I never really understood the point or the message of this verse

gregorytheSinner

We all know Psalm 50 by heart, because we constantly use it when praying the Agpeya
but can anyone explain the verse that says this:

"Against you only have I sinned and done evil against you, that you might be just in Your sayings, and might overcome when You are judged."

I mean when is God judged, or in a position of weakness that he might need to "overcome?"

socoolbishoy

Against You, You only, have I sinned,
        And done this evil in Your sight
        That You may be found just when You speak,
        And blameless when You judge.



use the New King James Version... I'm not sure which translation you are using... and if this is what your agpeya says... you should ask to have it changed A.S.A.P. because this is a tremendous mistake! but for your study and further reading just stick with the New King James... or the Septuagint translations

Unknown

SuperMAN(BAM) is right.

Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge (me).

or it can be translated to:

Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight
That You may be found just when You speak,
And vanquish when I am judged (by You)

GBU

jydeacon

John and Superman(BAM) are correct the translation you have is terribly wrong, nobody has the right to judge The Judge. it is supposed to be
Against You, You only, have i sinned
and done this evil in your sight
that You may be found Just when You speak,
and Blameless when You Judge,

King David wrote this psalm after he committed adultery and had that man murdered (thought i would just add that), so maybe that can show how your translation is mistaken because how can David be judging God?

Unknown

Actually it is the version given by Gregory the Sinner that is the correct one. The Septuagint - the divinely inspired Old Testament used by the Apostles and the Church Fathers - reads "[Coptic]Coi monw ymarton kai to ponyron enwpion cou epoiyca. opwc an dikaiw;yc en toic logouc cou kai nikycyc en tw krinec;ai ce[/coptic]," which translates as "Against Thee only have I sinned and done this evil before Thee, that Thou mightest be justified in Thy words, and prevail when Thou art judged."

The Psalter of the NKJV is based primarely upon the Masoretic Texts - the Old Testament used by the Jews, dating from around the 9th Century after Christ - and should not be taken as authoritative by Orthodox Christians.



Just to let everyone know, the complete Orthodox Study Bible - with a translation of the entire Septuagint Old Testament - will be released this February. You can already pre-order a copy for a discounted price.

Unknown

Thank you Orthodox11 for the info.

In this case, is it a prophecy?
i.e. is it speaking about Our Lord Jesus Christ?

GBU

socoolbishoy

Sep.
For I am conscious of mine iniquity; and my sin is continually before me.  Against thee only have I sinned, and done evil before thee: that thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.  For, behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me. For, behold, thou lovest truth: thou hast manifested to me the secret and hidden things of thy wisdom.  Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be purified: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.  Thou shalt cause me to hear gladness and joy: the afflicted bones shall rejoice.  Turn away thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit in my inward parts.  Cast me not away from thy presence; and remove not thy holy Spirit from me.  Restore to me the joy of thy salvation: establish me with thy directing Spirit.

NKJV
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,        And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice. Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me

okay you are correct... sorry, i doubted your source! but here let us view the book of psalms... the book of psalms is a poetic book, a book of poetic prayers,  now lets put what is said in an everyday language... God, I know my sins, and everywhere i go I'm reminded of them, God, against you, I've done all that is sinful, and not only that, but I did it all in your presence... that if you were to judge me... you would be justified to condemn me by every word you utter... and if i were to judge you on your judgment against me you would win... for I am a sinner, i was born with sin, even my conceiving was in sin... but God i have faith in you... and i could go on but you see the point!

now this is a meditation... but thats how i view it!

Unknown

[quote author=SuperMAN(BAM) link=topic=5931.msg79391#msg79391 date=1195068030]
if i were to judge you on your judgment against me you would win... for I am a sinner, i was born with sin, even my conceiving was in sin...


That's how I tend to view it. But, as John suggests, it could certainly be a prophecy about Christ overcoming the false judgment upon Him by the people who tried and killed Him - an event inseparably tied up with human sin. And do we not pridefully judge God every time we commit a sin? Everytime we break His commandments and justify our own actions?

Unknown

I read it in my Arabic Agbya as jydeacon says.
It is phrased in the indirect tense (I am judged)

But in either case woe to me  :'(
May the Lord forgive us all our sins. Amen.

GBU

Unknown

[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=5931.msg79393#msg79393 date=1195069520]
I read it in my Arabic Agbya as jydeacon says.
It is phrased in the indirect tense (I am judged)


But have the Psalms of your Agpia been translated from the Coptic or Greek, or are they taken from standard Arabic translations of the Bible, the majority of which are based on the Masoretic texts rather than the Septuagint?

Unknown

Interesting.
I am not sure what was the source but I'll ask.
Probably like you said: taken from standard Arabic translations.

mmatt95

All the readings in church books in arabic (the katameros books of all seasons) and the agpeya prayers, and all quotes in hymns and in the Midnight praises are taken from the Coptic translation, and therefore from the Septuagint.

and might overcome when You are judged

I always understand this verse in the following way: we very easily disagree with God's plan and judge him for being onfair to us. Oten we say to Him that he's injust. This verse says that God is always the Just Judge, so when I come to disagree with Him in my life (or on Judgement day), he will overcome and be proven fair and just.
A good example from the bible is Job, he came to the point that he wanted God to come down and argue with Him, and when God's voice spoke to Job he admitted that he was wrong and that God was right.

PS note also that this verse was quoted by St Paul in his epistle to the Romans (Ro 3:4), and he quoted it from the Greek Old Testament.

That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged (KJV)

mmatt95

Dear Orthodox11,

I just realised I basically said the same thing as u lol, I didn't read well through all the post ;)

The prophecy idea is also interesting, I never thought of it that way.

smile4ever

the arabic text in Agpeya says exactly as Gregorythesinner said "...might overcome when You are judged"...the problem with this particuar verse in arabic that it's written in the passive voice which some don't realise specially without "taskeel"..
[quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5931.msg79396#msg79396 date=1195069982]
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=5931.msg79393#msg79393 date=1195069520]
I read it in my Arabic Agbya as jydeacon says.
It is phrased in the indirect tense (I am judged)


But have the Psalms of your Agpia been translated from the Coptic or Greek, or are they taken from standard Arabic translations of the Bible, the majority of which are based on the Masoretic texts rather than the Septuagint?

the psalms of the Agpeya were translated to Arabic from the Coptic translation of the Bible wich is based on the Septuagint..it's very different from the Arabic translation "Smith and Vandick" the one based on the Masoretic texts .