Hello,
Can someone please help explain the following:
In the Coptic Church, why is it males get baptised 40 days after birth and females 80 days after birth?? (correct me if i'm wrong..) - but the delay of 40 days anyway???
Also, why is the mother prohibited from having Holy Communion after she gives birth? What did she do wrong?
Thanks
Comments
Hello,
Can someone please help explain the following:
In the Coptic Church, why is it males get baptised 40 days after birth and females 80 days after birth?? (correct me if i'm wrong..) - but the delay of 40 days anyway???
Also, why is the mother prohibited from having Holy Communion after she gives birth? What did she do wrong?
Thanks
Adam was put in the garden of Eden 40 days after his creation and Eve after 80 days.
Is that your answer, or the CoC's answer??
Why also can't the mother have Communion after she gives birth??
Thanks Hezekiel. I really appreciate your help.
God Bless
Please pray for me
There is a book called the book of Jubelee. The book records all the revelations that God dictated to Moses when he ascended to the top of the Sinai Mountain.If you read the first verse of Genesis that explains about the shape of the earth and the universe, you can';t help but conclude that it was a direct revelation and that both Genesis, the beginning of the bible and 'the book of revelation', the end of the Bible, were directly dictated by God or his angels.Now, this book is not part of the Biblical canon,but is kept in churches for referral.As Orthodox 11 explained to me the other day, church fathers have mentioned verses from it and continue to do so.I am not sure about the EO churchs,but the oriental churchs regard the book of jubelee as very important and frequently make use of it.To answer your Q,the story of 40 and 80 days is found there.
QT, I was replying to you, but I will continue later,if the question still stands.Sorry,I got to go,unexpectedly.
Thanks in advance
God Bless
Please pray for me
Why also can't the mother have Communion after she gives birth??
Let me be quick on this one.The question is similar to why we take off our shoes when we enter the Heikel or the Altar? The rites and rituals of most of the Orthodox Christian practise has biblical background and is to be found in the OT. For example, we take off our shoes to remind ourselves that we are entering a holy ground, just as Moses did when he stood in the presence of God in the story of the burning Bush.The rites and rules of the Holy communion has its roots also in the book of Leveticus (dont remember the verse numbers),where a woman who gives birth to a son is counted as ritually unclean for 40 days and for twice as long after the birth of a female child.
This is called the "period of purification", after that time has elapsed ,She is allowed to go the temple and bring the required offerings for the priest to make atonement for her.The Blessed Virgin Mary did also follow this jewish rites and custom and had brought Jesus into the temple for purification. Godislove,let me do some research on that.In the meantime, how long did Adam and Eve stayed in the garden of Eden?
Godislove,let me do some research on that.In the meantime, how long did Adam and Eve stayed in the garden of Eden?
I have no idea... but I wanted to ask (please forgive my ignorance) why women were considered unclean for 40 extra days if they had a female child..??
Thanks in advance
God bless
Please pray for me
I have no idea... but I wanted to ask (please forgive my ignorance) why women were considered unclean for 40 extra days if they had a female child..??
Your Q is by no means ignorant. I am not sure how to answer it,though. It is the Lord Himself who told Moses to make those laws. Scholars agree that the ancient people had a notion that the mother suffers for a longer time after the birth of a girl than after the birth of a boy. In other words, after the birth of a female,the mothers body produces a greater amount of bloody and watery discharge that stayed longer.That means, the Physiological makeup of the mother changes and after the birth of a baby girl ,it takes much longer time to get back to its original state ,hence the symptoms of impurity persist longer.This is a fact that modern Medicine has attested to.
You may like to ask more knowledgable people.
This is an interesting discussion, I am learning new things.
Hezekial,but hasn't the Holy Spirit of God inspired the prophets to write the bible,rather than directly dictating to them what to write?? In the New Testament, Jesus told his disciples the Holy Spirit would remind them everything He taught them.Correct me if I am wrong?
now for the girl, they are to fertilize and to populate... the number eight is the meaning of the eighth day... or new birth... and again ten is perfection... so 8*10=80 perfecting the new born to perfect their offspring to become a woman, a mother or a new eve!
(this is not an actual reason... but a meditation for the reason)
Hello,
Can someone please help explain the following:
In the Coptic Church, why is it males get baptised 40 days after birth and females 80 days after birth?? (correct me if i'm wrong..) - but the delay of 40 days anyway???
Also, why is the mother prohibited from having Holy Communion after she gives birth? What did she do wrong?
Thanks
i can't believe no one gave you the full right answer here yet after all of this discussion.
The 40 days for males and 80 for females are not for the born child but for the mother. this is connected with your second question....which i think was answered....because there would be still some bleeding and that would link back to discussion about menstruation.
Since in our Church there must be a person to be "an Eshbeen", a helper/guider, to a new born child the best guider you have to him/her through their life is the mother. The child can be baptized the minute it can be born...which i think happens in rare cases where the child is dieing. So the mother, the guider have to be able to enter the baptistery, which is considered an Altar, and the Sanctuary, which contents the Altar and receive the holy Mysteries with the new born. So for the child to be attached to the guider, the guider also have to be able to do what the child would do during the process of baptism.
