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Judas & communion?

Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
hey everyone, i cant seem to find where in the bible it says that Judas did NOT partake of the body and blood of christ at the passover. And i was reading some orthodox theology and it said Judas never took the body and blood because of his iniquities.

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=5968.msg79753#msg79753 date=1196280013]
    hey everyone, i cant seem to find where in the bible it says that Judas did NOT partake of the body and blood of christ at the passover. And i was reading some orthodox theology and it said Judas never took the body and blood because of his iniquities.


    it doesn't really specifiy if he did or not. in 2 of the gospels that mension this do not clearfy the timing of everything at that time. that why some consider judas being there in last supper, in most icons, and others don't, in other icons.
  • gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
    what i remember learning was that:
    Jesus said He who dips the bread with me will betray me (or he who i pass the bread to first) will betray me
    and whne he passed it to Judas he got up and left
  • LifeinChristLifeinChrist
    [quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=5968.msg79756#msg79756 date=1196284977]
    what i remember learning was that:
    Jesus said He who dips the bread with me will betray me (or he who i pass the bread to first) will betray me
    and whne he passed it to Judas he got up and left

    that is true. In a lot of the icons i see it has the 11 and then judas in the background with the sack of silver. I believe from what i learned, he was there, then left. But I do not think it says that in the Bible. However it would make sense. I guess. Please correct me if I am wrong.
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    yeah i noticed that too. but in the bible it was clear that he was there at the passover, but no where did it say that he didnt eat the body and blood. But my question is, if it truly was the body and blood of christ which im sure it was, than why did Jesus allow judas to partake of it. One preist told me Jesus only let his disciples partake of his body and blood, not even the multitude. But it makes no sense now if he allowed Judas to partake of it.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5968.msg79758#msg79758 date=1196287940]
    that is true. In a lot of the icons i see it has the 11 and then judas in the background with the sack of silver. I believe from what i learned, he was there, then left. But I do not think it says that in the Bible. However it would make sense. I guess. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    in two diffrent gospels, i think Matthew's and John's, 1 says he was there, another doesn't. But HH said that in the icon there should always be 12 and judas being with out the sack of silver since he's not a saint.


    [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=5968.msg79759#msg79759 date=1196288544]
    yeah i noticed that too. but in the bible it was clear that he was there at the passover, but no where did it say that he didnt eat the body and blood. But my question is, if it truly was the body and blood of christ which im sure it was, than why did Jesus allow judas to partake of it. One preist told me Jesus only let his disciples partake of his body and blood, not even the multitude. But it makes no sense now if he allowed Judas to partake of it.


    i wouldn't consider that as a reason because He only did this when it was time for Him to depart and die. So He did this to establish another sacrement.

    also if u think about it......it shows God's mercy...He still granted judas His body and blood, but he still denyd Him......alos don't forget that there is always a chance for repentence, which judas didn't take and killed himslef.
  • LifeinChristLifeinChrist
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5968.msg79760#msg79760 date=1196290521]
    [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5968.msg79758#msg79758 date=1196287940]
    that is true. In a lot of the icons i see it has the 11 and then judas in the background with the sack of silver. I believe from what i learned, he was there, then left. But I do not think it says that in the Bible. However it would make sense. I guess. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    in two diffrent gospels, i think Matthew's and John's, 1 says he was there, another doesn't. But HH said that in the icon there should always be 12 and judas being with out the sack of silver since he's not a saint.


    Why would he not hold it if he is not a saint... please explain im confused.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5968.msg79762#msg79762 date=1196295635]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5968.msg79760#msg79760 date=1196290521]
    [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5968.msg79758#msg79758 date=1196287940]
    that is true. In a lot of the icons i see it has the 11 and then judas in the background with the sack of silver. I believe from what i learned, he was there, then left. But I do not think it says that in the Bible. However it would make sense. I guess. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    in two diffrent gospels, i think Matthew's and John's, 1 says he was there, another doesn't. But HH said that in the icon there should always be 12 and judas being with out the sack of silver since he's not a saint.


