In Numbers chapter 31, God commands the Israelites to kill the Midanites. Its in fact to avenge them.
The Lord asks that they kill EVERYONE, and EVERYTHING, only leaving virgin girls.
My questions are as follows:
a) If you are going into war to kill a nation, then how would you know if a woman is a virgin or not?
b) Why is killing allowed here in cases of adultary and fornication, yet forbidden later on in the New Testament?
c) Vengence is wrong; isn't it? Why is the Lord encouraging vengence against the Midian People?
d) Moses tells them: whoever has killed anyone of the midians, should be purified? I don't understand, why? God told them to kill the Midians, and now they are impure for doing so?
e) Then he tells them :"Save for yourselves every girl that is a virgin" - isn't that like stealing? They aren't yours?? How can you keep a woman that is not yours??
Thanks
here are the Bible verses pertaining to this incident:
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."
3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.
7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
19 "All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood."
21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, "This is the requirement of the law that the LORD gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp."
Comments
a) If you are going into war to kill a nation, then how would you know if a woman is a virgin or not?
b) Why is killing allowed here in cases of adultary and fornication, yet forbidden later on in the New Testament?
c) Vengence is wrong; isn't it? Why is the Lord encouraging vengence against the Midian People?
Well
a) I think that they would ask each woman and believe her I guess. They also could have asked. Women could have bad reputation in the city and people will know her.
I can't really explain the next one proprly but here goes
b&c)I think that killing here is allowed as the jews needed to see toughness. People where in ealry humanity. When peoples consiences developed over time by experience it was time to introduce the unconditional-love in the new testemant as people will understand it.
Hope it helped a little but the rest i dont know
My questions are as follows:
a) If you are going into war to kill a nation, then how would you know if a woman is a virgin or not?
b) Why is killing allowed here in cases of adultary and fornication, yet forbidden later on in the New Testament?
c) Vengence is wrong; isn't it? Why is the Lord encouraging vengence against the Midian People?
d) Moses tells them: whoever has killed anyone of the midians, should be purified? I don't understand, why? God told them to kill the Midians, and now they are impure for doing so?
e) Then he tells them :"Save for yourselves every girl that is a virgin" - isn't that like stealing? They aren't yours?? How can you keep a woman that is not yours??
Dear QT,
My attempts at answering are:
a: You wouldn't - though you could guess - but not the same thing.
b: We have discussed before the difference between the OT and the NT, and this seems another example of that difference. Our Lord shows the fullness of God's plan and His love.
c: Again, in the OT God is often vengeful; the reasons for this we cannot know.
d: even a direct order from God cannot make what is wrong right; it may be necessary to kill, but afterwards purification is necessary.
e: this was not an uncommon practice in the ancient world; our conception of human rights was absent.
I am certain this is not a sufficient answer - but it may prompt a better one!
In Him,
Anglian
It would be very interesting to hear the answer.
I suspect it has something to do with the Incarnation, which does change everything, surely? With the Incarnate Word having died and risen for our salvation there is now a better way for us all.
In Christ,
Anglian
heaven) denoting that we need to fight throughout our heavholy life (Eph 6:14; Ps. 27:3). All got together as a sign of the spirit of love and parternership. That is why there is no mention of the military and weapons. The only mention is of leadership and the Zeal of Phinehas with the holy instruments and trumpets [7] that was aimed at every male, i.e. at evil thoughts.4) The spoils of war bear a symbolic side denoting the spiritually victorious human being. He enslaves the body (i.e. women), his deeds (the children)and his energies (the beasts) to win the kingdom of God. The burning of cities and forts denotes the destruction of the roots of sin in man's heart. Bringing all the spoils to Moses and Eleazar at the camp near Jordan signifies sanctifying all we have during the efficacy
of baptism [13-20].
5) The killing of sinful women [13-20] denotes the elimination of all causes leading to sin.