Now the bleeding really takes around 40 days, if more it can be extended. I was baptized around 3 months after i was born. There is a prayer that for the mother to be absolved before the process (if am not mistaken). The extra forty days for females, 80 days are just tradition because bringing a female to life was not as important as bring a male ( still is in many ways, which some of you would consider sexism). but since though, the church extended the period for the mother to be served more when having a female. you wont see this around the new world, but women, after giving birth, get a lot of help from reletives and friends and the fathers themselves would dedicate more time to serving them while that period.
the Church didn't make up what i've said above. the reference is this:
Leviticus 12
1 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 She shall then continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days.... 5 But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days.
it's obvious that for males, women wait for 7 + 33 = 40 days
and females, 14 + 66 = 80 days
to add to hezekiel... the number four is the number of weakness... thats why many were to fast for forty days... to overcome weakness... and ten is perfection... the 4*10=40 thus meaning perfecting weakness! so for the guys, the mother is to ask for perfecting her son's weakness!
now for the girl, they are to fertilize and to populate... the number eight is the meaning of the eighth day... or new birth... and again ten is perfection... so 8*10=80 perfecting the new born to perfect their offspring to become a woman, a mother or a new eve!
(this is not an actual reason... but a meditation for the reason)
i thought number 4 is the number of earth (4 corners) where you'd have the earth, 4, and the true God, the Trinity, 3, 3 + 4 = 7 , Number of perfection. because God and His creation is perfection.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6835.msg91592#msg91592 date=1214505645]
Hello,
Can someone please help explain the following:
In the Coptic Church, why is it males get baptised 40 days after birth and females 80 days after birth?? (correct me if i'm wrong..) - but the delay of 40 days anyway???
Also, why is the mother prohibited from having Holy Communion after she gives birth? What did she do wrong?
Thanks
The extra forty days for females, 80 days are just tradition because bringing a female to life was not as important as bring a male ( still is in many ways, which some of you would consider sexism).
I beg to differ. There is no such thing as "bringing a female to life is not as important as bringing a male". Have you forgotten that without the females, the males would never exist? Furthermore, God does not regard such thinking. Even if it was the prevalent thinking of the time, that would never mean that God approved and encourage that kind of thinking. That is sexism, it is not considered sexism. Furthermore, after the Resurrection of Christ and the light of His Gospel, it is wrong for you to claim that, "bringing a female to life was not important as bringing a male". Has not the Church agreed that "There is no male nor female" and that the difference is only a difference of roles? I sincerely ask of you to review your posts before they offend anybody. My birth by no means was any less important than any other male. Only the character of the person later in his/her life later applies to whose was more important. Am I not right?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6835.msg91699#msg91699 date=1214537500]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6835.msg91592#msg91592 date=1214505645]
Hello,
Can someone please help explain the following:
In the Coptic Church, why is it males get baptised 40 days after birth and females 80 days after birth?? (correct me if i'm wrong..) - but the delay of 40 days anyway???
Also, why is the mother prohibited from having Holy Communion after she gives birth? What did she do wrong?
Thanks
The extra forty days for females, 80 days are just tradition because bringing a female to life was not as important as bring a male ( still is in many ways, which some of you would consider sexism).
I beg to differ. There is no such thing as "bringing a female to life is not as important as bringing a male". Have you forgotten that without the females, the males would never exist? Furthermore, God does not regard such thinking. Even if it was the prevalent thinking of the time, that would never mean that God approved and encourage that kind of thinking. That is sexism, it is not considered sexism. Furthermore, after the Resurrection of Christ and the light of His Gospel, it is wrong for you to claim that, "bringing a female to life was not important as bringing a male". Has not the Church agreed that "There is no male nor female" and that the difference is only a difference of roles? I sincerely ask of you to review your posts before they offend anybody. My birth by no means was any less important than any other male. Only the character of the person later in his/her life later applies to whose was more important. Am I not right?
well that's why i said "still is in many ways, which some of you would consider sexism". this is a cultural statment. it's not an offical saying of the church. that is the way people used to think and still think in many countries including egypt. you cannot control it. i am not against what you are saying....i strongly agree with it; i just alway like to say what happens with what are the true reasons.
what i have said was another way to look at where the church try to oppose that thought in a way. the full true reason was very clear in the refernce below....that's the main point.
i can't believe no one gave you the full right answer here yet after all of this discussion.
Yeah.. me too.. And then people complain that I'm asking too many questions. Finally, thanks Mina!! Phew!! OK.. my 2nd question wasn't THAT important.. but in the back of my head, i'm just curious if its THAT serious if she's bleeding. Yep. great answer mina. I appreciate it people take the time to research this stuff...
Guys... this question wasn't for me! Its for other people too that ask me.. so i can't just tell them n'importe quoi. Tradition.. from the OT? And what was the reasoning behind that in the OT?? 80 days is a LONG time bro...
