Sola Fide

Meena_Ameen

As many of you know already for the past couple of weeks ive really been trying to gather information on how to defend the orthodox faith when it comes to protestant doctrine and i find that one of the biggest errors in the  protestant doctrine is sola fide, made by martin luther. That doctrine means being saved by faith alone and not works. I have 1 question however... in the bible, when James is clearly statiing that works and faith are both required to get attain salvation... was the works hes talking about things like the sacrements, or works as in being a good person? Because I think hes talking about works as in sacrements because he says "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" if anyone has any comments or feels that i am wrong, or can provide even stronger evidence than this verse i found please do so.. I want as much info as possible... BY the way.. I was watching a video on youtube about a protestant sermon on sola fide and i am going to take the time to make my own video and will answer this person back.. but before i do so i was wondering if anyone could help at all with any information that would be useful in answering back to this person....



thank you everyone, God bless

Unknown

There is a book by HH Pope Shenouda about this subject and also (or another book) about immediate salvation (in a moment / instantaneous salvation). Anyway the titles are not exact but it's on this same subject.

I like this video by a RC Christian (I may not agree with other videos of his though):
Salvation is NOT by faith alone

GBU

clay

There is no shortage of literature that has debunked the "sola fide" idea. The problem with the whole debate is there is this rather Legalistic way that pervades their thinking. It complicates the relationship of
- faith and works
- salvation and sanctification
- Christian life and Sacramental life
- the unmerited Grace of the Father and our role in Salvation
And their doctrines thus become rather superficial.

For instance, the Israelites as they departed from Egypt were being perused by the pagan Egyptians (c.f. Ex. 14). As the heathen adversaries closed in on them, St. Moses prayed(c.f. v15) and the Sea divided (v.21) and a partition of cloud (v19) between 'the Church' and the adversary flourished.

In the instant the waters parted they were saved. But, actually they were being saved as they crossed. However, they will be saved once they crossed the end.
All three sentences above are true. If you disagree, think hard about it. In the same manner we should view our Salvation. The gate that leads to the Kingdom of Heaven, is narrow and difficult. However, it is by grace we are on the path to the gate- and this is not by our merit. By Grace we are being guided on this path and have the gate within our sight. By Grace we have the strength to walk it. By Grace we can finish it.

The Israelites were complaining to Moses and God just moments before Moses reassured them that Salvation is near(v. 10-12). So, they didn’t merit the promise in which Moses gave them. But they still needed to capitilise the opportunity presented, as once the Angel of God no longer held back the heathens, those who took the Salvation casually and was lost behind would be caught up, and killed.

Even once they were saved, many transgressed again, and were devoured by the Earth(Ex. 32:28)

But in all that, we could be in denial that we are on the right path and go nowhere, and hence whatever Grace we had being in Church has been nullified. If we disobey the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we also make Grace to no effect. Strength is great, but if we don't bother to flex, it is not used.

There is a synergy between the Grace of God and our will. As Christ united His Divinity and His Humanity to the one Incarnate nature of the Logos, we must unite ourselves with Him. And herein lays the importance of the Holy Mysteries in which we participate in the Divine Nature.

Grace is often described in legalistic terms. It seems almost like a certificate one gains instantly once someone believes.

Some Protestants, like Lutherans, recognize that Salvation does not occur in a moment. The problem here is faith and works have been divided. Without works, faith is dead. St. James describes this eloquently the synergy between faith and works, as body and spirit (Jas 2:26).
What St. Paul was writing about was the Mosaic Law. It had several purposes:
a) reveal the differences between good and evil
b) make the world accountable to God (Rom. 3:19)
c) manifest sin (Rom. 3:20)
d) be a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:24) (These points were found in article in the Orthodox Study Bible)

However, not opposed to God's grace, without faith in the Resurrection it cannot be done. Once we transgress the Law, we hold the guilt forever, and as we sin every day, it is not possible that anyone (well at least myself) can be counted righteous. Even if I stop sinning, the fact I transgressed yesterday means I cannot be righteous. Also, the Mosaic Law (which is what St. Paul is usually referring to when he says Law) cannot save because those before Moses were still counted as righteous. 
Even David, who was an adulterer and murderer would gain Salvation, because he had faith in the Salvation that would be brought by his ancestor.

The Law of faith (Rom. 3:27), however, is the cooperation between our faith-fulness with God's. It alone is the means we attain God's righteousness.
The whole discussion of faith verses works is foreign , for faith and Grace were both seen as dynamic qualities, something we are to embrace in our life.

True, it is not the deeds that merited our salvation- it is the faith in which we did them with- it is by following the law of faith- it is by living in the law of Christ.