6) Purification of metals and clothing [21-24]: denotes our need to be purified by blood (Rev 7:14), through the performance of God's fiery Spirit. It is a wonder that those fighters we considered impure remained defiled until they underment purification before they could enter the camp. This indicates that God wanted to stress the fact that no man is invulnerable to sin no matter what heights his spiritual stature reaches or his spiritual endeavor for that matter.
7) Dividing the Spoils [25-54]: the fighters were given more than double the share of non-fighters (John 14:2; 1 Cor. 15-14); which is a gift from God. Nevertheless everyone was commited to pay tribute to God [28]. Gold wholly given away to the Tabernacle because whatever is heavenly must always be there where God abides.
The above does not answer any of your questions, really, but adds to the discussion. They are from Fr. Tadros Malaty.
GBU[li]We always forget that in the OT God was not yet reconciled with mankind: His wrath was fierce and the curse highly effective.[/li]
[li]God is Love but let's remember he is not only Love, He is also almighty and totally supreme.[/li]
[li]He is Life, He has all the authority and the total power to give life or to take it anytime.[/li]
[li]He is greatly grieved by sin and sinful acts, remember Sodom's fate versus repentant Nineveh.[/li]
[li]He must avenge His Holy Name before His holy people, they must appreciate His seriousness, His care, their involvement and all the spiritual implications and/or teaching of all events.[/li]
[li]The why and the how while keeping holiness by living in the fear of the only great jealous God. They are not to doubt or question His Will.[/li]
[li]He lays the strongest foundations for Holiness in a deeply-drowned and astray pagan world.
[/li][li]He prepares successive generations to be (hopefully) really ready to accept Christ coming.[/li]
[li]The fate of all kinds of sin and the sinners is a severe and deadly one[/li]
[li]That we are limited and the Lord's wisdom is far beyond our tiny (mis-)conceptions.[/li]
Thank you for such a wonderful summary - it is much appreciated.
In Christ,
Anglian
Thank you brother, you're very kind I'm glad to be helpful.
(meaningless and removed)
GBU
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5864.msg78761#msg78761 date=1193235705]
My questions are as follows:
a) If you are going into war to kill a nation, then how would you know if a woman is a virgin or not?
b) Why is killing allowed here in cases of adultary and fornication, yet forbidden later on in the New Testament?
c) Vengence is wrong; isn't it? Why is the Lord encouraging vengence against the Midian People?
d) Moses tells them: whoever has killed anyone of the midians, should be purified? I don't understand, why? God told them to kill the Midians, and now they are impure for doing so?
e) Then he tells them :"Save for yourselves every girl that is a virgin" - isn't that like stealing? They aren't yours?? How can you keep a woman that is not yours??
Dear QT,
My attempts at answering are:
a: You wouldn't - though you could guess - but not the same thing.
b: We have discussed before the difference between the OT and the NT, and this seems another example of that difference. Our Lord shows the fullness of God's plan and His love.
c: Again, in the OT God is often vengeful; the reasons for this we cannot know.
d: even a direct order from God cannot make what is wrong right; it may be necessary to kill, but afterwards purification is necessary.
e: this was not an uncommon practice in the ancient world; our conception of human rights was absent.
I am certain this is not a sufficient answer - but it may prompt a better one!
In Him,
Anglian
Anglian, i have a question for you. What are you implying on part "d" when you say "even a direct order from God cannot make what is wrong right?" In the context of the question are you saying that, even if God gives an order, than it doesnt necessarily mean it is right? Please clarify your statement.
God Bless
Tony
It is indeed a difficult one in the context of the Old Testament.
God told us through Moses that we should not kill. In the passage cited by QT the Israelites are directly commanded to kill. God is therefore commanding the Israelites to set aside His prohibition. That does not mean that God has set aside His own law, but it does mean that in this specific instance He has His reasons for commanding the Israelites to do as they did - afterward they had to purify themselves - as we must. God's law always stands; it is just that we cannot hope to always understand His ways, which are not our ways.
In Christ,
Anglian