Filioque

joeg

I'm having a debate about this with my friend and need as much evidence as possible that the Filoque is heresy so I would simply like to clarify our COC's views. We believe that the Filoque clause is heresy, because if the Holy Spirit also proceeded from the the Son, then:

1) We would have a confusion on hypostatic properties i.e. the Son would have the same hypostasis as the Father.

2) The Holy Spirit wuold have two points of origin, resulting in
- the Son being cause and caused at the same time.
- the Father's procession of the Holy Spirit would be imperfect
- The Holy Spirit would have procession both directly and indirectly (through the son),

3) The Son would have the power of origination which the Holy Spirit would not have, meaning the Son is greater than the Holy Spirit which was Marcion's heresy

On top of all of this, the Filoque clause was added without the authority of an ecumenical council, was first welcomed in Charlemagne's reign of the Holy Roman Empire in 749 AD.

Thats all I've got... any additions please?

pray for me

joe

Mira8388h

I know i am going to sound crazy bas what is a Filoque? ???

Unknown

[quote author=bentBABAyasooa` link=topic=6722.msg89983#msg89983 date=1213066262]
I know i am going to sound crazy bas what is a Filoque? ???


Filoque is latin. Filo=son. Its a term that describes the procession of the Holy Spirit from God the Son.

The word filoque is IN the Catholic Creed (if ever u read it in latin). It means that they believe that The Holy Spirit Proceeds from the Father AND the son.

God is a perfect trinity. The Father is the source, and proceeding from the Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is a perpetual procession. THere is no beginning when the 3 hypostatic persons did not exist. The Son existed with the Father, the Holy Spirit existed with the Father, before all creation. The Father is the source.

If you see a stream of water in a forest, You see the water flowing down the stream. Its proceeding from a source. Isn't it? But we cannot (mathematically impossible) to extract the water of that stream from its source. So procession from the Father means that there is a source: which IS the Father. He is the source.
From Him proceeds the Son & the Holy Spirit.

If we say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son, this is incorrect.  The Son proceeds from the Father. He is the wisdom of the source of wisdom. The Son did NOT come before the Father, nor AFTER the Father. They co-existed. The Father is a perpetual Father to the Son. The Son is a perpetual Son to the Father.
We say "Son" in that a wise thought that was spoken from a wise mind cannot be separated from its source. The spoken word that is wise CANNOT be separated from the source which it came from.

If I talk to you, and you say :"I like QT''s mind" - what did you like? It was my Mind u liked?? But you didnt open my mind and see it, you listened to my words (which CAME from my mind). The word cannot be separated from its source. Yet, the word is DIFFERENT than the mind from where it originated.

Again, the Father is the source of the Holy Spirit.

If we say the Holy Spirit then proceeds from the Father, this equilateral triangle of the Trinity becomes distorted. Its not equal anymore. The role of the Father , or the source, is taken from Him. Each person in the Trinity has a role:

(for example, if we take Wisdom as an attribute of God)

* The Father = the Source of Wisdom
* The Son = The wisdom
* The Holy Spirit = The Spirit of Wisdom.

(If we take Truth as an attribute of God)

* The Father = Source of Truth
* THe Son = The Truth (i am the way, the Life and the Truth)
* The Spirit = The Spirit of Truth

We've proven that God The Father is equal (but not the same as ) God the Son (who is equal and not the same as GOd the Holy Spirit). If the Holy SPirit then proceeds from the Son, then this is no more equal. The Son becomes higher than the Father, when both are equal (but not the same).

God the father is the Destination
God the Son is the Way (to that destination)
God the Holy Spirit (is the Spirit of XXXXXX???)

Now, follow the same logic as we did for God's attribute being Truth (for example), and fill in the X's. If you do, you'll see that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Source. If Christ is the Way (to a destination) - i.e. if He is the path to the Father, then surely the Holy Spirit will be the Spirit of that Destination, not of the way to that Destination. You see?

Unknown

Joe, was this topic useful to you?

To explain why the Holy Spirit cannot proceed from the Son, One HAS to talk about the Trinity. When we understand the Trinity, we can then see the role of each Person in the Trinity.

If the Son is "The Expression" of what the Source(the Father) is, then the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the attribute of that Source, not of the expression.

OK..let's look at this carefully (its literally logic):

For this example, i need u to Imagine if I was EXTREMELY Intelligent:

My mind has had a great idea. I speak it, or express that idea. The spoken word came from the mind. The spoken word is NOT the mind, yet it proceeds from the mind. I said something intelligent (let's say) - so we can say that QT has an intelligent mind. How he expressed himself was intelligent, with a spirit of expression.

If you read the above phrase, you'd see there is something QUITE NOT RIGHT.

"With a spirit of expression". It should be "with a spirit of intelligence". Shouldn't it!!

Like I said, if God the Father is the source of wisdom, the Son is the Expression of that Wisdom, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Wisdom, NOT the Spirit of Expression.

The Son is the Expression of God the Father. The Will of the Father is expressed through Christ, the Son, with the Holy Spirit.

Let's look closer:

God the Father created the world THROUGH the Son, with the Life Giving Holy Spirit.


So, the expression of God the Father's ability to Create was done through the Son. Therefore, the Holy Spirit cannot be proceeding from the expressed Person of the Holy Trinity, but rather from the source of Creation: The Father. The 1st Person of the Holy Trinity.

God the Father Is the Creator
Christ CreatED the World
THe Holy Spirit Gives Life to that Creation


Each person in the Trinity has a function, or a role.  If THe Holy Spirit proceeded from the Son, then it would be the Spirit of the Created, not of the Creation. You see? Its very subtle. You do not need a degree in English to fathom this. Its really elementary logic.

Let me know if this helps

joeg

Yeah Vas fine, I already understand that, what I need is more arguments to supplement the arguments I have against the Filioque. So far I've got:

We believe that the Filoque clause is heresy, because if the Holy Spirit also proceeded from the the Son, then:

1) We would have a confusion on hypostatic properties i.e. the Son would have the same hypostasis as the Father.

2) The Holy Spirit wuold have two points of origin, resulting in
- the Son being cause and caused at the same time.
- the Father's procession of the Holy Spirit would be imperfect
- The Holy Spirit would have procession both directly and indirectly (through the son),

3) The Son would have the power of origination which the Holy Spirit would not have, meaning the Son is greater than the Holy Spirit which was Marcion's heresy

On top of all of this, the Filoque clause was added without the authority of an ecumenical council, was first welcomed in Charlemagne's reign of the Holy Roman Empire in 749 AD.


Do you have more?

pray for me

joe

Unknown

[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6722.msg90028#msg90028 date=1213124628]

Do you have more?

pray for me

joe



More?? U want more??
There is no more.
Gosh Joe... you've answered it. We've proven that it cannot be  a perfect Equal Trinity if the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son & Father. Impossible.
What more is there??

joeg

[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6722.msg90034#msg90034 date=1213125739]
What more is there??


Well I dunno... If you think I've covered it enough, then that will do.

pray for me

joe