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Abortion?
ok so i kno it was probably discussed before
but my two friends ahve been "doing it" for like 2 months straight unprotected
adn as expected she got pregnant
now there both 19 .......i personally told them to get the abortion cuz i dont view it as wrong or that "im killing a soul" cuz i think the embryo still doesnt ahve a soul
but the only thing that makes me hesitant is that ........by getting an abortion they'll be stopping the will of God
What does everybody think?
but my two friends ahve been "doing it" for like 2 months straight unprotected
adn as expected she got pregnant
now there both 19 .......i personally told them to get the abortion cuz i dont view it as wrong or that "im killing a soul" cuz i think the embryo still doesnt ahve a soul
but the only thing that makes me hesitant is that ........by getting an abortion they'll be stopping the will of God
What does everybody think?
Comments
The church generally doesn't agree with abortions, except for very special situations, so if you really want to go with the church...no abortion because it is stopping the will of God, and it is murder.
(i might be wrong though..?)
ok so i kno it was probably discussed before
but my two friends ahve been "doing it" for like 2 months straight unprotected
adn as expected she got pregnant
now there both 19 .......i personally told them to get the abortion cuz i dont view it as wrong or that "im killing a soul" cuz i think the embryo still doesnt ahve a soul
but the only thing that makes me hesitant is that ........by getting an abortion they'll be stopping the will of God
What does everybody think?
i think your main problem is with the "doing it" part......now she can go speak to her priest and he'll lead her.
the church view of abortionwere listed before.
God Bless
Tony
the thing is i kno abortion is wrong but i htink its wrong because im going against what God set in action
i mean i always Considered that the soul of a child comes with birth not when its still in the uterus?
(i may be wrong on the soul point, but thats my thinking towards the matter at hand )
Secondly another reason why i told him to abort it is because its only 5 weeks to add to that its worse if the child is born to two really irresponsible people who are still in shcool
- too young
- will interefere with studies
- cannot financially cope
- shame to family, may result in fractured families even crimes
- loss of career oportunities
- will be permanently involved with person I have just been uncomitted to
- Breast cancer risk
- Pregnancy symptoms: headaches, palpitations, fainting, polyuria (urinating with frequency), abdominal pain, breathlessness, constipation and haemorrhoids, reflux oesophagitis and heartburn, backache (in the last 3 months), prurigo of pregnancy (really itchy), carpal tunnel syndrome (where your thumbs and pointers tingle when you bend them), ankle oedema, leg cramps, nausea and vomitting
- there is a lot of responsibility to eat right (plenty of fat, folate, iron, iodine, B12), not to have the wrong drugs at the wrong time, not to over exert etc.
- possibility of complications such as Pre-eclampsia, Sheehan syndrome etc.
But you are going to cut a probably 80 year life, because you made the wrong decision in the first place to have unprotected sex. Does that seem fair?
And quite frankly, your friends' situation is nothing controversial like rape or giving birth to a child who may suffer mental illness or various deformities [kyrie eleson]. The fact that your friend is pregnant is solely her fault and by God, that child does have a soul from the moment it was given the potential for life. It is certainly an undesirable situation, but can you kill what God has created? No. If God didn't want your friend to be pregnant, would it have occurred? No. So we, who are but dust, are to stop the will of the Creator? No.
I'm sorry for your friends, but an abortion of that sort is blatant murder. If she decides to go through with it, then well, God have mercy on her soul, and her child's.
- Breast cancer risk
- Pregnancy symptoms: headaches, palpitations, fainting, polyuria (urinating with frequency), abdominal pain, breathlessness, constipation and haemorrhoids, reflux oesophagitis and heartburn, backache (in the last 3 months), prurigo of pregnancy (really itchy), carpal tunnel syndrome (where your thumbs and pointers tingle when you bend them), ankle oedema, leg cramps, nausea and vomitting
- there is a lot of responsibility to eat right (plenty of fat, folate, iron, iodine, B12), not to have the wrong drugs at the wrong time, not to over exert etc.
