acoustic guitar lol. which i dont see a huge problem with, i just wouldnt like it if it was used during a service but just for recording is fine. i think it is a good way to relax and praise God at the same time and as well its great for when you go on retreats and u have bonfires, its nice to sing those hymns to really get u into the mood and it feels good.
Concerning the point that not everybody is Egyptian in church, that is absolutely true. But that should not stay like that forever. Fact is that it's hard for western people to chant the quarter tones that are in our hymns. So eventually, for their own sake and benefit it'll be necessary to make a new "daughter church", with the OO faith, but with rites and hymns that are suitable for their own culture.
That doesnt mean that non-egyptians are not welcome in our church, but we will not change our hymns because non-egyptians want to join. Those who want to join us despite our preserving of heritage and rite are more than welcome. But I don't see the necessity of adapting OUR rites and hymns, when we are perfectly fine with them. It's our heritage, and it should be preserved.
Can you imagine for instance that our church would cut down on the Great Friday Pascha because western people are not used to such long services?? Like JYdeacon pointed out, these churches are in fact part of the OO family. They are the PERFECT example of how the church can accept new cultures, by handing over the faith, but have them use their own rites that are suitable. In that case, there's no need for OUR COPTIC church to change it's hymns. I have absolutely no problem with the acoustic guitar, in fact I love to play instrument while chanting hymns - just not during liturgical services, and this has its own reasons.
A minor problem with that guitar is that it cannot play quarter tones, which makes the hymn epouro not as delicate as the original tune: try playing it on a 3oud or violin, or on a oriental keyboard, and you can hear the difference instantly.
Also, I more or the less disagree with the terms "good way to relax and getting into the mood and feeling good", I don't think the aim of the hymns is to relax and feel good. I think the aim is to grow spiritually. That means we have to put an effort in learning and understanding them (this was pointed out before on cmn), and concentrate while praying these hymns.
I hope I wasn't harsh in any way, this is simply my opinion.
God bless the Coptic Church, and may He preserve our heritage for ages to come!!!
Ok actually about this an epideacon in my churhc said and argued that during Great Friday we do not sin for example Wa Habibi and especially Wa Habibi what do you guys think before i give my opinion which probably you don't care about I want to hear you say " I agree with that deacon" Or "I don not agree" and tell me somthing to back up what you say so I'm convinced Thank you all.
saying a song doesn't change much. we used to say it and say another nice song, ya lehazal-fedaa el-'azem....
but some just prefer not to. but it's not a problem to do so.
God Bless
Tony
Well first of all, this hymn is not part of our rites or (taqs). So therefore it should not interfere with our services. Also, HG bishop Serapion banned its use. there is absolutely NO song that is fitting to be made part of the actual Good Friday service. If you do plan to sing a song for the people, it should be at the beginning or end of Abouna's preach. Also it is primarily a protestaunt song, not orthodox. And just because i like a song, doesnt give me the right to insert it anywhere during an actual service. Forgive me if i sound harsh but it would be a mistake to say this during an actual service.
God Bless
Tony
ur fully rit. actually that's when we said the song, before the priest's sermon.....also i don't think there is any thing unorthodox with the song:
Oh Beloved
1-Oh beloved, oh beloved,
Nailed unto the cross for me.
O what sin hast Thou committed,
Thou who calls all to be.
Oh beloved, wish that I could,
Spend the rest of life with Thee.
Worshipping Thine holy passion,
crucifying the flesh for Thee.
2-Daughter of Zion behold Me,
Stricken and smitten for Thee.
Friend and kin, me have forsaken,
There is none to comfort me.
All alone I'll tread the winepress,
All alone I'll drink the cup.
Shedding my blood for Thee to ransom,
And my flesh for Thee to sup.
3- I was bound, and I was smitten,
And they did spit in my face.
I was stripped, and I was scourged,
I was condemned in your place.
Your sins became my crown of thorns,
Oh that you would understand.
Every time you sin a new,
It's one more nail in my hand.
4- Like a lamb brought to the slaughter,
Like a dumb sheep to be sheered.
King, Creator, Lord, and Master,
By His creatures, mocked and jeered.
Despised, rejected, with grief acquainted,
And of men was not esteemed.
Bruised and wounded, sore afflicted, yet,
With His stripes we were healed.
5- Lord create in us a fountain,
That with tears will ever flow.
And a heart contrite and broken,
And the spirit within renew.
Oh that we could shed the tears,
Over Thy feet pierced and bruised.
Oh that we always remember,
For our sins Thou wert abused.
