Not that I know much detail on the topic, but after reading some of the catholic doctrine on purgatory...it kind of makes sense on some levels... let me explain
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those
"who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). " (As defined on catholic.com....
http://catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)
I know we have all asked the question when we were younger to our parents or our sunday school teachers, "What happens if we don't confess a nanosecond before we die??" because we all know...
"The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven" (Rev. 21:27)
And the usual response (atleast to me) is that if we were truly repentant then God will accept there repentence although they are still guilty without the need of confession and communion.
Now the catholic dogma seems to solve this problem apparent problem, but takes it a few steps further in defining which sins let gives you hope in purgatory (venial and mortal)....howeever if we removed this boundary line of sins, do you think the dogma can hold?
Basically what I am saying is that, we die in sins for sure no matter what....And nothing can enter heaven unclean...see the gap that a dogma similar to purgatory (but not exact to the catholic version) can fill?
This is just a thought that has been running around in my brain for some time now....thoughts any1?
Comments
The church is against purgatory
GB
Tony
Purgatory is a very very old doctrine. It existed before the Third Council in the Church of Rome, and was actually discussed on some level before the official Third Ecunemical Council.
Citations, please.
Not that I know much detail on the topic, but after reading some of the catholic doctrine on purgatory...it kind of makes sense on some levels... let me explain
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). " (As defined on catholic.com....http://catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)
I know we have all asked the question when we were younger to our parents or our sunday school teachers, "What happens if we don't confess a nanosecond before we die??" because we all know...
"The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven" (Rev. 21:27)
And the usual response (atleast to me) is that if we were truly repentant then God will accept there repentence although they are still guilty without the need of confession and communion.
Now the catholic dogma seems to solve this problem apparent problem, but takes it a few steps further in defining which sins let gives you hope in purgatory (venial and mortal)....howeever if we removed this boundary line of sins, do you think the dogma can hold?
Basically what I am saying is that, we die in sins for sure no matter what....And nothing can enter heaven unclean...see the gap that a dogma similar to purgatory (but not exact to the catholic version) can fill?
This is just a thought that has been running around in my brain for some time now....thoughts any1?
Duck do you think it is wrong when someone makes up something? Like that is not in the Holy Bible completely. I love that you have citations but you never mentioned '"The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven" (Rev. 21:27)'. The Bible does not have this at all in it, the word "hell" however is mentioned in the Bible many times. Check this out because i can't put all the verses they are many: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=hell&version1=50&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no
Heaven is of course mentioned and i don't think i need to direct any one to those verse, but purgatory is never mentioned once, and so far nothing you have posted makes purgatory sound right. Also the catholic church to answer the question "What happens if we don't confess a nanosecond before we die??" Could find nothing else. Our concept makes more since because God knows if your heart is with him or not, and if seriously you have repented but died without any warning (like being extremely sick) then God well base it of what God knows and not we want God to do.
Remember Arius he took direct quotes from the Bible but when you sat down and read the Bible as a whole that wouldn't make sense, the same with purgatory nothing is backing it up. The only thing is the Catholic Church's tradition which we don't agree with, because IT IS NOT BIBLICAL AT ALL
Sorry If i sounded mean forgive me.
Your Brother In Christ Jesus
http://www.suscopts.org/literature/literature.php?subaction=showfull&id=1084916893&archive=&start_from=&ucat=3&;
It is a clear short explanation. Full details can be found in the famous book "Why Do We Reject Purgatory?" by HH the Pope Shenouda III.
Yes it's links day!
GBU
[quote author=duck link=topic=6158.msg81704#msg81704 date=1201884517]
Not that I know much detail on the topic, but after reading some of the catholic doctrine on purgatory...it kind of makes sense on some levels... let me explain
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). " (As defined on catholic.com....http://catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)
I know we have all asked the question when we were younger to our parents or our sunday school teachers, "What happens if we don't confess a nanosecond before we die??" because we all know...
"The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven" (Rev. 21:27)
And the usual response (atleast to me) is that if we were truly repentant then God will accept there repentence although they are still guilty without the need of confession and communion.
Now the catholic dogma seems to solve this problem apparent problem, but takes it a few steps further in defining which sins let gives you hope in purgatory (venial and mortal)....howeever if we removed this boundary line of sins, do you think the dogma can hold?
Basically what I am saying is that, we die in sins for sure no matter what....And nothing can enter heaven unclean...see the gap that a dogma similar to purgatory (but not exact to the catholic version) can fill?
