Hi,
I'd like to know something:
If someone is baptised in the Coptic Church, and they believe, have communion regularly etc, and yet have forgotten to repent and confess for a particular sin (or even several sins), what happens? Do they go to heaven or hell?
How does it work? Is it based on a points system? One mistake doesn't mean you're out, but continually sinning does result in instant disqualification?
Also, how can we enter heaven if we have not repented all our sins?
How does God view our sins that we have not repented nor confessed?? How does He view us at that moment? Does He see us as far from Him, or close to Him?? Or neither??
Also, the sins we do, are they seen by everyone in heaven, or is viewing only limited to those with certain priviledges??
I mean, let's say I do something bad, really bad... and then I confess about it. God wipes away my sin and no longer remembers it. But... what if other heavenly creatures were watching... I mean, do they forget what they've seen also?? I mean, it can be pretty awkward going to heaven with a sinful record on earth... imagine going to heaven and meeting your grandparents who watched u smoke a joint at uni or something from the comfort of their heavenly armchairs in the Bossom of our Fathers Abraham, Isaac & Jacob??? It would be pretty hard to see them in heaven...
Comments
Some would argue that none of are deeds are perfectly good. In which case, it would be difficult to confess them all.
Some Protestants also believe that you lose your salvation every time you sin. If a believer sins and doesn't confess and repent from it, and then suddenly dies, they say that he will go to hell. It is as if they think that that a Christian's salvation depends upon him not sinning.
Interestingly, other Protestants think that once you genuinely put your faith in Christ, you cannot ever lose your salvation.
Personally, I'm not happy with either solution.
The Orthodox understanding of sin, repentence and salvation is quite clear, but how they apply to any particular individual is not a matter for us to determine.
Sin in Orthodoxy is "missing the mark." Every time we fall short of the ideal standard to which we have been called since we have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit in the baptismal font, is thus a sin. In Orthodoxy, we do not recognise the RC categorisation of mortal and venial sins. A sin is a sin; it matters not if one drowns 1 m under the ocean or if they drown 50 m under the ocean; they still drown.
The only sin that is unforgiveable, as per the words of Christ, is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which the Church interprets to mean resistance of the Grace of the Holy Spirit manifested by non-repentance. Could there be circumstances in which a failure to repent is not the consequence of resisting the Holy Spirit's Grace? An interesting question, but one which I do not want to speculate on--nor do I encourage such speculation for it may lead to some dangerous consequences.
We know that there are levels of heaven. We also know that after one departs we continue to pray for the forgiveness of their sins, and that God in His mercy is capable of forgiving the departed if they happened to be negligent to an extent and of a nature that God deems worthy of forgiveness in consideration of the prayers offered on behalf of that departed sinner.
Ultimately, it is not edifying to ask and ponder on the "what if's"; we should simply focus on what is expected of us and do the best to live by that to the best of our ability. God has graced His Church with all the necessary tools we need to accomplish this calling--the Sacraments, spiritual advisers, etc. That there is an expectation of us, and that that expectation is not far beyond our reach by virtue of the redemptive work of Christ, and in the end, that's all that matters.
a) We received salvation during baptism.
We died and resurrected with Christ during baptism, and this sacrament clothes us in the garment of Christ. We wear Christ after our baptism.
b) During repentance and confession we clean and take care of this garment to keep it in the immaculate state we received it in.
c) What if we leave that garment we wear with stains ?? What happens to us??
--> OK, we know that the Coptic Church has taken this into account and has given us the tools we need to make sure this has been taken care of.
d) Now, the underlying question is this:
What if you are baptised, and you believe, and have not confessed a sin (KNOWINGLY) out of embarassement??
What happens??
What does the Coptic Church teach us about this??? What is our position with respect to salvation??
e) If someone dies and goes to heaven, why do we need to keep on praying for God to forgive them their sins, surely the fact that they are in heaven means that they have qualified??
f) Do others in heaven see our sins that we commit on earth??
Thanks
Then you have not repented that sin.
What happens??
Let Christ Judge. If you were practising the way of repentance, perhaps...
The main thing here is that we do not let embarrassment hinder us from gaining the fruits of confession.
What does the Coptic Church teach us about this??? What is our position with respect to salvation??
The Coptic Church is not a Church that makes up doctrines for the sake that we can find out where we are going; it harbors a truth that is to impel you who hears the message to the way of Salvation and gain its fruits.
e) If someone dies and goes to heaven, why do we need to keep on praying for God to forgive them their sins, surely the fact that they are in heaven means that they have qualified??