    Why would he not hold it if he is not a saint... please explain im confused.


    hold what?
  • LifeinChristLifeinChrist
    the sack of silver
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=His Servant link=topic=5968.msg79767#msg79767 date=1196299234]
    the sack of silver


    actaully ur rit....i said it all wrong.....he does hold the sack of silve........sorryyy
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    i was just reading some exlanatory notes from the orthodox church on this topic and it turns out that we dont kno if judas ate the bread and wine, but we do know that the bread and wine did not convert to actual body and blood because Jesus did not yet die on the cross. So when he said this is my body and blood it was a symbol. Which is why he said "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." He meant im not going to drink this now, but when i am in my fathers kingdom i will drink it WITH YOU.. Not meaning in heaven ill drink it with you, but when this is all over, when you to partake of the body and blood I WILL partake of it WITH you meaning, i will be with you. But now, i will not be with you because i have not made the sacrifice yet. But when you do "do this in rememberance of me", i will do it with you also.... Not sure if my sources are 100% correct or if i said everything correctly, please tell me what you think of this explanation.
  • Anglican
    I'm sure this must have been dealt with, but since we hold that Our Lord gave Himself up voluntarily to save mankind, was Judas not just a means to that end?

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Anglian link=topic=5968.msg79789#msg79789 date=1196357345]
    I'm sure this must have been dealt with, but since we hold that Our Lord gave Himself up voluntarily to save mankind, was Judas not just a means to that end?


    yes of course....but the problem here is that he killed himself instead of repenting on what he did. so now the great sin of betraying is held upon his shoulders with the fact that he killed himself.
    Judas wasn't the only one who denyd Christ. St. Peter did so 3 times, but he than became the head of the brothers and lead them, upon his repentence.....am sure you knew that Anglian...::)
  • Christ4LifeChrist4Life
    [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=5968.msg79771#msg79771 date=1196301754]
    i was just reading some exlanatory notes from the orthodox church on this topic and it turns out that we dont kno if judas ate the bread and wine, but we do know that the bread and wine did not convert to actual body and blood because Jesus did not yet die on the cross. So when he said this is my body and blood it was a symbol. Which is why he said "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." He meant im not going to drink this now, but when i am in my fathers kingdom i will drink it WITH YOU.. Not meaning in heaven ill drink it with you, but when this is all over, when you to partake of the body and blood I WILL partake of it WITH you meaning, i will be with you. But now, i will not be with you because i have not made the sacrifice yet. But when you do "do this in rememberance of me", i will do it with you also.... Not sure if my sources are 100% correct or if i said everything correctly, please tell me what you think of this explanation.


    I'm sorry but I beg to differ. I believe the bread and wine at the Last Supper was indeed, the body and blood of our Lord. He wouldn't have said for if it wasn't. Furthermore, if it wasn't the actual body and blood, all our arguments concerning that fact that it wasn't just symbolic, but was an actual conduction of the sacrament would be null and void.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Christ4Life link=topic=5968.msg79811#msg79811 date=1196384994]
    [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=5968.msg79771#msg79771 date=1196301754]
    i was just reading some exlanatory notes from the orthodox church on this topic and it turns out that we dont kno if judas ate the bread and wine, but we do know that the bread and wine did not convert to actual body and blood because Jesus did not yet die on the cross. So when he said this is my body and blood it was a symbol. Which is why he said "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." He meant im not going to drink this now, but when i am in my fathers kingdom i will drink it WITH YOU.. Not meaning in heaven ill drink it with you, but when this is all over, when you to partake of the body and blood I WILL partake of it WITH you meaning, i will be with you. But now, i will not be with you because i have not made the sacrifice yet. But when you do "do this in rememberance of me", i will do it with you also.... Not sure if my sources are 100% correct or if i said everything correctly, please tell me what you think of this explanation.


    I'm sorry but I beg to differ. I believe the bread and wine at the Last Supper was indeed, the body and blood of our Lord. He wouldn't have said for if it wasn't. Furthermore, if it wasn't the actual body and blood, all our arguments concerning that fact that it wasn't just symbolic, but was an actual conduction of the sacrament would be null and void.


    i actually agree with him.
  • Anglican
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5968.msg79790#msg79790 date=1196357692]
    [quote author=Anglian link=topic=5968.msg79789#msg79789 date=1196357345]
    I'm sure this must have been dealt with, but since we hold that Our Lord gave Himself up voluntarily to save mankind, was Judas not just a means to that end?