This is just a thought that has been running around in my brain for some time now....thoughts any1?
Duck do you think it is wrong when someone makes up something? Like that is not in the Holy Bible completely. I love that you have citations but you never mentioned '"The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven" (Rev. 21:27)'. The Bible does not have this at all in it, the word "hell" however is mentioned in the Bible many times. Check this out because i can't put all the verses they are many: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=hell&version1=50&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no
Heaven is of course mentioned and i don't think i need to direct any one to those verse, but purgatory is never mentioned once, and so far nothing you have posted makes purgatory sound right. Also the catholic church to answer the question "What happens if we don't confess a nanosecond before we die??" Could find nothing else. Our concept makes more since because God knows if your heart is with him or not, and if seriously you have repented but died without any warning (like being extremely sick) then God well base it of what God knows and not we want God to do.
Remember Arius he took direct quotes from the Bible but when you sat down and read the Bible as a whole that wouldn't make sense, the same with purgatory nothing is backing it up. The only thing is the Catholic Church's tradition which we don't agree with, because IT IS NOT BIBLICAL AT ALL
Sorry If i sounded mean forgive me.
Your Brother In Christ Jesus
Well to say something is non-biblical is very weak...we believe the sacraments are biblical, protestants don't, the information is there what we conclude is simply how we interpret the data (through the fathers) and what we believe to be true, so by you saying it isn't biblical proves nothing really, just your own internal subjective bias. Also, just because the word "purgatory" is not in the Bible doesn't mean that the idea of it isn't...Christ never stated directly "I am God worship me" but we can see he implied that emphaticaly in various passages..., also the word "Trinity" isn't in the bible but the idea is but that doesn't make it biblical...
The whole doctrine of the Incarnation by St. athanasius was extrapolated from the predicament God was in to save humanity. He concluded that Christ HAD to have been fully God and fully Human in order to save us. Nowhere will you find all the intricacies of the incarnation in the bible...but that doesn't mean its not Biblical. St. athananasius deduced using logic (with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) the dogma which we all accept...The means in which athanasius concluded Christ's nature is the same means I am trying to get at....
Assumptions
1) It is Biblical that nothing impure can enter heaven
2) We will all die in sins
Hypothesis:
An intermediary place from when we die to "clean" (whatever that means, I am not sure) us to enter heaven
To say God will read our hearts and forgive us if we are truly repentant, in my opinion makes Christ's death worthless...why couldn't God just forgive us then if we were truly repentant on earth? What is the point of Christ's death if God can make an exception in removing our sins? If he can remove sins w/o the death of Christ for some, then he could have done it for all, leaving Christ's death meaning nothing.
2 Maccabees 12: 41-45:
"So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin."
Then we read
Mt. 12: 31-32: “Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
Quotes from the fathers (Taken from catholic.com)
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out" (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).
Gregory of Nyssa
"If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire" (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).
John Chrysostom
"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them" (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
"Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment" (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).
"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire" (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).
There are other quotes which I ommitted...but that pretty much sums it up
The Early Fathers' teachings are extremely important in the sense they edify, deepen the understanding and strengthening of the Faith, answer heresies and refute the stubborn.
But any newly introduced dogma will be highly criticized even if a few Early Fathers gave it some homage. Plus some of the Fathers were indeed practicing philosophers, this alone is an important factor orienting against considering any out of tradition teaching(s) - let alone inventing new dogmas. The sequel of this fearful menace of purgatory is blackmail: through the injustice and the abuse of so called indulgences - something that triggered the appearance of early Protestants.
GBU
The story told by Our Lord, from His OWN Utterance, that of: 'Lazarus and the Rich Man' is specifically to the contrary of the concept of "Purgatory".
Purgatory is a scam. It is an extension of Roman paganism entering the Roman Church, no different from a lot of other traditions and 'add-ons'.
The Roman Church just does not want to let go of the Roman Empire and the Roman deities.
I think the main reason that the Protest-ants are so turned off by becoming adherents to a true Mother and Apostolic Church, is because of all this non-sense. Including using terms of: "patron saint of...", etc.
My comment is: "The Roman Empire is dead. R.I.P.".
It is nonsense.
It is nonsense.
It is nonsense.
Do not waste your time with the notion. There are too many things to learn and enjoy in the Church beyond this nonsense.