- possibility of complications such as Pre-eclampsia, Sheehan syndrome etc.
Oof, that certainly makes pregnancy sound like a nightmare. You don't want to scare all the women around here into ceasing the perpetuation of man :P
Our doctrine has it that any abortion is a sin unless labor would threaten the mother's life.
And quite frankly, your friends' situation is nothing controversial like rape or giving birth to a child who may suffer mental illness or various deformities [kyrie eleson]. The fact that your friend is pregnant is solely her fault and by God, that child does have a soul from the moment it was given the potential for life. It is certainly an undesirable situation, but can you kill what God has created? No. If God didn't want your friend to be pregnant, would it have occurred? No. So we, who are but dust, are to stop the will of the Creator? No.
I'm sorry for your friends, but an abortion of that sort is blatant murder. If she decides to go through with it, then well, God have mercy on her soul, and her child's.
Yes, I totally agree. That would put u in a situation of conspiracy to murder.
Abortions are so widely available now that it allows promiscuity. If people were responsible from the beginning, this wouldn't have happened.
I cannot believe you gave them this advice!! Its totally unchristian.
2- Your friend were sinning in the first place so they are already full of sin do they wan't more sins to pile next to their name in the book of life?
3- Are they athiests? Because if so they wont care about anything and it is going to be hard to convince them.
4- Did u know that abortion is a sin. U shouldn't have adviced them to do it. I think that HH pope Shenouda said that the baby will have a spirit from the second it forms and not after a few months so it equals murder.
I cannot still believe, as a Coptic Christian, YOU ACTUALLY ADVISED THEM to go through the route of having an abortion!!!! SHAME ON U!!
If they didn't have you to advise them, and they were aethiests, then they'd have probably had an abortion. So, as a CHristian, what u did was the same as someone who had NO VALUES!! U didn't make a difference!!
1. this is forum for advice not scolding
2. their muslim
3. i never stated taht what i said was correct both morally and in the Christian point of view.
4. yes its a physcial relationship, i mean there only lke 19, and they think their in love, which everyone around them knows is not true
5. i advised them not as a christian, but as a person from a non-religous stance, because i'm not gonna force my beliefs on them
6. yet again prior to you guy's advice i simply believed that abortion was only wrong because it was going against what God had set forth in action. I didnt' find it a full "murder" because the embryo is still in teh formation stage i.e. its bodily organs are just starting to form, meaning it doesnt have a funcitoning brain yet or anything..
7. the enviroment the child to be born in, is completely unsuitable for a decent upbringing. Both the father and mother are completely irresponsible, and their parents are gonna not have anything to do with this, and were in EGYPT.
8. As you guys pointed out Abortion is against our Church, but desperate times call for desperate measures. By this i mean: There was a coptic girl, here in egypt who fornicated with a muslim guy (by her own will), and got pregnant and to solve this problem they got her an abortion and tehn sent her up to one of the monasteries to stay in. Now this was all done under teh supervision of Chruch Servants and i belive Priests.
5. i advised them not as a christian, but as a person from a non-religous stance, because i'm not gonna force my beliefs on them
So you define your person as a separate entity from you, the Christian? Your religion isn't part of you, my friend, it's supposed to be the WHOLE of you. You have no existence outside of your faith in Christ. So how would you advise people as a non-Christian?
I am sorry that this sounds like scolding, and I showed you in my first post that I understand there are legitimate concerns that these parents face in particular. However, God has given enough grace to your Muslim friends to be able to do the right thing, and that is bear the consequence and carry the cross. I am their age, and having a child would be the end of my ambitions as I know it. It will be devastating! (Hence the reason I don't have premarital sex). So, I know it is going to be tough. I feel sorry for them, but sex is sacred for this very reason and that is the expression of love with the product being life. To undermine the essence of sex like that in such a final and total way has its own consequences. If God wills for this baby not to be born, a miscarriage might just happen anyway. And even if these parents do not feel like having the baby, even that will give them unrest.