God is not bound up by time. Plus, Judgement will come later.
f) Do others in heaven see our sins that we commit on earth??
We are in communion with them, yes. But it is clear that they are not attached to the Earth from the story of how Saul tried to communicate with Samuel.
and 2nd... Didn't JESUS die for US to FORGIVE US our SINS? and to make sure that WE GO TO HEAVEN?
and 3rd... if you die, and you didn't confess a small lie (white lie as they call it) do u still go to Heaven?
and if you die, and you didn't confess a murder or adultery do you still go to Heaven?
and Are all sins Equal? and we are far from Perfect.. we Sin Daily and it is almost imposible to confess every single sin that we did..... and if they are Equal than no one other than Saints are going to Heaven....because we are all with sin...
are you saying that just becasue someone pases away and has a family to pray for him then he has a better chance of going to heaven then some poor person that has no one????
...and i like to think that you just truly have to realize that our God is a merciful God...he's not trying to put any of his children in eternal pain.he just has to becasue if everyone goes to heaven then it would just be Earth #2...so ... if he sees that you're remorseful...that you learned your lesson and that you're generally a good person ...he'll hae mercy.
i mean i dont know if that's the right way to think about it..but yeah.
first of all... i know a Saint said this: Remeber your Sins and God will forget them, but Forget your Sind and God will Remember them... i think that is how the saying goes....
and 2nd... Didn't JESUS die for US to FORGIVE US our SINS? and to make sure that WE GO TO HEAVEN?
and 3rd... if you die, and you didn't confess a small lie (white lie as they call it) do u still go to Heaven?
and if you die, and you didn't confess a murder or adultery do you still go to Heaven?
and Are all sins Equal? and we are far from Perfect.. we Sin Daily and it is almost imposible to confess every single sin that we did..... and if they are Equal than no one other than Saints are going to Heaven....because we are all with sin...
#3 All sins are equal. If you TRULY forgot something, then God is just and merciful. He knows the limitations of His creations. But if you use this as an excuse to get away from confession, that is a completely different issue. There is no such thing as a 'white lie'. All lies are sins, all sins are equal and lead to to the same destination.
I could list all of the verses that back up confession, that is just how it works. It is good to keep in mind that saints were human and also were with sin. So, we all need confession with communion. It is worse to take communion without confession than not to take it at all - if you take it with sins on your head, that is a great and severe offense. To do so would be to spill the Lamb's blood in vain.
praying for the departed ..how does that make sense?
are you saying that just becasue someone pases away and has a family to pray for him then he has a better chance of going to heaven then some poor person that has no one????
Somebody asked that to the Priest in my Church..He said it is like saying that we are not holding any sin on them, and that ,on our part, we forgive them their sins that they commited against us... but it is obviously God's last word.....hope this makes sence///
God is merciful, if you forget you did a sin, and you couldnt confess it because you forgot it, then he will Judge you accordingly, we cant answer you exactly because we are being Judged just like everyone else (Each according to his deeds)
Just Pray that God helps you remember and repent of them all.
d) Now, the underlying question is this:
What if you are baptised, and you believe, and have not confessed a sin (KNOWINGLY) out of embarassement??
What happens??
What does the Coptic Church teach us about this??? What is our position with respect to salvation??
I also have the same question, although someone answered by saying you did not truly repent.
But is this specific action of omitting a sin to your father of confession considered a sin? Because I'm afraid I'm guilty of this :(
And there are many stories of the Church fathers who repented deeply over sins like "picking up beans they found on the ground that wasn't theirs".
So, what if you fail to repent over one sin?
What about where you CANNOT out of sheer embarrassement not repent for one sin?
What happens?
unless you live with a priest and he gives you the absolution every minute of your life until you die... then maybe you'll die without sin! in the end there are many people that die with sins!
God doesn't just forgive when we confess... what if you just left confession, and have done a sin, and repented, doing your "Kanoun" and prayed so much for God to forgive you, while waiting on abouna to respond to your phone call so you can schedule another appointment... or rather you didn't even contact abouna yet... because right when you noticed your wrong, you stood up for prayer... you finish your prayer... your wife, husband, mother, father, whoever, asks you to go grab something... and you get hit by a car... not even that, you are walking up the stairs and because of the many burgers, you get a heart attack, which causes your death... you go up to Heaven you see Jesus... you run to hug Him, and He tells you, "NOPE, no hugs from Me, you sinned that sin, you go to HELL!"
God loves us more than that... there is a saying that says, "blessed are you Repentance, for you cause the adulterers to become virgins" I hope everyone can keep this in front of them!
