What do u guys think of...

gregorytheSinner

I was wondering what you guys thought of the whole
"Light" that appears from the Tomb, on Bright Saturday?

I mean i hate to be sceptic but it seems odd, that it shows on Bright Saturday, according to the Greek Orthodox Celebration (they are as i believe the ones whose patriarch enters the sanctuary)
i mean not all the churches celebrate the same Easter day?

I dont know, my uncle and i were discussing this; this morning, and he was upset when i said i had doubts about it?
any opinons/facts/feedback?

ilovesaintmark

There has been actually a huge controversy over this event developing over the last several years.

The protocol is supposed to be for the Greek Orthodox Patriarch to enter the tomb accompanied by a monk from the Byzantine tradition and a monk (Vartabed) from the Armenian Orthodox Church (Oriental Orthodox--in communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church).  It happened there was a break in that protocol that had carried through centuries and the Greeks tried to prevent the entry of the Armenian monk, which actually turned into a scuffle at the holiest site in Christendom.  There have been on-going negotiations, and they may have reached a resolution or are close to a resolution.

Do you believe that the bread and wine become the True Body and Blood or Our Lord?  If yes, that is all that is important.

Personally, I believe that it is a Divine Miracle.

I had a friend that had a two-part video which showed the celebrations of the Coptic Orthodox Church during the Paschal Week in the Holy Land, inclusive of the Chapel behind the Tomb of Our Master.  It was amazing to say the least.  I tried to look around for a copy but I was not successful and he lost his copy before I made a copy.  I was not aware of the breadth of the real estate in the Holy Land for which the Coptic Orthodox Church has custodial responsibility.

All Orthodox (Byzantine & Oriental) Churches in the East celebrate the Paschal Feast (The Glorious Resurrection) on the same reckoned day.  The representatives of all these Churches, including the Coptic Metropolitan, are in attendance, receive the light and pass it on to their respective flocks.

His Eminence, Anba Abraham, is the Coptic Orthodox Metropolitan for the Holy City of Jerusalem, and all of the Holy Lands.

I will add, there is considerable havoc (relating to joy) that occurs, and the Coptic Liturgy is conducted concurrently in the Chapel behind the Tomb.  There is a bit of enterprise and competition that happens just to be heard (i.e., the actual Liturgy).

SilentOne

There are multiple videos on youtube of this event; one just has to search the words 'holy fire' and a multitude of videos are available. Here is one of them: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ys8hNr7BZ70

PopeKyrillos

Our church recognizes this as a miracle. If Pope Shenouda does, I don't see why we shouldn't.

abflab91

[quote author=SilentOne link=topic=6383.msg84263#msg84263 date=1206154444]
There are multiple videos on youtube of this event; one just has to search the words 'holy fire' and a multitude of videos are available. Here is one of them: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ys8hNr7BZ70


In that clip if u go 9 seconds into the clip, is that a Coptic Orthodox monk holing a candle and going in, because he looks like he is wearing something like a kolonsowa

SilentOne

Also if you look at about 4:30ish, you can see a man putting his hand through the fire and is not harmed. From what I've heard, the fire will not hurt you for a period of about 30 minutes, then after it acts like a normal flame. I'm not sure if this is the same video, but in one of the videos, there is a man who does not believe his fire is holy and it suddenly goes out right infront of him. Anyone have an idea of what I'm talking about?

Also, I know that Pope Shenouda said Egyptians should not go into Israel until we can go hand-in-hand with our muslim brothers, but is there an exception for that church? For there are many Coptics that go there and worship at the Coptic chapel in the Sepulchre.

Zakhary

Yeah A respected Lady went last year and she told me all about it, so I mean real people actually experience this.  But also i wish i can experience it for my self to be as meaningful to me!

p

I heard a lot about it from my grandma, and the fire-like light does not burn clothing (according to her at least). It is amazing light, is what I have heard. I wish to go there too, but I am wondering if H.H. says that Copts now can go to Jerusalem, because I heard before that any Copt that went, would not be a Copt anymore.

gregorytheSinner

Well acutally the reason i posted this question up, was because i was
considering going there around that time.
I know the Pope didn't like the idea too much, so i decided to research it and i found a voice clip belonging to him, and it was pretty clear that it was banned. 
He says one should be obeident and listen to the rules put out by the Church, even if hty are purely political.  He even reprimanded an older lady who wrote to him by saying  something like this "You wrote to me saying that you are an older woman, which means you have a wealth of knowledge and wisdom, so you weren't pushed into it, you should know better"
A Copt who goes there, isn't banned or excommunicated form the Church, but is not allowed to take communion, in arabic the term is "La Hil Wa La Baraka"  which basically means "No Absolution and No Blessing"

p

But does anyone know the real reason why the Pope does not want the Copts going to Jerusalem? That is something I don't understand. I thought at first it was because of Israel being in wars with Palestine and Hezbollah, but now, that doesn't seem why.

ilovesaintmark

It has to do with the illegal, thug-like, strongarm, and violent acquisition by the Ethiopian Church of the Coptic Orthodox Monastery of the Archangel Michael (aka, the Monastery of the Sultan=Deir El Sultan) on the roof of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.  They entered the confines of the monastery (this is in the late 60's) kicked out the Coptic Monks, barracaded themselves, changed the locks and it has been that way since.

They were looking for their own shrine and center in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.  Since they could not acquire it by some purchase, they just took it.  The Supreme Court in Israel heard the case and gave judgment in favor of the Copts, but has not implimented the decision.

The Palestinian issue has become the second and secondary issue for Pope Shenouda's edict.

The Coptic Metropolitan, H.E., Anba Abraham, usually directs the Copts that do go to go to the other Oriental Churches (Syrian and Armenian) for Holy Communion while they are there in Jerusalem.

p

If the Supreme Court already gave their judgement to us, how come they don't forcefully take the Ethiopian Church out?

gregorytheSinner

well from what i understand his decision was political, purely political.
Its a good gesture on behhalf of the Copts in Egypt, but unfortuanetly many dont appreciate it from the muslim community or they simply dont know about it.

ilovesaintmark

The Israeli Government does not like to get involved with religious issues, per se, since they know that there is a high probability of an explosion of emotion that would lead to violence.

Moreover, they do not wish to set certain precedence which may become a thorny issue such as the Hasidic Jews that are seeking for the recovery of the full Temple Mount (the place of the Temple of Solomon) which would mean the elimination of the Mosque of the Golden Dome.  This would trigger World War IV.

The Israeli zealots have tried to plant bombs at the Mosque to blow it up and then allow for the rebuilding of the Temple as a prelude to what they perceive as the coming of their version of the messiah.

This is also one of the reasons why there has been tension on a hierarchical level (among other things).