I consider you take the advice people go to and then talk to your father of confession about your friends and then about the decisions that you are facing or anything. And tell these people it's compltely against thier religion, if they obviosuly dind't know that, to get abortion. They should be more knowleadgable about their faith....
And, no, desperate times DONT CALL FOR DESPERATE MEASURES... killing someone?? is that how desperate you are... it was their fault to "do it" so no, obviously they sinned and now they have to face it. That little saying or cliche does not really work in this case... and shouldn't if it was anyone's fault in the beginning. Please rethink whta you are telling these people... Then rethink of your own faith.
Sorry if that was scolding.
kk
1. this is forum for advice not scolding
2. their muslim
3. i never stated taht what i said was correct both morally and in the Christian point of view.
The 1st point is very true, and I think people should be slow to judging here! Let's not be hypocrites: who here has thought that the easy, most convenient road was the one you would take if you were not Christian and have even advised it!
Being Muslim does not mean they are not under the Divine Law. It does not make them any less responsible for their actions, or devoid of ability to pursue God's commandments. They are not immune to the toxic effects of sin, as this situation surely portrays. If you don't believe in the world is round, regardless of what you believe, and when you go to the farthest parts of the world you won't fall. No, you will probably get scurvy, or be a victim of some cyclone....
The thing is brother, you are first a Christian, and then you are a citizen. To give secular advise is a trouble many of us experience, I mean imagine the Christian Doctors, Psychiatrists, Psychologists and Lawyers, whose patients and clients are asking legal but morally unsound products/services. This is a very complex issue- but even in these positions the Law allows these professionals to refer if they are put into a moral delimna. This situation is different, you are thinking that Christian prejudice is not ideal for these non-Christians; this is the more serious problem here. The secular prejudice is based on faulty thinking that God is not Pantokrator, and we are victims of chance, genetics and the like. You got to make up your mind, and base your mind, heart, soul, and strength on this prejudice; but of course knowing your prejudice, try to think about others prejudice when interacting with others. This, however, will not result in giving advice that are abominable, but a concession of understanding, and empathy, but not approval.
And regardless, if your Christian point of view is not your only point of view, what does that make you. (And I ask that to myself!). Am I a hybrid? What relationship does darkness have with light? Is my mind divided? Am I two people? Do I have two Ideologies? Which one do I serve with loyalty, and which one do I despise?
If you are put in the position where you think the Christian advise is deficient, then you seriously have to question your own beliefs. This is something I constantly face, due to my own pride and false piety. We are grafted into the Vine Tree, and if we are going to get the nutrients of the trunk, we have to assimilate so that the various nutrient channels (forgot what they are called) are contiguous (continuing).
towards the whole matter, God bless you all
but
Copticchica although it might seem like it, i never viewed abortion as being OK......i viewed it as wrong because it was going agaisnt what God had set in action, i did not view it as fullblown murder in this case b/c the embryo is only 5 weeks old meaning its stomach is just starting to take shape but still has no function, just as the rest of its body this is in addtion to my view and some of your views that desperate times call for desperate measures i.e. if the mothers life was at hand, or the thing that happend here in egypt about the coptic girl who got pregnant (by her own will). Secondly you and user00 both decided to take teh seat of judgement to say "get new friends" meaning these people were bad, no one of us in a position to judge, because let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I mean sure they're not the smartest and the most "saintliest" but they're not bad souls. You cant judge a person by their sins, but you judge them by whether they repented or not.
