The Body and Blood

andrew8345

I know that our church does believe that during the liturgy the bread and wine are turned into Christ's body and blood. But my question is do we really believe that? People should then therefore be bowing before the altar at all times and with complete respect in fear. But as I see it many deacons are talking and not everyone is attentive. And what does the church say to justify that it really is indeed the body and blood of Christ.

Holmes

[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

Regarding justification as to the veracity that the bread and wine do in fact become the Body and Blood of Christ see this thread which references two other threads.

As for whether we (individually) believe it to be true, the answer is, we should.  I personally do.  You are absolutely right when you say that:

People should then therefore be bowing before the altar at all times and with complete respect in fear.

As for how we can remedy the problem, the only way I see is that we keep explaining to our youth in Sunday School the reality of the Body and the Blood.  We need to hammer into their minds how truly Holy this sacrament is, and how we should not take it lightly.  The older deacons should keep an eye out on the younger ones and help them stay focused.  It is our responsibility to set the example for others to follow.

kokiie

Check out this video, watch it till the end!! It's worth it :D

gregorytheSinner

Well we basically all, believe that the bread and wine are transformed into the real Body and Blood of Christ.  I remember once hearing form my aunt  a story about a priest who started to doubt whether anything happend on the altar or not.  The next time he prayed Mass, as he was breaking the Bread into the thirteen peices all he saw in front of him was a child being ripped apart with each limb being pulled off.  Needless to say of course he didn't have that doubting problem again. The main problem as i see it, specially amongst the youth, is the fact taht our superficial minds can not fully comprehend the magnitude of the miracle that happens EVERY SUNDAY.  The fact that it is repeated so often and parents bring their children with them every sunday causes them to dare i say it not value it as much. 
A while ago we had a blessed priest who is now reposed, i remember him once telling the people that they SHOULDNT take communion every week because repeating it every week can turn into a habit without much spiritual benefit.

So basically the best solution is what Κηφᾶς  said Sunday School teachers should try to hammer down the reality of the Body and Blood of Christ.

mmatt95

I wanted to tell a story about the "reallness" of community. It comes in the film of "el raheb el saher" (the watchfull monk?, he was known for sleeping just 2 or 3 hours every day).

Once there was a mother who's son was sick. They were Jehova's Witness, but she was adviced by some people to let the boy have communion at the orthodox church in order to be cured from his sickness.
She took her son and abouna gave him communion, but abouna's eyes were opened to the truth, so he took the boy and tried keeping him close to him while asking the mother: "is this boy baptized?" She said that they were Jehova's and only took communion so that the boy may be cured.
Abouna started saying that he MUST be baptized the same day, or else something bad may happen to him. The mother refused, and abouna kept trying to explain that this is the Body and Blood of the Lord and that it's not something to be taken lightly. "He must be baptized" abouna kept repeating, or else something bad may happen.

In the end the mother didn't listen, she was afraid that her husband may find out that she baptized the boy in secret. Even the deacon who was standing next to abouna was saying "what's the big deal, let them do whatever they want".

El mohem, a short time thereafter the woman came crying to abouna, holding her dead son in her arms. The story tells that his mouth and throat were red from burns :o

I was shocked the first time I heard the story, and then I immediatly remembered the verse from St Paul:

First Korinthians 11:28-30

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

When you see this part in the movie, it's way more powerfull then just reading the story. It's a great movie  :). Anyhow, this story is a real eye-opener I thought!!!

Stavro

In the end the mother didn't listen, she was afraid that her husband may find out that she baptized the boy in secret. Even the deacon who was standing next to abouna was saying "what's the big deal, let them do whatever they want".

El mohem, a short time thereafter the woman came crying to abouna, holding her dead son in her arms. The story tells that his mouth and throat were red from burns

So Abona gave communion to a Jehova Witness, knowing that they are Jehova Witness, just to get rid of a persistent mother?

If so, maybe the priest, together with his ignorant deacon who recommended such action, is more worthy to such a punishment.

The stories about the different revelation concerning the Eucharist should not be used to conclude any dogma. The Faith is delivered once and for all and such miracles are only for unbelievers but they do not establish a dogma. It is enough that the Lord said that this is His Body and that this is His Blood.

Stavro

But as I see it many deacons are talking and not everyone is attentive.