His exposition is pure and magnificent. In my opinion, there is no parallel to him in our era.
He is amazing!
Besides Purgatory is no where in the Holy Bible, the sacrements and other traditions are atleast mentioned. Beside if there is a purgatory then what is the purpose of the Paradise and hades? Why didn't Jesus say "Today you will be with me in The Kingdom instead of the Paradise? Obviously, Purgatory is a big hoax! And it is not found in the sayings of the desert fathers (some foreign teachers--esp. Origin the teacher whose soem teaching were anathematized-- and very few fathers ever even mentioned it)
Besides the words of St. John Chrisistome could be interpreted differently depending on many factors.
Beside if there is a purgatory then what is the purpose of the Paradise and hades? Why didn't Jesus say "Today you will be with me in The Kingdom instead of the Paradise?
Besides the words of St. John Chrisistome could be interpreted differently depending on many factors.
That's what I thought of when you guys brought up the term purgatory, is really what is the purpose of paradise and hades then, why do we even need it if there is such a thing as purgatory?? I completely agree with you Zakhary 100%!!
Forever,
Coptic Servent
[quote author=Anba Bishoy link=topic=6158.msg81883#msg81883 date=1202325237]
[quote author=duck link=topic=6158.msg81704#msg81704 date=1201884517]
Not that I know much detail on the topic, but after reading some of the catholic doctrine on purgatory...it kind of makes sense on some levels... let me explain
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). " (As defined on catholic.com....http://catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)
I know we have all asked the question when we were younger to our parents or our sunday school teachers, "What happens if we don't confess a nanosecond before we die??" because we all know...
"The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven" (Rev. 21:27)
And the usual response (atleast to me) is that if we were truly repentant then God will accept there repentence although they are still guilty without the need of confession and communion.
Now the catholic dogma seems to solve this problem apparent problem, but takes it a few steps further in defining which sins let gives you hope in purgatory (venial and mortal)....howeever if we removed this boundary line of sins, do you think the dogma can hold?
Basically what I am saying is that, we die in sins for sure no matter what....And nothing can enter heaven unclean...see the gap that a dogma similar to purgatory (but not exact to the catholic version) can fill?
This is just a thought that has been running around in my brain for some time now....thoughts any1?
Duck do you think it is wrong when someone makes up something? Like that is not in the Holy Bible completely. I love that you have citations but you never mentioned '"The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven" (Rev. 21:27)'. The Bible does not have this at all in it, the word "hell" however is mentioned in the Bible many times. Check this out because i can't put all the verses they are many: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=hell&version1=50&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no
Heaven is of course mentioned and i don't think i need to direct any one to those verse, but purgatory is never mentioned once, and so far nothing you have posted makes purgatory sound right. Also the catholic church to answer the question "What happens if we don't confess a nanosecond before we die??" Could find nothing else. Our concept makes more since because God knows if your heart is with him or not, and if seriously you have repented but died without any warning (like being extremely sick) then God well base it of what God knows and not we want God to do.
Remember Arius he took direct quotes from the Bible but when you sat down and read the Bible as a whole that wouldn't make sense, the same with purgatory nothing is backing it up. The only thing is the Catholic Church's tradition which we don't agree with, because IT IS NOT BIBLICAL AT ALL
Sorry If i sounded mean forgive me.
Your Brother In Christ Jesus
Well to say something is non-biblical is very weak...we believe the sacraments are biblical, protestants don't, the information is there what we conclude is simply how we interpret the data (through the fathers) and what we believe to be true, so by you saying it isn't biblical proves nothing really, just your own internal subjective bias. Also, just because the word "purgatory" is not in the Bible doesn't mean that the idea of it isn't...Christ never stated directly "I am God worship me" but we can see he implied that emphaticaly in various passages..., also the word "Trinity" isn't in the bible but the idea is but that doesn't make it biblical...
The whole doctrine of the Incarnation by St. athanasius was extrapolated from the predicament God was in to save humanity. He concluded that Christ HAD to have been fully God and fully Human in order to save us. Nowhere will you find all the intricacies of the incarnation in the bible...but that doesn't mean its not Biblical. St. athananasius deduced using logic (with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) the dogma which we all accept...The means in which athanasius concluded Christ's nature is the same means I am trying to get at....
