The Shroud of Turin. Fake?

abflab91

I was just readin one of the posts were it was talkin about how Christ after he rose from the dead folded the shroud that covered his face.

Doesnt this then show that The Shroud of Turin is not the actual linen of Christ since it is one large piece of linen showing the whole body and the face, and in the gospel it says that the linen that covered his head was folded and put away seperate from the linen that covered His body?

Christforlife7

I think that in the case of a burial there would be several layers of linen. and of course blood soaks through everything. So capillary movement would cause the blood to go through most of the layers. "The" head piece which the gospel refers to was probably the top layer or something. Of course im just taking an educated guess but yea hope i helped!

coptic pharoah

wel..i have a picture of the "real" face of Jesus..i beleive it is a copy of the Shroud with drawn on skin to make it look human, rather than a black an d white image..and I got that picture from monastary..so i think the shroud was real...


God Bless

Coptic Pharaoh

Unknown

The shroud is real. As everybody said there are a lot of clothes that were used to shroud someone. The face would be covered by one and other parts as well. A massive one would be folded over the whole body including the face. Again Christ's blood was pouring out so it stained these layers. The gospels talk about the one that covered his face but that still doesn't mean that there was no massive one to cover the whole body.
The napkin on christs face that was mentioned in the gospels is the Sudarium of Oviedo. This is a piece of cloth in spain that was put on jesus' face. The blood stains of both the shroud and this napkin match identically and they were placed on the same persons head at the same time.
Facts
+ After the ressurection, the apostles took it and kept it. The mayroun for instance contains the oils from the shroud as the apostles squeezed it.
+ The apostles kept it hidden as jews thought that the shroud of a dead person is unholy so they just kept it and passed it from one family to another family until it apperared with a family in France that kept it until it was delivered to the the city of Turin.
+ The shroud was exposed to a fire that burnt parts of it in the 13th century. The parts that were burnt were then sewn with fabric.
+ In 1988 the holy see of the vatican allowed scientists to take 6 samples to carbon date. The shroud was given a date of 1260-1290 AD. They thought it was a fake.
+ A paper that was released in 2002 said that they had accidentally taken a sample from the bits of cloth that were sewn on after the fiire in the 13th century.
+ In 2002 it was restored and all the cloth from the 13th century was removed so the shroud was as it was.
+ In 2003 the holy see forbided scients who wanted to carbon date it again to take samples of the shroud itself as this would ruine it.
+ The blood stains were thought to be made of pigment but they showed that it was blood of the type AB.
I hope this provided you wiz enough info.
Pray for me.

ilovesaintmark

Great info--Lost.  Thanks.

My feeling on a simpler level, is it does not make a difference.  We have the real Body and Blood every Liturgy.  I will add by making that comment, that it is not incumbent to believe in the shroud.

Hezekiel

But are there any miracles that are attributed to the Shroud of turin? I have not heard of any. For example, St Helena was able to identify the authentic  Holycross of the Lord , becasue a dead man was  regained his life after his corpse was brought in touch with the Holy cross.

Three prestigious universities,including  Oxford University,conducted Scientific experiments independent of each other using Carbon dating and other reliable technics to determine the age of the Shroud and they all arrived at differnt conclusions.So,there is still doubt about its authencity but the vatican may prefer to declare it as authentic, for obvious reasons.

Ilovemark,

For those of us who have faith,it makes little difference,or at the maximum it emboldens our faith ,but it might send the sceptics and those who doubt the existance of the historical Jesus or who deny the birth,death and resurrection of the Lord into daze.

abflab91

Thanks a lot for the info, were is the shroud currently. Last time i heard abou it, it was in a church in Jerusalem. is it still there?

ilovesaintmark

Hezekiel,

For those skeptics, it does not make a difference what you present to them they will still doubt and be beligerent.  I do not think the shroud would prove anything to them.  Even if the carbon-dating placed it to the exact date, hour and minute, they would try to attribute it to some other person.

A person can only come to the Belief in God through an open heart to the inspired calling of the Almighty.  I agree it would be nice and magnificent, but--oh well.

Soldier for Scetis,

I believe the shroud is in Turin--Italy, under the auspices of the Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.shroud.com/faq.htm#5
Q: How large is the Shroud of Turin and where is it normally kept?

