Hello,
Recently, we've been talking about theosis. That we do not consume Divinity, and we are just partakers of the Divine Nature, not IN the Divine Nature as we cannot touch Divinity. Can we?
But how is it that Saint Mary did not suffer having the Fire of Divinity overshadow her, and the Divine in her womb?? How was that possible???
I know the story of the burning bush, that the bush was filled with fire, yet the fire did not consume it. This is a symbol of saint mary carrying the Divine nature. But HOW did it not consume her? Why is it she could carry the divine Nature and it not hurt her, and yet we cannot??? Why so??
Thanks guys.
Comments
Hello,
Recently, we've been talking about theosis. That we do not consume Divinity, and we are just partakers of the Divine Nature, not IN the Divine Nature as we cannot touch Divinity. Can we?
But how is it that Saint Mary did not suffer having the Fire of Divinity overshadow her, and the Divine in her womb?? How was that possible???
I know the story of the burning bush, that the bush was filled with fire, yet the fire did not consume it. This is a symbol of saint mary carrying the Divine nature. But HOW did it not consume her? Why is it she could carry the divine Nature and it not hurt her, and yet we cannot??? Why so??
Thanks guys.
let's look at the verse:
Luke 1
34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" 35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
the power of God made st Mary holy enough that carried the burning Divinty. that's we we believe that after that she is in fact sinless.
that's we we believe that after that she is in fact sinless.
I thought only the Catholics believe she is without sin?
I checked lots of different versions of the Bible ( on Bible Gateway) and they all say the same, in more or less the same words... ( all of them but 1...)
Now if we say she was the Forever Virgin, then why does the Bible say ÈKnew Her not, TILL She had her Firstborne....
TILL means he Èknew È her after ??? isn't this sort of weired??... don't worry, i am not doubting, i am just wondering.... and thought it was weired
QT-PA-2T
to answer ur question,
it is because god wanted too! :)
the catholic church believe in "Immaculate Conception", meaning that the conception of Mary was without the original sin. which is wrong.
we believe that she was born with the original sin, but then when: "The Holy Spirit [came] upon [her], and the power of the Highest [overshadowed her]," (Luke 1:35), she became sinless. basiclly like "Papal infallibility" but she is not a pope.....she is the Theotokos, Mother of God.
[quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=6723.msg89978#msg89978 date=1213065352]
ok.. this is off topic, but we say the " forever Virgin" (Batool kol Hein) about St.Mary ... and this is what I beleive, but in AMtthew 1: 25 it sais: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
I checked lots of different versions of the Bible ( on Bible Gateway) and they all say the same, in more or less the same words... ( all of them but 1...)
Now if we say she was the Forever Virgin, then why does the Bible say ÈKnew Her not, TILL She had her Firstborne....
TILL means he Èknew È her after ??? isn't this sort of weired??... don't worry, i am not doubting, i am just wondering.... and thought it was weired
if you compare that word with other places it appears in, the word doesn't confirm the understading that she give birth to more children. this is a verse that protestants use all the time against st. Mary to not take her intercessions.
if you compare that word with other places it appears in, the word doesn't confirm the understading that she give birth to more children. this is a verse that protestants use all the time against st. Mary to not take her intercessions.
i don't understand... i am sorry... i got the part about the protestants not taking Her intercessions.... but what was the part before that??
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6723.msg89984#msg89984 date=1213066946]
if you compare that word with other places it appears in, the word doesn't confirm the understading that she give birth to more children. this is a verse that protestants use all the time against st. Mary to not take her intercessions.
i don't understand... i am sorry... i got the part about the protestants not taking Her intercessions.... but what was the part before that??
i'll post what i mean latter....
However, when the angel of the Lord came to mary with the good news, he said "the power of the Highest will overshadow you" Meaning protect you from sin. Which makes sense because no sin can come NEAR the Lord Jesus. So as the Lord was in her womb for 9 months, she was than without sin for 9 months.
Please do research on this before posting. I urge you all to do that. And please give Patristic references.
I asked a question out of my own ignorance. Let's not lead each other into confusion by posting the 1st thing that comes to our heads. Either ask abouna, or ask someone else who may be more knowledgeable.
Thanks
it was an abouna who told me this, i wasnt saying the first thing that came to my head
I was talking to Minagir. I said "Mina" not "Meena".
Couldnt you people think of any other name other than Mina. There's another userid called "JustAnotherMina"
Guys, please be creative when chosing user ids. Look at mine.
"the same fashion in the Scholia also he comes forward with the same words as follows: «'For in him dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily', that is not by assumption simply 173, like light that shines, or fire that imparts its heat [to] the objects near it, but, if we may so say, that the divine and incontaminable nature itself by a true union as I have said made the temple from the Virgin a dwelling-place for that which he is recognised to be. For thus Christ Jesus is recognised to be one»" (St. Severus of Antioch, Letter to the Emesenes [c.512-18])
Im looking for sinlessness texts, but I'm pretty sure that is correct
pray for me
joe
Christ's sinlessness was different from that of St Mary. Christ was sinless due to Him being God incarnate. Sin is alien from his nature, so simply he cannot sin. St Mary on the other hand was sinless by grace, by rendering her will completely to God. In this aspect, she's the perfect example of the true believer. We call her "panagia" (the all-holy) in our hymns, this is not a joke or some kind of compliment or poetry, it's the believe of the church!
Our sinfull nature doesn't mean that we HAVE to sin, it means that we are prone to sin, we are weak because of a distortion of our nature. If we would co-operate perfectly with the will of God, we wouldn't sin. And yes St Mary did need a savior, because he came to not only deliver us from sins, but also from our fallen nature, natural death and spiritual death.