Assumptions
1) It is Biblical that nothing impure can enter heaven
2) We will all die in sins
Hypothesis:
An intermediary place from when we die to "clean" (whatever that means, I am not sure) us to enter heaven
To say God will read our hearts and forgive us if we are truly repentant, in my opinion makes Christ's death worthless...why couldn't God just forgive us then if we were truly repentant on earth? What is the point of Christ's death if God can make an exception in removing our sins? If he can remove sins w/o the death of Christ for some, then he could have done it for all, leaving Christ's death meaning nothing.
2 Maccabees 12: 41-45:
"So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin."
Then we read
Mt. 12: 31-32: “Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
Quotes from the fathers (Taken from catholic.com)
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out" (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).
Gregory of Nyssa
"If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire" (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).
John Chrysostom
"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them" (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
"Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment" (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).
"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire" (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).
There are other quotes which I ommitted...but that pretty much sums it up
Well ok. The Bible verses you mentioned can mean many things. The 2 Maccabees 12: 41-45, really could be interpreted like this: The atonement which he made was fulfilled by Christ because He was the one that saved all the dead since they all went to hades.
Now the Mt. 12: 31-32 could mean that niether hear nor in hell, because remember you cannot be forgiven and return to God in hell.
Purgatory is a big deal. Even Catholics now are going away from this thought.
Besides Purgatory is no where in the Holy Bible, the sacrements and other traditions are atleast mentioned. Beside if there is a purgatory then what is the purpose of the Paradise and hades? Why didn't Jesus say "Today you will be with me in The Kingdom instead of the Paradise? Obviously, Purgatory is a big hoax! And it is not found in the sayings of the desert fathers (some foreign teachers--esp. Origin the teacher whose soem teaching were anathematized-- and very few fathers ever even mentioned it)
Besides the words of St. John Chrisistome could be interpreted differently depending on many factors.
You should actually read duck's post.
Secondly, Catholics like us have increasing influence of Protestant thinking, and that coult account for the trend away from Purgatory.
Thirdly, the Right Hand Theif proves nothing. Purgatory is described as a temporal purging of sins; the time taken is not included in their doctrine.
You should actually read duck's post.
Secondly, Catholics like us have increasing influence of Protestant thinking, and that coult account for the trend away from Purgatory.
Thirdly, the Right Hand Theif proves nothing. Purgatory is described as a temporal purging of sins; the time taken is not included in their doctrine.
First the post by duck does not really prove much: the fathers he mentions are not desert fathers, but are scholars whose words were told to other educated scholars, so we have to be very careful in their interpretation.
Second, if Catholics themselves (the ones who started it) now are going toward denying it, then that is a big clue that it was made up in the first place.
Third, you did not answer my questions
1. What is the purpose of Paradise and Hades if purgatory exists?
2. Why did Christ send the right hand theif to Paradise if it was not the correct waiting place for the just?
The fire described is only imagery. Hades are for the willfully disobedient, who have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.
Paradise is the temporal place before Judgment.
2. Again just because Christ said "today", does not mean it was the first place the theif went. We do not know the heart of this man, but it looks like he repented almost completely; look at the bravery and conviction it would take to confess that the naked, wounded, pitable man handing by the tree beside you is a King.
I am not justifying Purgatory, I am just saying many of our objections have no basis.
Read: http://catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/purgatorist.htm
[quote author=clay link=topic=6158.msg82068#msg82068 date=1202783943]
You should actually read duck's post.
Secondly, Catholics like us have increasing influence of Protestant thinking, and that coult account for the trend away from Purgatory.
Thirdly, the Right Hand Theif proves nothing. Purgatory is described as a temporal purging of sins; the time taken is not included in their doctrine.
First the post by duck does not really prove much: the fathers he mentions are not desert fathers, but are scholars whose words were told to other educated scholars, so we have to be very careful in their interpretation.
Second, if Catholics themselves (the ones who started it) now are going toward denying it, then that is a big clue that it was made up in the first place.
Third, you did not answer my questions
1. What is the purpose of Paradise and Hades if purgatory exists?
2. Why did Christ send the right hand theif to Paradise if it was not the correct waiting place for the just?
Well its one thing to say my post doesn't prove anything, and its another thing to show it, please show it. Also, my argument doesn't rest solely on quotations from the fathers so please re-read. And if it was, then your argument isn't saying much anyhow, it's just opening up another debate as to what ideas we accept/reject from the Fathers.... My only point in bring up the Fathers was that the idea of purgatory existed long before the Roman Church made it official....And also, if a saying is from the Desert Fathers, then it is Golden? I don't understand why the desert fathers are untouchable (no offense to them or anything lol) ?