Secondly DoubtingThomas clearly understood what i was trying to say, about the whole matter of differnt faith, but their is still a little confusion with the whole matter: I don't know their own faith and I am not gonna talk about it with them. Also personally speaking, whether i am a Christian or not, concerns me and my church, and by this i mean i am not gonna go out in the streets, and tell everyone who is not a Christian that what theyre doing is haram and this is not, because i myself am Christian?? thats hypocricy at it's best. Of course I serve Christ and of course i am Christian before anything else, but htis doesnt mean that i try to force my ideas and beliefs on them, lets not forget that we have to live in peace with other religons. Remember what St. Paul said, "to the jews I've become a jew and to the gentiles, a gentile." by this he meant htat he had to talk to these people with the language that they'd understand to get them to understand his view. Imagine for example a muslim sheikh is friends with a coptic priest, and then sheikh decideds to get marreid for the second time and asks the priest for his advice, will the priest say NO NO DONT DO IT, its against my religon so you cant' do it?
Lastly just so you people know, my ideas were actually to get marreid ASAP, but hwne that wasn't gonna work, i had to go w/ my "desperate times call for desperate measures" theory and even when i said it, i said it hesitantly, because as i said i dont fully support abortion, unless it is needed.
a) Refrain from making any advice
b) Say that with his precepts, it would be wrong to have a second wife.
You keep thinking certain parameters we live by as rules, or Church teachings, but they are much more than that- they are precepts. Outside of them, we should be reluctant to afford advice, because they are contrary to indelible principles. To say, "if I was not religious, what would I do?" is just grasping at straws, because your religion is not some external thing to strive before, but something intrinsically part of your makeup.
This is not like inviting the non-Christian into your house, and making him say grace because your Church says everyone at your dinner table should give thanks to the Lord! There are arbitary rules, I agree. They are things like how we address Abouna perhaps. Things more cultural, or due to being part of the Church family. But the things you have argued thus far are from arbitrary rules. They are based on life principles.
Many of the Christian principles in which we esteem are not just based on our faith in the Sovereign Lord, but as deep understanding that the things contrary have consequences.
For instance, even secular Christians and Muslims in the West, and Atheists for that matter know that having more than one wife is problematic, not only to the state but to the equity of the man and wife. Multiple marriages is probably the quickest way to denigrate women to such a low level as property. What about the wife this hypothetical Sheikh already has? How about her securities and her equal rights as a fellow human being. Won't this be neglected by the Sheikh's marriage? Why can't the lady have a second marriage? Why is the equity so misconstrued? Why would the priest, or Christian for that matter comment on something that is so against many Christian principles, such as the wholeness of marriage. Christians advocate bans against homosexual marriage everywhere, not because in the Church they don't allow it, but by principle they see this as damaging to the social fabric and upbringing of children. If we voice our opinion so candidly for this issue, then so the more should never advocate outside our Church other deviant social morals such as second marriages, Fatwas, Abortion, artificial insemination for non-married couples, "mercy" killings etc. To marginalise this to our Church is a concession that our core principles were not intended for the whole of mankind- it is to believe we are more morally superior than the rest of the world. Instead, we should endeavour to make our principles Universal values, as these were the values intended by our Maker and outside them there is no spurious thinking.
There are very real reasons behind our principles, and our faith has just illuminated to these very rational consequences of inadvertent behaviour. To think that there are circumstances in which if we think secularly we would advocate and be indifferent to contrary morals is quite dubious. Our inner core principle is love, and frankly the two issues you have alerted us are both things contrary to love.
What is more concerning is that even secular Christians and non-Christians value life and basic human rights. Christian principles just illuminates and establishes what we know intrinsically to be true. God has given all man a sense of right and wrong. Thus, as much as their religion may or may not condone a certain practice, as a friend who has the principles of right and wrong *confirmed*, *not created*, I do not foresee any reason at least for what you have elicited to give advise so contrary to your principles.