God Bless,
A humble servant
On the topic of "modernizing Hymns" I have myself debated about it. And by modernizing I look at it as chanting the hymns in English instead of Coptic. If the church were to start chanting the hymns in English to attract the English speakers I believe it would give more meaning and value to the hymns, when one stands there and sings "Epouro" it could sound beautiful but 95% of the congregation does not know what they are saying and that takes the purpose away from singing to God. Yet on the other hand if we were to change from Coptic to English many traditional Copts would be furiated, it has been our way of life and a part of our culture, it is what identifies us from the other churches. The reason the Coptic church is unwavering and has lasted from the beginning is that it sticks to its tradition and does not conform to society. The best thing to do is to reach a compromise somewhere in the middle.
what does the word hymn mean:
1 a : a song of praise to God b : a metrical composition adapted for singing in a religious service
what does song mean:
1 : the act or art of singing
2 : poetical composition
3 a : a short musical composition of words and music b : a collection of such compositions
researches have been made and proved that any tune set on a song of a language, trying to put that tune on another will lose the meaning of the tune.
actually someone asked HH in one of his meetings to set a rule to change the hymns to be set in arabic...instead of coptic ya3ny. he responded and said, first, how can u take a musical language like coptic and put it's tune on another like arabic.
second, he doesn't have the power to do that. our church hymns as long as they are witnessed for are the churchs'. no one have the power to change or to end them.
this is only from the linsting picture. am not going to get into how it been this way for many and many yrs.
for some reason u guys just want to make things to technical.....coptic is a language.....it is in fact translated into other languages very easly as just another language. so it's not like we don't know what we're saying like other religions.....no we do no what we're saying but the feeeling u get from listing to a hymn that is very spiritual is better thatn really saying the exact meaning.
i love the coptic hymns and i love singing it i dentify with the fact that it has its own unique code of sprituality and rite that needs to be preserved perhaps that the reason why i love it but i cant see why people cant see that it is diffcult to sing something u doint understand the meaning of. it is frustrating and annoying and a very good reason to cahse people away from worship. if it is in english say the midnight praises then u actually think learn and understand and grow but when u just sing without understanding its like for me its like idol worship if i were to be born in a idol worshpping faimly and then go ahead and do as my father shows me. what???(example be born in an indian hindu family) of course peopel are goan run away
i guess the balance is waht needs to be found but if there is a large number of congregation in english then most of the things should be sung in english if it is coptic then coptic but when it comes to learing i think it is sad to put them to go through and try and sing coptic whenthey doint understand there the coptic preists and deacons should be accomdating to sing in english to encourage others after all like i said previosly if u mind and heart are somewhere else thenthe words coming out are gona have that too if u sing in english and feel bad carp or as if u doint wanna sing it then well thats waht u gona get but if u persist in prayer while singning and think of God it doesnt matter wether it is english coptic frnch fijian waht ever am i wrong?
hi everyone
i love the coptic hymns and i love singing it i dentify with the fact that it has its own unique code of sprituality and rite that needs to be preserved perhaps that the reason why i love it but i cant see why people cant see that it is diffcult to sing something u doint understand the meaning of. it is frustrating and annoying and a very good reason to cahse people away from worship. if it is in english say the midnight praises then u actually think learn and understand and grow but when u just sing without understanding its like for me its like idol worship if i were to be born in a idol worshpping faimly and then go ahead and do as my father shows me. what???(example be born in an indian hindu family) of course peopel are goan run away
i guess the balance is waht needs to be found but if there is a large number of congregation in english then most of the things should be sung in english if it is coptic then coptic but when it comes to learing i think it is sad to put them to go through and try and sing coptic whenthey doint understand there the coptic preists and deacons should be accomdating to sing in english to encourage others after all like i said previosly if u mind and heart are somewhere else thenthe words coming out are gona have that too if u sing in english and feel bad carp or as if u doint wanna sing it then well thats waht u gona get but if u persist in prayer while singning and think of God it doesnt matter wether it is english coptic frnch fijian waht ever am i wrong?
no ur not wrong.....but when we say hymns we consider the ones that are long and not easy to put it's tune into english. tasbeha fast hymns are great to say in english or in arabic. i wouldn't want to say it but it's normally done in englisha nd arabic. but that's for the fast hymns that have a very basic tune. butfor exmaple saying the lobsh in it's long tune or tentheno or tenoweh ensok in egnlish that is meaningless. becuase even if u try to put the long tune on the english, WORDS WONT MAKE SINCE.
do u get what am talkin about?!!!
same goes for the hymns of Holy Week. Dont get me wrong though, i really like this song and it can be very touching. But we must excercise proper discretion on when to say it. I hope i made some sense..
GB
Tony
-Adjusting the language (translating hymns OR chanting in the native langugae), which we probably all agree on, it should be done according to the needs of the congregation.
-Adjusting the rites and music to be suitable for non-Egyptians.
Can we please discuss this second point now. I will repeat my opinion briefly: I see no need for our hymns and rites to change in the actual COPTIC church. If there's a lot of converts from other cultures and they have a hard time adapting to our rites/hymns, they should have their own "daughter church", just like in France and Britain.
Mina, i am well aware of the lyrics in "Wa Habibi," but that was not the point. The point that i was trying to make is that, spiritual songs have no place in the service of our church. Our fathers have arranged the rites for us, which we should respect and follow for many reasons. The first would be because that every single thing we do/say has a meaning, a good example would be some of the hymns we say in church. The hymns and the tunes themselves have a meaning behind them, that are there for the people and to give them a specific feeling at a specific point. The ferahy tune is there because it is to show that we are in a joyous state and so on and so forth...
same goes for the hymns of Holy Week. Dont get me wrong though, i really like this song and it can be very touching. But we must excercise proper discretion on when to say it. I hope i made some sense..