Second, please substantiate your claims, don't make an argument based on a rumor..The catholics are not renouncing their doctrine on purgatory:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/compen...um-ccc_en.html
210. What is purgatory?
1030-1031
1054
Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.
In my opinion, i think purgatory, like the website mentions, is an insult to the salvation made by Christ. We are saved by Christ alone. It is not by punishment that we are saved, but the blood of Christ which removed all punishment. His blood was more than enough to save us ENTIRELY. To say that purgatory exists is to say that The blood of our Lord Jesus wasnt suffient enough to say us completely, but rather we needed still to be a LITTLE punished. To say that is to say we can be saved by a lot of punishment. If we are saved by the blood of Jesus plus a little bit if punishment means that it would take a lot of punishment without the blood of Jesus to be saved. Which is also to say that Jesus didnt have to come at all and that people like abraham should have gone to "purgatory" for a long period of time before they could enter the kingdom of God.
You all know that God chooses when you die... Can you honestly sit their and believe that God would purposely try to screw u over so you have to suffer? For example.. A Man sins and repents and goes to confession, than he partakes of the Blood and Body of Christ and is completely healed... 1 day later his best friend gets hit by a car and he is so mad that he starts cussing, all of a sudden he gets hit by a car and dies... According to the Roman Catholic faith, this man would suffer a while in purgatory for the swearing he did where as if he were to die 1 day earlier immediatley after taking communion he would go straight to heaven, no suffering at all. Guys..... To say this is also to say that God is not fully Righteous in his judgment. This is now going into "WHY DIDNT GOD TAKE HIM 1 DAY BEFORE INSTEAD OF PURPOSELY WAITING FOR HIM TO SIN AND THAN SENDING HIM TO PURGATORY". Its pretty clear that the The Roman Catholic doctrine on Purgatory, which did not come striaght from the mouths of the apostles but was added later to the faith becuase is "made sense" actually insults God in more that one way. 1) Jesus Blood wasnt 100% sufficient enough to save us completely from our sins. 2) God is not 100% rightous in his judgement.
Here is a post from the site incase you havent read it Duck.
The Coptic Orthodox View on the Purgatory
1. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption
Roman Catholics believe that purgatory is a place where "we atone for our sins" while atonement is the work of our Lord Jesus Christ alone. The Basis of the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption is that man is incapable of paying for the Divine Justice no matter how much he does, he suffers, or is punished.
The Holy Bible says,
"Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed" (Rom 3:24-25)
"If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 Jn 2:1-2)
"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." (1 Jn 4:10)
2. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Salvation
Salvation is only by blood and only the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ is the only purge. "The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 Jn 1:7). 'All sin' refers to every kind of sin mentioned by the Catholics the mortal, the venial or any other. The only condition is repentance "confess our sins" "walk in the light" (1 Jn 1:7,9). St Paul says, "But with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb 9:12). Purgatory is an insult to the work of the Cross for we say that on the Cross appeared the Divine Love "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" (Jn 3:16) How would that love agree with the pain of purgatory for forgiven sins and unintentional sins?
To believe in the purgatory is to believe of a partial salvation as if Christ came to save us from the shame of sin not from its penalty.
3. Purgatory is against the sacrament of repentance
Repentance blots sin, God forgives it and does not remember it.
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. (Acts 3:19)
I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins. (Isa 44:22)
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, nailed to the cross. (Col 2:13,14).
I, even I, am He Who blots out transgressions for My own sake and I will not remember your sins. (Isa 43:25).
The Coptic Orthodox view on the Prayer for the Departed
We pray for those who departed from this world not because we believe in the purgatory but following St. Paul who prayed for Onesiphorus saying, "The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day" (2 Tim 1:18). In that Day meant in the Day of Judgment, as he said "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." (2 Tim 4:8) St. Paul was not asking for mercy in the purgatory but on the Day of Judgment when he stands before the Just Judge. We pray for the departure that God may grant them rest in the place of waiting for the Day of Judgment has not come yet. Those departed are awaiting without worry or unrest. The litany for the departed does not mention the purgatory at all. We pray saying, "Sustain them in a green pasture, by the water of rest in the paradise of joy, the place out of which grief, sorrow and groaning have fled away" This is definitely not the description of the purgatory for the purgatory contrarily is a place of grief, sorrow and groaning.