I mean you are devaluating life, you are promoting indifference to responsibility, and you are being faithless about the sovereignty of God to bring meaning to the unborn child's life. I know you fear that all their life dreams have severed, and you pity. I do too! If I was in that position, gosh, I would be contemplating such methods. But we must rise above our insecurities and situation, and find the strength to accept responsibility. Even if this child would have better been born later on; that does not take away the fact that this baby is being born now, and once aborted, his spirit will never roam on this earth as God intended. Even from a secular view, to promote irresponsibility and indifference to life makes us mere animals trying to survive in as much convenience as possible.
lets start with my "hypothetical scenario" the priest would have been pressured to say his two cents, and if he were to reply w/ his own precepts it would probably sound like this "Yes sure why not, I can't do that because its wrong in Christainty, but you can so OK" which basically means he agrees.
Now my view towards religon and its' rules, is simple because I believe that simplicity itself is a blessing. By this i mean i like to think that "My Religon with its rules and teachings and precepts Apply only to me and my fellow brothers/sisters in the faith"
I'll give you another example: Here in Egypt, when Ramadan comes along all the University cafaterias close down and so do most stores that sell food/beverages because all the Muslims are fasting. Now many Christians as a sign of respect and unity refrain from eating and drinkin infront of Muslims. Personally I continue about normally because although they like to show off their fasting and promote their religon and have it affect others by causing them to fast i refuse to follow by it because it's not part of my faith. (This is unless Ramadan falls during a time of fasting for us) I also continue about normally because i know that when Lent rolls along, no consideration will be taken to me fasting.
Principles like wise are something that are under the effect of society, culture and religon. So when it comes to abortion:
So Society (this view is shared by both religons)
the child will be a misfit, an illegitmate child, both paretns will carry shame, unacceptable to both families, etc.
According ot Culture
The child yet again will face difficulty here, i.e. if the child's parents decide to get married to someone different, the preson who is to be this kid step dad/mom will look at him differntly because the egyptian culture dictates him too, whether he means to or not
Lastly Religon
Th child will be illegitmate in both cases, and speaking on behalf of Christianity (b/c i dont know what his status will be in islam) if the child was brought up Christian he'd be an equal to others because God loves His creation.
So since this whole abortion thing is a matter of principles we should take in consideration society's, our culture's, and the religon's aspect in determining what those principles are and if its worht having the child delievered.
Now in Islam, polygomy is somehting allowed but not as popular, mainly because Egypt has modernized some of it's thinking. However in their religon its is fine for them to have up to four women at once, aslong as they are able to support them and treat them equally (of course with four women, i doubt one iwll be able to treat them ALL equally). And most men who get re-married over their wives, do it because they lust for another woman. Now homosexuallity is a different issue, because its (non acceptance) has more to do with Religons affect on princples in common society. Because in most religons it is banned, in Christianity of course quite contrary to what many smaller denominations say its completely banned, and this is seen in many chapters of the Bible. I'm paraphrasing here, but St Paul once said that hell is reserved for a list of people, and homosexuals were at the top of that list.
Abortion, Art. Insemination, mercy kllings, and all those other things however follow principles likewise, but not religous based principles but cultural and societical (if thats even a word). Thus these differ from religous based principles as homosexuality.
I now understand, that one must value in-uterine life, because it has the chance of becoming a human. But when it boils down to the medical aspect of it i believe taht before a certain "week" the embryo is not a "functioning embryo" meaning its purely developmental. And when its at this stage, and the outside factors are as such in this scenario, then we have to consider, would it not be a shame to put this "to-be child" in an enviroment not welcoming to him, just so we can stick to our guns and preserve his life. I mean a sin is a sin, would it not be a bigger sin to let him be born and not be able to grow up normally, or better yet let him be born with resenment from the people around him. Dont principles affect this too, i mean shouldnt everyone be given an equal oppurtonity at life, not a disadvantaged one. This view however does not mean i support abortion, i am just saying a possible view.
I am by no way devaluating life, or promoting an indiff. to responsiblity. This was a view shared by one of my firends whose involved in this story, taht they should take responsibilty and raise the kid. But honeslty will a childs parents who are so irresponosible themselves (to the point that htey wantd to run-away) be able to raise a child properly and turn him into a functioning human being. I highly doubt in fact, if anything, the way this kid will be raised can only lead to a dead end life. This point is the mainly why i had the pro-abortion view, because the kid will not be able to be raised right, and iwll not fit in. So which is worse, death as an embryo or death after 80 years of life livng as a disadvantaged human in most of it, if not all of it.