Also we don't believe we inherit original sin (only it's consequences) and therefore we don't need to believe in some kind of immaculate conception in order for Christ not to inherit original sin.
St Mary was indeed sinless (i'm not sure if this is only from the moment of conception, ie the H. Spirit overshadowing her to conceive Christ), this is the believe of the majority of Eastern Church Fathers. I can't be bothered to find the link to the thread that this was posted in before, but if you look on www.coepa.org you'll find a book by Fr Tadros "st Mary in the orthodox concept" and it has all the quotes.
Christ's sinlessness was different from that of St Mary. Christ was sinless due to Him being God incarnate. Sin is alien from his nature, so simply he cannot sin. St Mary on the other hand was sinless by grace, by rendering her will completely to God. In this aspect, she's the perfect example of the true believer. We call her "panagia" (the all-holy) in our hymns, this is not a joke or some kind of compliment or poetry, it's the believe of the church!
Our sinfull nature doesn't mean that we HAVE to sin, it means that we are prone to sin, we are weak because of a distortion of our nature. If we would co-operate perfectly with the will of God, we wouldn't sin. And yes St Mary did need a savior, because he came to not only deliver us from sins, but also from our fallen nature, natural death and spiritual death.
Also we don't believe we inherit original sin (only it's consequences) and therefore we don't need to believe in some kind of immaculate conception in order for Christ not to inherit original sin.
I agree. My FOC told me that we must remember we are strangers to sin, because we were created in the image of God. Many times the devil makes us think, well this sin is very common, or this sin is not that big of a deal, or this sin isnt even really a sin if you THINK about it. But the fact of the matter is, we are strangers to sin. The only problem is we are lead into thinking sin is apart of who we are. But we see that St. Mary (as Hos Erof mentioned) co-operated fully with God, and was able to stay away from sin completely. She trully knew that she was created in the image of the Lord and in his likeness, so she stayed away from sin, and stayed close to God, and we all know God is stronger than the devil. She let God fight her battles, and came out victorious and is known as the most blessed among all women.
Why exactly was St Mary sinless then? Because she surrendered her will completely to God? or because the Holy Spirit overshadowed Her?
Because she gave her will completely to God and said YES to Him, the H. Spirit overshadowed her. It was not some kind of thing that was forced upon her, neither her conception or purity and holy life. If she would be sinless because the H. Spirit overshadowed her, that would be limiting her free will I think.
Perhaps we could compare it to baptism. In baptism we are granted the renewal of our inner person and the old man "dies" through the washing with water and the Holy Spirit. Now the old man doesn't really die, because else we couldnt ever sin, and that is limiting our free will. We should love God from our own free will and therefore lead a holy life, in order to be in communion with Him. So the old inner self is still there, but it doesn't have to be the limiting factor for leading a holy life: ie the old me is crucified with Christ, but I have the freedom to resurrect this old self by sinning and following my fleshly desires. But I now also have potential to grow in holiness more and more when I co-operate with the grace of God. This is how I view St Mary's sinlessness.
I wonder what your thoughts are on this?
I just want to know why we venerate her more that all humans?
Thanks
God Bless
pray for me
joe
But then anyone could be sinless like her, if they wanted, if it's purely based on surrendering your will to God (I'm not saying that that's easy) but theoretically we should all be able to lead a sinless life, yet so many saints have come and gone, and none of them is looked upon as highly as St Mary.
I just want to know why we venerate her more that all humans?
Thanks
God Bless
Exactly.
So, can someone tell us how is it she was able to carry the Divine Nature in her womb without it effecting her?
We do not even eat Divinity, but the life Giving Holy Body. How is it she can carry the Divine Nature in her?
pray for me
joe
But then anyone could be sinless like her, if they wanted, if it's purely based on surrendering your will to God (I'm not saying that that's easy) but theoretically we should all be able to lead a sinless life, yet so many saints have come and gone, and none of them is looked upon as highly as St Mary.
I just want to know why we venerate her more that all humans?
Thanks
God Bless
Exactly, everybody has the POTENTIAL to do the same as St Mary, but it's not easy, yet nothing is impossible with God because it's God who works in us and through us.
Nobody is looked upon as higly as St mary because she was the only one who was worthy to give birth to the Incarnate Logos, she's unique in that sense. Now, why did God choose her then? Because she surpassed all others in holiness and purity. She was called full of grace and blessed among women, that was not some kind of random greeting from the archangel. Of course it's possible for the H. Spirit to overshadow someone else, that's what happens with us during chrismation (the second sacrament). But we should differentiate between the reason of overshadowing in the case of St Mary, that was uniquely for the conception to occur in her womb.
The Holy spirit is working in us, and the exact goal is to make us all saints and perfect and sinless.
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect (mat 5:48).
God wouldnt give us this commandment if it was impossible. Truly it's impossible relying on our own strength, but God's grace is what makes us saints if we would co-operate with it.
God Bless
Did Abraham see God? If Yes, why did he not die then?
Did Abraham see God? If Yes, why did he not die then?
The answer to this is seperate from the St. Mary discussion. Abraham saw God in the form of a human, when the three men came to inform him of the news that Isaac would be born unto them, in the same way that those who saw Jesus on earth didn't die. People who saw God in his Glory could not and did not see him, because the Light of his Divinity was greater than the sun e.g. Moses used to wear a veil, because after meeting God his face would shine, and the Peter, James and John could not see Jesus suring the Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor due to his Divine radiance. Correct me if I'm wrong
pray for me
joe