Our Church absolves the soul of the departed during the prayer. She absolves her from all the sins she committed while in the flesh. We say to God, 'this soul has departed from us absolved by the church. We do not retain any sin for her … we intercede for her for You O Lord know the weakness of man.
As if St Mary the Theotokos approves indulgences!
To those who believe in the purgatory: don't worry you may not suffer full time there is still hope. You could still buy your way out: acquire as many indulgences as you can (and keep them within reach all the time) or get yourself a plenary indulgence. Too unfortunate if your situation is similar to Our Lord Jesus Christ's, when he was born on Earth homeless and modest.
Or get this while it lasts. Best deal because there is no telling how long would anyone suffer in the purgatory or how much less time in the purgatory would anyone benefit from indulgences.
GBU
My thoughts exactly.
At the risk of sounding obnoxious, the link you inserted is similar to a coupon at an electronics store.
No wonder the Protest-ants are on the heals of the R.C.C. all the time to bite at them.
[quote author=clay link=topic=6158.msg82068#msg82068 date=1202783943]
Well its one thing to say my post doesn't prove anything, and its another thing to show it, please show it. Also, my argument doesn't rest solely on quotations from the fathers so please re-read. And if it was, then your argument isn't saying much anyhow, it's just opening up another debate as to what ideas we accept/reject from the Fathers.... My only point in bring up the Fathers was that the idea of purgatory existed long before the Roman Church made it official....And also, if a saying is from the Desert Fathers, then it is Golden? I don't understand why the desert fathers are untouchable (no offense to them or anything lol) ?
Second, please substantiate your claims, don't make an argument based on a rumor..The catholics are not renouncing their doctrine on purgatory:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/compen...um-ccc_en.html
210. What is purgatory?
1030-1031
1054
Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.
I did not mean for it to be personal and please forgive me it seemed other wise.
I was saying that the fathers duck used are not desert fathers giving a spiritual advice to simple monks, but they are scholars using aspects of logic in addition to spirituality. so all i am saying is that you really have to be very careful when interpreting their quotes. The thing with desert fathers is that they are usually just giving advice, to simple monks,that usually could be taken spiritually and in many cases literally.
The verses you mentioned from maccabees and other old testament books do not even apply to this situation because all the people in the old testament went to Hades no matter what.
Besides please tell me where the word purgatory is in Bible!
And all i said was that Catholics are going away from the idea not that they have negated all the words of the previous popes yet.
I apologize again if I offended any one.
Remember me in your prayers
As if St Mary the Theotokos approves indulgences!
To those who believe in the purgatory: don't worry you may not suffer full time there is still hope. You could still buy your way out: acquire as many indulgences as you can (and keep them within reach all the time) or get yourself a plenary indulgence. Too unfortunate if your situation is similar to Our Lord Jesus Christ's, when he was born on Earth homeless and modest.
Or get this while it lasts. Best deal because there is no telling how long would anyone suffer in the purgatory or how much less time in the purgatory would anyone benefit from indulgences.
GBU
First off, you completely misrepresented the information you put on the table. The links your provided have no mention of "buying your way out". The indulgences being granted in your link are given on the basis that one "prays at the places of worship dedicated to Our Lady of Lourdes" ...not for money. And the rhetoric following your initial link only elucidates your misrepresentation..
I am not for the catholic dogma of purgatory (nor anything else for that matter), and it was not the meaning behind the original post, however many people seem to be taking it that way. Please re-read the OP and you will see my intention was to make conversation on the "idea" of a purgatoryish like place using some of the RC ideas. However on the point of indulgence, not that I want to defend the RCC because I feel they are innocent, but here is some food for thought:
"One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded." " http://www.catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp)
Make of it as you wish...
If you take a chance to re-read my original post you will see I am not in support of their dogma, nor am I trying to cause a movement to summon the Holy Synod for the approval of purgatory, just trying to spark some conversation. However most of the responses (not all of course) were simply just Anti-RC, Pro-Copt rants that seemed to have been triggered by the mere mention of the word purgatory...I guess in retrospect this was a mistake because generally Copt's are closed minded to different ideas because we are taught from the onset of childhood (whether directly or indirectly) how impeccable our church is, and how anything outside the coptic sphere is wrong...Although I do believe our church is as close to the original apostolic church any church can be, we are by no means perfect. Which I think some people forget... this mindset pervades many of us and I believe deeply impacts the way we treat other Christians, our unconditional love turns into conditional love towards copts only as we think we are better than them...this is not particularly true in all cases (maybe only here in NE america, thats where my observations come from), so don't take it personally, but I'm sure you can see the impact it might have on some degree.
