Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
are we all saints?
okay, the protestants r really starting to bother me... they show no respect for any saints even though the bible says even the angels honour saint mary, and they say we are all saint...my question is... ARE WE ALL SAINTS? I know were definetly not saints in comparison to saints like St george, but why do they always say that? And why do they show literally ZERO respect for the saints?
Comments
Forever,
Coptic Servent
PK
Do we all reach a VERY high level of spirituality through fasting and prayer?
Do we all deny ourselves for the sake of our Lord?
No.
Therefore, we are not all saints.
Do we all make miracles?
Not all saints perform miracles, so technically that can't be a reason
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6119.msg81287#msg81287 date=1200953971]
Do we all reach a VERY high level of spirituality through fasting and prayer?
I know some people that are very good at that, so they can't be saints?
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6119.msg81287#msg81287 date=1200953971]
Do we all deny ourselves for the sake of our Lord?
Some people do, some people don't! Sorry Severus, but I feel that you are stereotyping a lot of people, and you really can't because most people aren't like that, or are like that!
Forever,
Coptic Servent
Not all saints perform miracles, so technically that can't be a reason
Ok, but the majority do... Not as strongly as the saints did when they were on earth.
Again, they do not say, lock themselves up in a room for 40 days for being sinners, or put dust into their eyes for lusting, and so on.
Forever,
Coptic Servent
However, as we know, the Church also have sinners. Judas Iscariot, a Bishop in today's terminology was a thief and a blasphemer against the Holy Ghost. St. Paul's disciple Demas also left the faith. We know of the couple from the Church who tried to trick not St. Peter, but even the Holy Ghost and died. We know that the Apostles were not perfect either, though great Saints and Martyrs they truly are indeed. St. Paul had confrontations with St. Mark and St. Peter. We know Moses was once impatient, we know Lot was drunk, we know Jacob showed favouritism, we know Samson was not prudent, we know King David was an adulterer and murderer- they are still part of the Church, yet we know they all had major failings, yet ascribe them to holiness.
Even then, we know from Christ, that compared the Kingdom of Heaven to the Parable of the Dragnet (Matt. 13:47-50). that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind" demonstrating in allegorical terms the various human intentions and differences.
According to St. John Chrysostom, "the Saint is he who participates in the Faith, spotless is he who leads a clean life."
As Origen had perceived, "many of the sinners relate to Jesus as their Lord and in them there is the Holy Spirit." (Dogmatique v. II ).
Thus, we are saints in as much as we are called to be saints. Just as we are saved, being saved and will be saved, are we saints.
However, some of those called to be saints had departed from the faith.
Saint literally comes from the word Holy. We are only Holy in as much as we are sanctified by Grace. It is by the pursuit of God's righteousness. It is being in communion with Christ and the Church through Christ.
Remember the parable of the Vine? We are as branches grafted onto the Vine, which is Christ, and we are in "communion" with each other as long as we are grafted into the Vine. And we are only receiving the nutrients of the Vine as long as we remain grafted in alignment. If we do not produce fruit, we are thrown away.
The Church, with hindsight, have seen by their works that they were Christ's disciples. As Christ said to the Disciples, " This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."
It is not difficult to show that it is just as fit to replace in this context disciples with saints, as all those called to be saints are to follow Christ.
So, we are saints in as much as remain faithful and grafted to the True Vine, leading a life of repentance and faith. However, when we become fruitless; when we follow the way of the flesh; when we remove ourselves from the Vine, we also disinherit the call to be saints.
As the author of Hebrews, St. Paul, said, " For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” " (Hebrews 11:26-30 NKJV)
So, the people who have "insulted the Spirit of grace", obviously have rejected the calling, for this is the same Spirit who "called them to be Saints" in the first instance.
If I insulted my employer who calls me to jobs, do you think I would still have my job? Remember, "The LORD will judge His people".
So, again, we are saints in as much as we fulfill our calling. But those who have departed, and remain part of the Church, we know by their fruits that they have fulfilled their calling, and it is thus sufficient to call them "Saints" in the fullness of the word.
If we assume the title ourselves, and are sining willfully, think about the stern warning that the Apostle St Paul gives, in which I bolded. We would be those, as I placed in italics, "will he be thought worthy".
Many of our fellow brothers and sisters have gently (I would hope) admonished (which is something we must do, so take it with perserverance and love) recklessly assuming that title. And for good reasons.
As St. Paul urged the Ephesians,
" I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to lead a life worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism." (Eph. 4:1-5)
Whilst in unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, we are Saints. If we are in communion with the saints in "one body and one Spirit", we are Saints. However, we must always endeavour. When we do not, we are not leading the life worthy of the calling. And thus, not all are saints, because many sinners, like me, can not with full consciousness say that I always endeavour.
GB.
However, this is not logical. We practice and teach what has been consistent for at least 1400 years, and many of the things in to which they call to question is traceable to the times of teh Apostles, or the time of St. Clement and first few generations. We have been consistent.
It is they who have the burden of proof, and need to substantiate their novel claims.
I have not read one decent article addressing their assumption that the Scriptures is all they need; their perposterious notion of "Biblical Christianity". Christianity authored and authorised the Bible. It is the Book of the Church. It had never been since its canonisation in the hands of laymen and open to their interpretation.
In Apostolic times, it was the pastors that derived authority from the Apostles that shephered the flock- not any Tom, Dick and Harry. St. Paul had to prove himself in one of his Epistles, that he had seen St. Peter and that he allowed him into the ministry. Not anyone was allowed into the Presbytery, but it was the Church which allowed them into the Ministry.
Thus, it is the Protestants that must substantiate their "novel", and by that "new" and completely foreign ideas to Apostolic Christianity (in which we are a clear canditate of being a faithful successor of).
As an established faith, if you will, that has existed before the heterodox introduction to the Church of Rome, it is them that should be defending their ideas- not us.
Corporate fasting is tracaeble even to the old Church before the New Covenant. Icons and veneration of holy objects are tracaeble to the time of Moses; think of the Arc of the Covenant. There are things that are not in the Bible, but it is Our Church that wrote the Bible, that authorised the Bible, and has taught from and through the Bible. This is the same institution that they call heretics? Does that seem logical?
But I know what you're talking about... when protestants say that... they read the bible out of context. i like what other people said about that in this forum.. i myself am not very good at responding to such comments coming from protestants and their grade school theology. when they say things like that... I can't help but think to myself that unlike what they think, salvation and all of christianity cannot be explained simply in pamphlet form statements. These matters are not black and white issues like protestants make them out to be. Salvation and all of Christianity isn't achieved in saying a few words. It's a lifelong journey. It can't be summed up. It's something that as we get to know ourselves and seek God, we are taught more and more along the way.
Please correct me if i'm wrong but i believe that St. Paul called the Corinthians a multitude of saints, or something along those lines.
Again PLEASE correct me if im wrong
God Bless
May the prayers Of Pope Kyrollos be with us all Amen
Please Pray for me.