Christ fulfilled the Law (Gal. 2:21) and thus the demands are no longer impressed, but it is a prefigurement- a sign post of the righteousness of God. And we are told that we are to strive for God’s righteousness.

By grace we are brought to the New Covenant with Him. We who believe are granted the ability and the strength and the guidance to enter the gate to His Kingdom. With these things we merited not, we must embrace, we must struggle and we must walk. By faith in the Resurrection, we have found reason to persue God’s righteousness- for if we cannot be saved- let’s eat and drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

Notice, St. Paul uses all tenses to describe salvation. In Rom 5:9 “we shall be saved from wrath through Him”, and by the Parable of the Vine we know we are only in Him as long as we bear fruit!

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage”- Gal 5:1
The yoke of bondage, is to have faith in the Law and not in the blood of Christ. It includes:
1) Circumcision as a prerequisite (v.2)
2) Obligation to follow the Law (v. 3)
3) Being justified by law, establishing it without the ‘grace and truth’ of Christ. (v.4)
4) It is bondage to sin (v. 1)
5) It is dependence upon the flesh- when we have the Holy Mysteries revealed by our Lord!
6) It is alienation from Christ and from grace (v. 4)

Instead, Christ’s yoke is life in the Spirit and it includes
a) Regeneration by Baptism (3:27), the circumcision of the heart rather than the flesh
b) Obedience to Christ and growth in perfection (Matt. 5:48)
c) Being justified by grace, God’s righteousness which becomes ours
d) Freedom or liberty from the power of sin (v. 1)
e) Dependence upon the Spirit (v. 5)
f) Access to the perfect and glorified humanity of Christ
g) Union with Christ and the grace of God. (Again this is a summary given in the Orthodox Study Bible)

Faith works through things like the spirit works through the body. It is a relationship we should not attempt to explain. Otherwise, we would probably hear

"You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth."

It is by faith, we believe the truth, and by works we obey the truth. Fussing over the difference- well-the answer is simple- living faith alone saves.

clay

[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=6129.msg81415#msg81415 date=1201170062]
There is a book by HH Pope Shenouda about this subject and also (or another book) about immediate salvation (in a moment / instantaneous salvation). Anyway the titles are not exact but it's on this same subject.

I like this video by a RC Christian (I may not agree with other videos of his though):
Salvation is NOT by faith alone

GBU


I apologise, but I am going to comment on a video I have not watched. The problem with reading/listening to Roman Catholics response to this is because it is their thought in which fostered this "Reformist thinking" in the first place. Their "Scholastic" era made them rather Legalistic, and hence their dogma is defined in a spirit that is foreign to us, and the Apostles and the Church Fathers. Their conclusions are sound, but to reap in this thought process is to open yourselves to  the doubt and misunderstanding of the Legalistic West.

Unknown

Thank you clay for your reply. Sorry I need more time to read it all but I will tonight.
As for the video I put the link because I had watched it and the guy uses the Sola Scriptura principle: by mentioning only verses from the Bible to resolve the issue - and quite elegantly.

GBU

Unknown

Thank you clay you covered all facets in your reply.
GBU

gigglyshy

[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6129.msg81413#msg81413 date=1201161971]
As many of you know already for the past couple of weeks ive really been trying to gather information on how to defend the orthodox faith when it comes to protestant doctrine and i find that one of the biggest errors in the  protestant doctrine is sola fide, made by martin luther. That doctrine means being saved by faith alone and not works. I have 1 question however... in the bible, when James is clearly statiing that works and faith are both required to get attain salvation... was the works hes talking about things like the sacrements, or works as in being a good person? Because I think hes talking about works as in sacrements because he says "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" if anyone has any comments or feels that i am wrong, or can provide even stronger evidence than this verse i found please do so.. I want as much info as possible... BY the way.. I was watching a video on youtube about a protestant sermon on sola fide and i am going to take the time to make my own video and will answer this person back.. but before i do so i was wondering if anyone could help at all with any information that would be useful in answering back to this person....



thank you everyone, God bless


For talking to protestants about stuff... I like this website:

http://www.orthodox.net/articles/orthodox-mind.html

this long article, from an Eastern Orthodox Website does a good job at showing the difference between an Orthodox mind and a protestant mind.

Unknown

This is a very useful page treating the subject of Justification by Faith for the COC servants:
http://www.coptichymns.net/module-library-viewpub-tid-1-pid-568.html

I wish I could find an ebook copy of the Servant's Manual.

GBU

Basant Tawfik

If the people won't listen then u show them by ur actions the coptic orthodox faith!!! ok!!?? u did ur part u explained but they didn't listen so u show them by ur actions!!