I am sure most have heard of the joke, of how a christian dies and St. Peter shows him all the different churches in heaven. So as he shows him the protestant churches he sees many people jumping and clapping and praising God. When St. Peter is about to enter the coptic church with him St. Peter warns him to be quiet...so the man asks why, and St. Peter responds because "they think they are the only ones here"....Although the joke doesn't represent the mind of the church or what she teaches, but the mind of many people and I think sums up my point in a nice, but satirical way. Anyway, no more ranting for me. Sorry if I offended anyone, but these are my thoughts...pray for me
All of us were just discussing what we think and hey maybe we'll go up there and find a purgatory after all? I highly doubt it but it is possible!
Thanks for sharing your ideas
We fully understand what you mean duck, and you did nothing wrong to apologize.
All of us were just discussing what we think and hey maybe we'll go up there and find a purgatory after all? I highly doubt it but it is possible!
Thanks for sharing your ideas
No, actually we will not find a purgatory because according the the Holy Bible and the Church Fathers, none exists.
[quote author=Zakhary link=topic=6158.msg82144#msg82144 date=1203034029]
We fully understand what you mean duck, and you did nothing wrong to apologize.
All of us were just discussing what we think and hey maybe we'll go up there and find a purgatory after all? I highly doubt it but it is possible!
Thanks for sharing your ideas
No, actually we will not find a purgatory because according the the Holy Bible and the Church Fathers, none exists.
Duck showed allusion; he simply is saying that Purgatory is the cementation or formalisation of the thoughts of the Church fathers in the eys of Catholics. It is not a "new" doctrine, but one that became articulated progressively and identified as Purgatory in the latter times. The fact that it was cannonised later means that it became an issue then, and it had to be investigated. That's what all Ecunemical Councils do.
Gregory of Nyssa
"If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire" (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).
John Chrysostom
"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them" (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
"Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment" (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).
"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire" (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).
1) Everything we ever learned from the apostes and saints we have kept GLADLY... And when the roman catholics began adding things to the faith we remained True to what we have recieved and kept only that which was taught by God through the apostles and not by a church that said "well this SOUNDS like its true and KINDA makes sense, and i can back it up with 1 or 2 verses". That is not proof enough for the orthodox church. The strongest Proof is that we have recieved the faith ONCE as the bible says, and we recieved everything about the faith.. Anything New we reject jsut as the bible COMMANDS us to..not suggests, but COMMANDS us to keep only what we have been passed down from the apostles and there successors.
2) We did not leave it at that, but by the word of God we have many explanations out their even by the Pope himself explaining WHY purgatory is not real.. Mainly because it is an insult to the sacrifice of Christ saying his suffering wasnt enough.. when we die we must still suffer a little.. That is EXACTLY what purgatory means. Their may be another perspective to it, but when you really think about it, and think about everything Christ taught, believing in purgatory is to believe Chirsts sacrifice wasnt 100% sufficient. It is to believe that Christ suffered for us so that we wouldnt have to suffer for eternity but rather suffer for a little while. No, Christ took everything on his shoulders not some sins, but all the sins of the world. He was God, and everything God does is perfect, and for God to sacrifice himself was the PERFECT sacrifice, and no sin could overcome that, he overcame everything on the cross, he defeated satan. To believe in purgatory is beleive that Christ indeed did not defeat satan completely because regardless we still have to suffer for the sins satan temps us to fall in, which is satan goal. The thing that satan hates is the fact that Christ's death meant we were saved from all punishment. To believe in purgatory is to believe we were saved from some punishment.
The issue is: IT IS NON-ORTHODOX, with a small "o" and a capital "O".
There is a lot wrong with it, as I summed up previously in two simple sentences. To try to give a "western" twist to give it some plausability is nonsense.
I do not see how the admirable and motherly undertakings of the Coptic Church through history should be brought down to discussion on this level. We have not deviated from the teachings of Christ and His Apostles. We are not the only ones going to Heaven. We gave the world the majority of its Christian teaching and dogma. We do not want to rule the world or give out "coupons" to get into heaven or any other place for that matter.
duck, you are not personally being attacked, by no means.