Honestly right now, the most i or anyone can do is pray that hte baby is miscarried.
Polygamy is not what God intended; it is not just a rule! It is a serious evil that has by the grace of God been rectified in the New Testament. While we can understand that since the Muslims deny that this is a serious issue, and it is acceptable in their religion and culture, does not mean we should voice out against it. The Mormons in the US wanted it legislated, but the Christians defended the woman's dignity in the US.
Secondly, you are not your limbs or your body. A child is developing! Where do you make the line that someone is human. You are a spirit first, and then you are a body. To link incomplete features with humanity is to greatly offend those who have been born without limbs, organs and the like. If I cut your right side of your brain, are you half a human? If you were born without a kidney, are you half a human. If you are paraplegic or a quadraplegic, are you a fraction of a human? it is silly to think that since they are just developing that they are less than human, when we develop apart from in-utero. Your arguments justifies infanticide. Just because infants are palpable and embryo's are not, does not mean anything. The baby already has primitive forms of a kidney, heart, lungs etc.
So yes, the baby will have it tough. Should we kill all babies already born to irresponsible parents? Think about what you are arguing. If the baby in utero and the born baby are both human, in which I have clearly atested to, then how comes we can make a distinction on who can survive and who cannot.
And you say the baby's life is going to be difficult. Whose life is not difficult! Are you going to offer to kill orphans?
Your argument for non-functioning, is the same as those who are senile and live in the high-care retirement facilities. Should we go killing them off too?
The case 8 from before was woeful, and the Church people involved have sinned and will be judged. DO not use that as an example, because that was disgusting.
Honestly right now, the most i or anyone can do is pray that hte baby is miscarried.
I understand what you mean, but this is Western thinking. Look at places like Sudan, even some places in Egypt, in third world countries, and you will see many people who live in stark poverty. Should God have had mercy on them by not allowing them to be born?
BOYS N GURLS
PERFECT N SINNERS
clearly no one here has made a mistake or given the wrong advice b4!!!
i think gregory knows perhaps his advice was misleading but im sure his intentions were good sooo bak up off him aye geeez!!!
the scenario has been set...greg sought advice n both church n moral advice was given thread CLOSED :P
May the Lord guide n support this couple in making the right decision n may we all pray for wisdom n knowledge n be a positive role models
Firstly, I want to reiterate that I am not judging Gregory. I mean, I know there are very real, strong, potent urges to want to get the easy way out. I certainly know why he would think at the time that Abortion was worth exploring. Gosh! It is not rocket science to see how Gregory thought! He did so out compassion for his friends- that is obvious. He wanted his friends to have the best life as possible; continuing education, having jobs and life; not to be stressed, have career opportunities perhaps closed etc. Oh and having to commit with someone you were not before contemplating! These are not things to take lightly (but neither is taking a life, which I know Gregory does not secularly even believe is worthless, but it just seemed that outside the Church it is worth less, at least comparative to the real strifes these parents will endure?)
I mean I have taken short-cuts myself! I have lied to get myself out of trouble, I have screamed to try to get my point across, I have went to see evil movies with friends because I wanted desperately to fit, I hurt someone in an argument to win it and the list goes on. Goodness knows how much more evil things I have done than abortion. I have murdered my own life again and again. And it is not my life, but the Lord's. Far be it from me, the point of my posts were to argue against Gregory's thoughts, and try to show them as inconsistent and intrinsically incongruous to what I know he esteems.
I think Gregory knew that. Gregory is obviously a smart, educated, and devoted guy. But we must renew our minds, our hearts, and understanding.