GB
Tony
am not disagreeing...let me just say that, a spiritual song goes with a spiritual word.
HH Pope Shenouda 111 always says that you can use any music or taraneems, “ emphasizing that the words are according to the Orthodox dogma” , in Sunday school, general meetings or before Bible study. If any one would watch his Wednesday meeting you will listen to music on the 3ood and vast different taraneems. But the Divine Liturgy should be in the original formats with whatever language, but Coptic should not be eliminated.
And please, as matt said, do not be distracted with side issues!!
WHAT A SHAME AND A GREAT PITY FOR ME TO SEE COPTS (WHOSE LANGUAGE SHOULD BE COPTIC) TRYING TO MEDIATE FOR OTHER CONVERTS TO ADAPT IN OUR CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Isn't that sad really?
Ok, I will shortly tell you two examples in two more posts, but let me first say that I agree with Amoussa01 strongly here. No spiritual song, carol, or even "madeeha" should be said during the Coptic Mass. I am citing the words of a priest here, who was interested in the Rites of the Orthodox Church. After all, where do the doxologies go? Why can't we sing them the long tune, or the mo7ayer? Well, maybe, Arabic "maday7 (just forgot the English word)", and equally the English are a lot easier, and longer and they can fill up the time during which people partake of the Holy Body and Blood, isn't it?
Let me tell you the first example in the next post then:
he had a friend who was British white, and recently converted to Orthodox. During either Bright Saturday, or one of Koiak's nights he heard the hymn "tenen", and he never stopped talking about how lovely that hymn was: tune, and spirituality-wise.
The second example, is something I heard myself and mentioned it in another thread (to the extent that that thread ended after my post :))
Bshp Raphael used to attend that feast in the monastery and the secular Muslim friend of his asked fervently to go along with him, as he doesn't mind. Of course Bshp Raphael explained to him how he should behave in the church, and he asked him not to get offended that he would be asked to stand right at the entrance of the church, and no further. The secular Muslim agreed; being a respectable man, he just wanted to see how monks and Christians read and sing the Coptic language, to have a practical feel for what he was studying. By the way, the story was told by Bshp Raphael himself. Bshp Raphael gave a psalmody book in Coptic to his friend, and took excuse from him as he had to go up to the altar to pray. Bshp Raphael kept coming down to the bottom of the church every now and then to check on his friend after the service has already started. Guess what? Halfway through the midnight chants, Bshp Raphael noticed with the corner of his eyes that his friend put the psalmody book down, and was just staring at the altar and where the monks were praying. Then when Bshp Raphael went down to him, he asked him: "what happened? Did you get bored? Or just couldn't follow as we sing a bit too fast, being used to the chants": the secular Muslim friend replied saying "oh no, I have an overwhelming feeling inside that I am out of this world: I am fine this way, I don't need the book anymore; please give it to someone else who may need it, and I am ok".
That is all for now... God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Dear all (just a personal opinion)
WHAT A SHAME AND A GREAT PITY FOR ME TO SEE COPTS (WHOSE LANGUAGE SHOULD BE COPTIC) TRYING TO MEDIATE FOR OTHER CONVERTS TO ADAPT IN OUR CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Isn't that sad really?
Ok, I will shortly tell you two examples in two more posts, but let me first say that I agree with Amoussa01 strongly here. No spiritual song, carol, or even "madeeha" should be said during the Coptic Mass. I am citing the words of a priest here, who was interested in the Rites of the Orthodox Church. After all, where do the doxologies go? Why can't we sing them the long tune, or the mo7ayer? Well, maybe, Arabic "maday7 (just forgot the English word)", and equally the English are a lot easier, and longer and they can fill up the time during which people partake of the Holy Body and Blood, isn't it?
Let me tell you the first example in the next post then:
sorry to interrupt but if you look at these hymns, tenen is one of my favorite hymns, but what use is it if we do not understand. i am not saying sing everything in english or in arabic, but if everything stays coptic then no one understands. its like reciting somehting in a language you do not understand. You do not know the meaning. How many people can honestly tell me the meaning of Taishori off the top of their heads. not many. but epouro a lot of people can tell you. Because it is a hymn that has been recited in all 3 languages many times. We have to acknowledge the fact that almost no one speaks the language anymore, i am in no manner saying throw the language out because i love the language. but i am saying that chanting the hymns in english every once in a while isnt going to send me to hell. People dont know the meaning to a lot of hymns because they don't hear it in english. What is sad is that the translation is right there in front of us and we are not using it. What is the point of translating the liturgy then? Why doesn't abouna pray it in all coptic... because the prayer to the congregation would be meaningless. I am implying that the congregation needs someone to chant the hymns in another language every once in a while.
GB
Tony