True, and sad. Not to generalize, as I am familiar only with 12 -13 local churches, but there is a culture of disrespect and chaos in the liturgies in many of the churches in North America. The deaconship has been reduced to a mere compliment to a mother who wants to see her little 5 - year old wearing a tonia "3ashan tefra7" and get rid of him in the process by letting the older deacons babysit the kid. In a more refined excuse deaconship and ordinations are used as means to keep the children in the Church. It is equivalent to ordaining priests "3ashan omahathum tefra7" or to keep them out of trouble from the street.

Deaconship was once a very respected rank that went beyond hymns memorization to holding an office of teaching as evident from St. Steven's powerful speech in the book of Acts and by the lives of deacons such as Athanasius, Cyril, Timothy and Dioscoros, has now been reduced to hymns memorization and babysitting.

True deacons are being distracted by the lack of respect given by the laity to the liturgy as a whole, and there could be no worse representation of our great Church to the Western culture than to come and observe the chaos in some churches.

Destroy the existing careless attitude and the sense of entitlement by kids and adults alike and replace the existing culture by one of true responsibility. We need to understand that the Church is not a place for worldly fun, but the only true joy is one derived from worship in fear and trembling. If some people do not get it, cut them out until you have a culture that promotes spiritual discipline rather than confusion. 

mmatt95

So Abona gave communion to a Jehova Witness, knowing that they are Jehova Witness, just to get rid of a persistent mother?

You missed the whole point of the story. The woman went to give her son communion, and this abouna did not know. He then asked whether the boy was baptized or not, and when it turned out he's not baptized he insisted that he MUST be baptized the same day or else he might be harmed by it. It shows the gravity of taking communion unworthily.

And you are right that exceptional stories like these shouldnt be the base of our faith, but sometimes God permits these thing to happen in order to wake up people who may take communion without truly understanding it's value and mystery. This is also what St Paul was talking about!

kokiie

LOL did anyone watch the video?

Holmes

[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

[quote author=Hizz_chiilld link=topic=5810.msg77920#msg77920 date=1191511056]
LOL did anyone watch the video?


I have seen this video before.  While it may have been well intended, I think it goes overboard a bit.  Granted, it may work for some youth. 

kokiie

Why do you think it goes overboard?

Holmes

[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

I can't help but get the sense that the people who made the video were trying to 'guilt trip' us into the meaning behind the Eucharist.  Orthodoxy is not about guilt, although, as I was discussing with someone (i.e. Matt (i.e Hos Erof)), sometimes guilt can be a good thing.  I've, personally, never been a fan of it though.

Safaa

Andrew,

And what does the church say to justify that it really is indeed the body and blood of Christ.

Our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, Himeselfe,  said “ This is my Body....., This is my Blood..”

kokiie

The only reason we'd feel guilty is if we don't show the proper respect for the body of Christ, and I know the majority of the people I know, including myself, are guilty of such.

We literally believe everything in that video.. Theoretically. Many people don't realise that we believe these things on such a literal level.. which relates directly to this post. Even though peopleknow that this is the body of Chrsit, they don't treat it so. This video allows us limited people to visually comprehend the real-ness of it all.. That's why I love it :)

p

Obviously every would believe in what they do. I wouldn't imagine one person not knowing if they were even baptized in order to take of the Sacraments and not knowing one of the more important ones. I am pretty sure everyone (exception for the babies) would know that they are truly partaking of the Divine Mysteries (The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ). I mean, would you lend a car to someone you don't know. Of course not. Similar scenario applies here.

Maryann23

Communion is a 'Holy Mystery', its  not intended for our limited, human mind to fully understand GOD and His mysteries.

I also heard this story from a priest in Egypt (its pretty crazzzy):

There was a woman who's child was very sick (she was not Christian). But some of her Christian neighbours told her to take him to church and pray for him there. So she attended a mass, and wanted him to take communion. The priest didnt recognize her and asked her if she was Christian...she said no, so he didnt allow her to take communion. She then went to another church and gave her son communion. That night he died, and when the doctors were checking what had killed him...they found that a reaction occured between the conflicting blood types  :o

p

THAT IS AWESOME!!! Therefore communion was only made for Christians baptized in water and Spirit. Not for anyone who is not a Christian. That is an amazing example. Thanks Child of the Faith. This helps prove that Communion is the most important one as in if you take it but are not baptized, you could die. Also, it proves that it is the most important one for the CHRISTIANS if the CHRISTIANS referred the woman and the child to the priest for communion. That means it helps the Christians A LOT!!! "who's child was very sick"!!! Thank you so much Child of the Faith.