A: The Shroud is a 14½ foot long, 3½ foot wide linen cloth that bears the ventral and dorsal image of a scourged, crucified man. Owned by the Dukes of Savoy (former ruling family of Italy) until the late 1980's and now the property of the Catholic Church, it has been permanently kept in Turin, Italy, since 1578. It is stored in a special reliquary in a chapel behind the altar in the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist. The cathedral was erected specifically to house the Shroud and was built adjoining the Royal Palace (the King's former residence) in Turin. See the article titled "The Shroud Chapel is 300 Years Old" on the "Collegamento pro Sindone" page of this website for more information and a photograph of the Chapel interior and the "Shroud Exhibitions" page for an exterior photograph of the Cathedral itself.

Unknown

[quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=6374.msg84193#msg84193 date=1206063117]
But are there any miracles that are attributed to the Shroud of turin? I have not heard of any. For example, St Helena was able to identify the authentic  Holycross of the Lord , becasue a dead man was  regained his life after his corpse was brought in touch with the Holy cross.

Not every holy item has to make miracles to prove to people that it is the true thing. The cross was an exception as it was completely lost and a lot of evidence was needed to prove that is the true thing. As for the shroud, it had always been cared for by the apostles then people until it got to turin. People always knew it was the real thing and it wasn't lost so there is no reason for a miracle to happen to point to people that it is the real thing.
+ Have you seen it's appearence in the negative view. It is is like a photo noe that is a miracle as any thing like that would be more of a photo on the positive not the negative.
[quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=6374.msg84193#msg84193 date=1206063117]
Three prestigious universities,including  Oxford University,conducted Scientific experiments independent of each other using Carbon dating and other reliable technics to determine the age of the Shroud and they all arrived at differnt conclusions.So,there is still doubt about its authencity but the vatican may prefer to declare it as authentic, for obvious reasons.

Carbon dating is not accurate most of the times. It can be accurate if the object is not contaminated ie. it is not touched. This isn't the case for the shroud. I wll give you an example.
+ A mummy in egypt was carbon dated. The acctuall body itself was dated to be 800 years older than the wrappings. This is impossible as the wrappings are wrapped on straight away after mummification not 800 years.
      Back to the shroud
A paper was released in 2003 that the samples that the took from the shroud was taken from a piece of material that was stiched on in the 14th century after a fire broke that almost burnt the shroud. That is why it dated to the 13th-14th century. Oxford asked for another sample to analyse it be the vatican declined this request as the wasnted samples of the blood stained image it self. This would damage the Shroud.

[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6374.msg84143#msg84143 date=1206020079]
Great info--Lost.  Thanks.
My feeling on a simpler level, is it does not make a difference.  We have the real Body and Blood every Liturgy.  I will add by making that comment, that it is not incumbent to believe in the shroud.

I agree with you a 100% on that one. If it is true or not it is not going to change any of our beliefs.
+ You know once when i was little I used to get very excited when I heard about the holy fire that comes from the tomb of christ on bright saturday. Once when I was gathering info someone told me a short story.
+ One of the priests of the 20th century in egypt was about to celebrate holy week. Some one came to this Abouna to greet him. Abouna noticed that his friend didn't come to church so he asked him where is your friend. The man replied he is in the holy land to see the holy fire. The priest took him to the alter, got a candle, lifted the prospherin and held the candle there. It was lit then abouna gave it to the person saying: Your friend went all the way to jerusalem to take blessing but the alter in the church which carries christ every liturgy has the same blessing.
----This goes to show that the body and blood of christ is just as holy as these places. JUst because it is bread and wine not physical flesh and blood, It doeasn't mean it isn't the god that we take in us every liturgy purifing us.
I hope I didn't make it too long for you.
Please pray for me

p

Which shroud is this? The one of the Resurrection, or the one of the Crucifixion?

ilovesaintmark

aeem581,

The use of the term "shroud" identifies that for burial.  It was used post-Crucifixion of Our Lord and His subsequent entombment.

p

Oh, thanks a lot, ilovesaintmark. That clarifies a lot. Well, the piece of cloth that the woman at the Crucifixion held, that wiped Christ's face, still exists, and that clearly defines Christ's face. At least, I believe so.

ilovesaintmark

aem581,

I believe you are alluding to Veronica's veil.  There are different traditions as to where this particular cloth is enshrined.

joeg

For the arabic readers, here is an article on the topic:

http://tasbeha.org/content/articles/dl/Shroud%20of%20Turin.pdf

pray for me

joe