I have been wrestling with Euthanasia, stem cell research and Abortion etc. as a student doctor, an Electorate, and just personal interest. I still do! I mean the urge to stop suffering that you perceive to happen is so strong! You have to be so far removed from the world not to see why Gregory or anyone else for that matter would think that was reasonable outside the Church. But what I am trying to impress here is that our value for life is something we cannot confine to the Church. It was meant to be Universal, and it should be Universal. And you don't have to be a Christian to realize that life is sacred, because God has given us a conscience, and hence when we speak to our fellow man outside the Church about these God-given principles, they can understand us.
Gregory, Kerestina, if I have been judgmental in anyway, I am really, really sorry- and God will surely punish me, because indeed I have carried my point across very strongly.
Sorry for not having read all the views in this thread. But, just to add, scientifically "A ZYGOTE IS ALIVE (AND THEREFORE HAS A SOUL) WHEN A SPERM FERTILIZES AN OVUM.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
you said Understandable, but a preist serves as a Shepard to HIS FLOCK, not to everyone around him, thus he guides them , it doenst mean he gets invovled with other religons and asks them to follow his way because his way is right, because they dont' view polygomy as we do. Why else do you think the Pope asked Abouna Zakaria to stop, because he was involving himself with other religons and crticiziing them from OUR point of view, whcih caused unrest, and thus his blood here in egypt is "mohalal". Meaning they're willin to pay a guap for his head.
Secondly as for the argument about a person being his limbs or his body, i didn't mean it in that sense, and no disrespect at all was inteded to people who are born missing limbs. What was meant by that is that, the body is not developed YET and the heart is not pounding. People born without limbs are fully developed, not in the process of developing, adn their heart is pounding. Although the primitive heart is seen it is still not pounding and by the fifth week its only a tube, not even a primitive heart. And i belive you'd agree with me on this one that the most vital organ of the body is the heart, without it pounding = no life or at least this is how i view it.
Now i love your argument about how many children are born to irresponsible parents. The diff here is taht they're already born, with a Pounding Heart = Alive. So to stop their life would be a killing. You misunderstood my "non-functioning argument" by this i meant that the embryo is still in the formation stage meaning its just a bunch of cells that are dviding, thus it has no fuction. Senile people are alive they have functions, they eat, drink, sleep, etc.
As for the example from before, both you and i dont kno if what they did is a sin or not. A priest was involved, and the priest didn't just jump in, he logically had to sit down adn think about it and he must have consulted other priests if not bishops before he took action.
KK i have another point ot bring up, abortion as you say is only allowed if the mothers life is at stake. So killng an embryo/fetus is ok if the mothers life is in danger. Now someone i dont kno if it was you mentioned before that the embryo is a "human" who is an "equal". So if the mother's life is in danger, why must the embryo die? Is this because the mother's life is more valued than tha of the embryo,? If so then equality is not seen here.
Lastly about my hoping for a miscarriage, i'm not hoping for it because the child will live poverty, because money is not everything. I'm hoping for it because of the up binging of the child will not be suitable. THus that soul you dont want to kill now, will end up dying in the end and instead of going to heaven it'll go to hell.
thanks kerestina
and the intro
simply lovely haha
I had given the advice to my friend and as i infromed you i gave it to them strictly "non-religously" but then wen i re-thought about it myself i started feeling bad because its against my beliefs. But do i believe (all religousness aside) that my advice was wrong...nope, i only find it wrong because my religon says it is, not theirs (from wat i understand). And this thread only helped bring to mind other reasons why abortion is wrong. This doesnt mean im pro-abortion, im anti-abortion but i have a moderate view towards it.
Understandable, but a preist serves as a Shepard to HIS FLOCK, not to everyone around him, thus he guides them , it doenst mean he gets invovled with other religons and asks them to follow his way because his way is right, because they dont' view polygomy as we do. Why else do you think the Pope asked Abouna Zakaria to stop, because he was involving himself with other religons and crticiziing them from OUR point of view, whcih caused unrest, and thus his blood here in egypt is "mohalal". Meaning they're willin to pay a guap for his head.