God loves action... 3ayzak 7amy... when you sin, you stand up to tell Him that you are sorry... and truly repent... and ask Him for forgiveness... and in due time confess!
now the sin that a person is embarrassed to confess, did this person truly repent, or do they just want to confess we khalas? did this person decide that you know what I'm done with this sin and stopped? if a person stops a sin, they would not be embarrassed of confessing it!
this reminds me of one day when I went to confession, and I had a sin... I didn't want to say it, then abouna said, "anything else?" I told him there is one sin, but I didn't repent... and I did this sin due to "love" and I don't want the absolution for it!!! and I told him the sin, and he told me I will give you the absolution for it... even though you don't want it! so I was like, "abouna if i was put in this situation again, I would do the same sin... I did it out of love, and i see nothing wrong with it" again abouna told me its okay, I will give you the absolution, and God will one day reveal how bad it was for you!
out of this I can sit and meditate for hours, but I will save my fingers the typing!
but here I entered confession, not caring for that sin... even though that sin was beyond embarrassment, and would not only make me look bad in front of God, but in front of abouna, and I would be looked lowly upon for its sake, but just mentioning the sin, God was like, I will give him happiness... he didn't repent yet, he didn't even want to confess it... but he did the work of saying it to me... I will fight him, and give him absolution.
so there a few ways that we can go along with embarrassment,
1. actually repent, and stop (very hard, but with the right will, is successful)
2. start stopping, and keep record of you stopping (decreasing quantity) and show your father of confession, and that will give you the feeling of success, which would overcome the feeling of embarrassment
3. just mention the problem... tell abouna I have a sin, I'm not able to say it, and embarrassed to say it... then abouna would talk to you about it, and by then God will see that you have been working hard, and will give you the courage to say it.
these are all options on what you can do...
Akhadna el baraka... neskhor Allah!
Therefore it seems to me, as others have said, we cannot hope to confess every sin we ever commit during confession with our priest. But that is not the essential purpose of confession, it is rather to provide us with a means of spiritual growth and support. We confess so that our fathers know how best to help us, it is not that God does not know our sins. Indeed there are many things which we do not even realise are sins and never confess. But our fathers help us move forward, a step at a time, so that those things which were hidden from us become clear, and those which seemed overwhelming are conquered.
Sin is not essentially a list of things. It is turning from God. Therefore what matters always is not this or that sin, but turning towards God. We could imagine someone sinning by failing to keep the fasts, but simply not eating until late afternoon doesn't guarantee any sort of spirituality at all. When we concentrate on particular actions then we often miss the point about the spiritual life. It is not about stopping doing things at all, it is about turning towards God and living in a prayerful standing before him. That is why Augustine's maxim is so true, 'Love God and do as you please'.
It would be possible to take a list of things which are 'sinful' and stop doing them, but that would not mean that we had a lifegiving relationship with Christ at all. This is why the role of the priest and spiritual father is to awaken and strengthen in us a desire to know Christ and to live in his presence. He teaches us that this and that behaviour prevent our drawing close to God, he sees what is the most pressing need at any time. Perhaps we think that some habitual sin is most grevious to God, but in fact it may be the dismissive way we talk to our family which the priest wants us to deal with and which he sense is more destructive to our spiritual life.
If the whole aim of our life is to stop doing things then we are not really living a different life to the Jews. We are under a Christian Law, keep failing and have not much to look forward to but condemnation. If the aim is to be transformed into the image and likeness of Christ, and to be filled with the Holy Spirit, then we avoid sin because it prevents this transformation taking place. We hesitate to sin because is saddens the Holy Spirit. We wake up each morning and understand that it is a new day, and that TODAY is always the day of salvation.
Our relationship with our spiritual father should be like with our doctor. When he says, 'Hi there, what's the problem?', we tell him what is up because we want to receive advice and whatever treatment is necessary for our healing. The doctor never says, 'What do you mean you have cough, that's disgusting!'. He never says, 'Go away and stop having a broken leg'. And we don't keep quiet about what we are suffering from because we have gone to the Doctors to get help, and he is just there to help us.
It would be a bad thing for anyone to worry that they had missed confessing one sin or another which they couldn't even remember and were afraid that they would be damned for it. What endangers our soul is refusing to confess a sin because we don't want to give it up, and holding on to the thought of it with pleasure. If we have turned towards God and away from sin and self then we have repented. We will have to do the same each day, many times each day. But repentance is not essentially turning from sin, rather it is turning towards God. If we turn towards God then we are turning away from sin, but merely following a list of instructions does not mean that we are Christian at all if our life is not centred on God.
Father Peter