    yes of course....but the problem here is that he killed himself instead of repenting on what he did. so now the great sin of betraying is held upon his shoulders with the fact that he killed himself.
    Judas wasn't the only one who denyd Christ. St. Peter did so 3 times, but he than became the head of the brothers and lead them, upon his repentence.....am sure you knew that Anglian...::)


    Dear Minagir,

    Thank you. The treatment of Judas by the early Church is an interesting one. One of the fragments of the writings of PAPIAS OF HIERAPOLIS records this:

    1  From Apollinarius of Laodicea. `Judas did not die by hanging, but lived on, having been cut down before he was suffocated. And the Acts of the Apostles show this, that falling headlong he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out._ This fact is related more clearly by Papias, the disciple of John, in the fourth (book) of the Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord as follows: --
    2  "Judas walked about in this world a terrible example of impiety; his flesh swollen to such an extent that, where a waggon can pass with ease, he was not able to pass, no, not even the mass of his head merely. They say that his eyelids swelled to such an extent that he could not see the light at all, while as for his eyes they were not visible even by a physician looking through an instrument, so far had they sunk from the surface.  His genital was larger and presented a more repugnant sight than has ever been seen; and through it there seeped from every part of the body a procession of pus and worms to his shame, even as he relieved himself."'
    3 After suffering an agony of pain and punishment, he finally went, as they say it, to his own place; and because of the horrible smell the area has been deserted and no one has lived there up until now; in fact, even to the present no one can go by that place without holding his nose.  This was because the discharge from his body was so great and
    spread so far over the ground."'

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Anglian link=topic=5968.msg79840#msg79840 date=1196426580]
    Dear Minagir,

    Thank you. The treatment of Judas by the early Church is an interesting one. One of the fragments of the writings of PAPIAS OF HIERAPOLIS records this:

    1  From Apollinarius of Laodicea. `Judas did not die by hanging, but lived on, having been cut down before he was suffocated. And the Acts of the Apostles show this, that falling headlong he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out._ This fact is related more clearly by Papias, the disciple of John, in the fourth (book) of the Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord as follows: --
    2  "Judas walked about in this world a terrible example of impiety; his flesh swollen to such an extent that, where a waggon can pass with ease, he was not able to pass, no, not even the mass of his head merely. They say that his eyelids swelled to such an extent that he could not see the light at all, while as for his eyes they were not visible even by a physician looking through an instrument, so far had they sunk from the surface.  His genital was larger and presented a more repugnant sight than has ever been seen; and through it there seeped from every part of the body a procession of pus and worms to his shame, even as he relieved himself."'
    3 After suffering an agony of pain and punishment, he finally went, as they say it, to his own place; and because of the horrible smell the area has been deserted and no one has lived there up until now; in fact, even to the present no one can go by that place without holding his nose.  This was because the discharge from his body was so great and
    spread so far over the ground."'

    In Christ,

    Anglian


    what a scary description
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    so than.. what did Jesus mean when he said "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom"

    Does any one have any explanation for this verse its really bothering me that i cant find one.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=5968.msg79897#msg79897 date=1196527431]
    so than.. what did Jesus mean when he said "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom"

    Does any one have any explanation for this verse its really bothering me that i cant find one.


    that the next time they literally drink wine together is when they all go to heaven in the place where he prepared for them... in His Father's house.
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    you see, i was thinking that, but i think its deeper than that. Why would he not drink or eat the body and blood while on earth. But at the end of the world when we are in heaven drink it than. Because at the end of the world are we still gonna be doing communion? I doubt it. Because there are no more sins and we will already be living WITH the Lord. So why NOT drink it here on earth, but afterwards in heaven. What was the symbol of not eating the body and drinking the blood when he was on earth.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=5968.msg79904#msg79904 date=1196557323]
    you see, i was thinking that, but i think its deeper than that. Why would he not drink or eat the body and blood while on earth. But at the end of the world when we are in heaven drink it than. Because at the end of the world are we still gonna be doing communion? I doubt it. Because there are no more sins and we will already be living WITH the Lord. So why NOT drink it here on earth, but afterwards in heaven. What was the symbol of not eating the body and drinking the blood when he was on earth.


    so He can show you the sacrament we have now. it's the same as giving HIS body and blood before He actually dies. i don't doubt that there is deeper meaning.... 
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