Again, why would the Priest involve himself in giving advice contrary to his beliefs? Why not just keep silent? The Pope didn't ask Abouna Zakaria to criticise them from other points of view, or their point of view, but just don't make unrest. There is a huge difference in promoting ethical thinking, and denigrating all these who believe in unethical practices.
Secondly, polygamy is serious evil that I don't think we should be silent about. It's affects on women is really pernicious.
[quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=5941.msg79509#msg79509 date=1195508482]
Secondly as for the argument about a person being his limbs or his body, i didn't mean it in that sense, and no disrespect at all was inteded to people who are born missing limbs. What was meant by that is that, the body is not developed YET and the heart is not pounding. People born without limbs are fully developed, not in the process of developing, adn their heart is pounding. Although the primitive heart is seen it is still not pounding and by the fifth week its only a tube, not even a primitive heart. And i belive you'd agree with me on this one that the most vital organ of the body is the heart, without it pounding = no life or at least this is how i view it.
We are still developing outside the uterus, and there are many instances where our heart is not pounding. Should we kill all the kids on a ventilator and a pace-maker, because they are still developing and their heart is not pounding. You fail to see that there is no difference between the foetus and many people in society. If it is wrong to kill out, what makes it right to kill in the uterus?
Secondly polygamy is an Evil, have i ever said it wasn't. However i am saying it is not for us to go about choosing what is right for their women. A muslim man can't be marreid to two wives unless his first one agrees to the second. Thus what we see as being evil might seem normal to them. In fact my friend here, he's half english half egyptian, and his father (egyptian) is marreid two three other women in addition to his mom.
theres a differnce between the heart pumping in general = which shows life
and the heart having problems pumping, when someone is placed on a pacemaker its not because his heart is not pumping but because the heart is not pumping normally, which could either be two fast or two slow. You stated That is your opinionated theory, not necessarily a fact, because this case is like the Half Filled glass of water. You see it half filled, and i see it half empty.
Would you ask your Muslim friend if you should go to Church this Midnight praise or not? Should you ask your Atheist friend whether you should donate more money to the Church buildings? What do you expect them to say? Are you asking them to get into your shoes; they don't have them on, and they haven't tried it. It's just plain silly; and we do it a lot. But its still silly.
So he would either be silent to ensure no uproar, or tell the truth. No one just because he is friends are going to entertain things that they feel are wrong, or give advice about things they don't approve.
Gregory, I think, you keep on seeing abortion and women's rights as something exclusive to the Church- or just plain religiosity. That is just not on. There is not a set of rules for the religious and rules for the non-religious; we just can't expect that everyone would follow the rules, that's all. These aren't just rules of culture; these are life principles that you believe have been invoked by God to all of mankind, and which standard He will judge all. These are ethics.
Forget the pacemaker, how about someone in Surgery, where they have "frozen" the heart; has the person ceased to be human? Perhaps, he is not living; does that mean as his life is suspended, that he is dead? Where did you get this idea that a pumping heart is the maker of life? Is not the spirit eternal, and our life eternal. Obviously spirit=life. Or, perhaps, the production of blood is life, for weren't in the OT the people not allowed to eat flesh with its blood because it was life? If that is the case, well the fetus already has their own distinct blood supply and HbF.
You are the one making opinions. I am merely comparing the foetus to individuals outside the uterus, and showing how you can't determine what is a "person" by those arbitrary things you consider as criteria. You have made the criteria, not me, I am just showing how such criteria is false.
We are not looking at different sides of the coin. You say someone is dependent, nonfunctional, developing, hidden is not a living person, and I showed examples of real people outside the uterus that you would not kill. Your criteria is the one made up; you drew the line, not me. Instead I consistently show that the mystery of life should be held from conception; not its first breath, or heart beat.
By the way, I believe the morning-after pill is not abortion. The embryo has not implanted, nor has the sperm entered the oocyte.