The 40 days you've mentioned makes perfect sense.. but 80 days?? gosh!! No. Don't worry.. im not disputing it. I figured out it was from the OT... but I didnt know where.
OK. That's fine. But then do you also know why its 80 days for females??? Its not essential for this thread.. i'm curious.
Thanks Mina for the time you've spent in answering.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6835.msg91669#msg91669 date=1214519813]
I have no idea... but I wanted to ask (please forgive my ignorance) why women were considered unclean for 40 extra days if they had a female child..??
Your Q is by no means ignorant. I am not sure how to answer it,though. It is the Lord Himself who told Moses to make those laws. Scholars agree that the ancient people had a notion that the mother suffers for a longer time after the birth of a girl than after the birth of a boy. In other words, after the birth of a female,the mothers body produces a greater amount of bloody and watery discharge that stayed longer.That means, the Physiological makeup of the mother changes and after the birth of a baby girl ,it takes much longer time to get back to its original state ,hence the symptoms of impurity persist longer.This is a fact that modern Medicine has attested to.
You may like to ask more knowledgable people.
I never in my entire life heard something like this, that the mother's fluxes remain longer when she gives birth to a female child. Do you have any credible sources for this??? From what I know and study, there's no difference between giving birth to a boy or girl, perhaps I'm misinformed, but with all due respect I can't believe you on only your word here hehe.
The extra forty days for females, 80 days are just tradition
Tradition.. from the OT? And what was the reasoning behind that in the OT?? 80 days is a LONG time bro...
The 40 days you've mentioned makes perfect sense.. but 80 days?? gosh!!
well i personnally would take the sexist view that i kind of argued below as a reason for this and as what was told me by a dear priest. but it really doesn't matter....that was just one way to put it. the rite was in the verse, that's what we follow.
To come back to your Q, usually God inspired the writers to use their own insights,memory and outlook to shape his Word ,as is with Moses in the rest of his books, and so He overruled by inspiration of his Spirit that what resulted was what he wanted written.However, he gave the story of creation in direct revelation at the top of Mt Sinai. Hors, trust me, I did not make it up.The Bible does not tell us the reason as to why God ordered Moses to install that law.However, God does reveal his ways to mankind in his own time.There is always a valid reason to eveything He does. As Science is trying to come up with some magic formula to explain the big bang theory,there are so many things that Science tries to explain things of religious nature.Regarding this issue,at the request of religious tink-tankers, Medical science had conducted an experiemnt and found out that impurities after the birth of a female last longer to clear. I will do my very best to find the document for you,but I have read it.Now, was that analysis conclusive or not, or would I take it as final truth or valid explanation,that is another matter.
First, AGAIN, this was not a FULLFILLING reason for what the scripture has said. DO NOT, again DO NOT take this as a true valid reason. this is just a thought.
but anyways, i'll make myslef more clear. you all take that sentence and skip wat i said after: "for the mother to be served more when having a female. you wont see this around the new world, but women, after giving birth, get a lot of help from reletives and friends and the fathers themselves would dedicate more time to serving them while that period."
the action here is being "served" and getting help from reletives. as you all SAID, and KNOW, "boys are generally preferred in tradtional societies". TO REDUCE THAT it's best to concentrate on the female baby for more time. tht's it. it's that simple to understand or to IGNORE.
[quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=6835.msg91673#msg91673 date=1214522920]
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6835.msg91669#msg91669 date=1214519813]
I have no idea... but I wanted to ask (please forgive my ignorance) why women were considered unclean for 40 extra days if they had a female child..??
Your Q is by no means ignorant. I am not sure how to answer it,though. It is the Lord Himself who told Moses to make those laws. Scholars agree that the ancient people had a notion that the mother suffers for a longer time after the birth of a girl than after the birth of a boy. In other words, after the birth of a female,the mothers body produces a greater amount of bloody and watery discharge that stayed longer.That means, the Physiological makeup of the mother changes and after the birth of a baby girl ,it takes much longer time to get back to its original state ,hence the symptoms of impurity persist longer.This is a fact that modern Medicine has attested to.
You may like to ask more knowledgable people.
I never in my entire life heard something like this, that the mother's fluxes remain longer when she gives birth to a female child. Do you have any credible sources for this??? From what I know and study, there's no difference between giving birth to a boy or girl, perhaps I'm misinformed, but with all due respect I can't believe you on only your word here hehe.
I don’t think I have anything to add to this the discussion except to echo what Hos Erof suggested. My dear friend Hezekiel, I agree God always has a valid reason for everything but baby’s gender is irrelevant and has no bearing on the mother’s condition after birth and what she normally experienced. I would be curious to find any article to dispute this fact.
[quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=6835.msg91789#msg91789 date=1214602541] Mina, your statement does not explain as to why the mother should wait 80 days after the birth of a baby girl? Baby boys are generally preferred in tradtional societies,but that does not explain the reason behind the 40+ days waiting time.
First, AGAIN, this was not a FULLFILLING reason for what the scripture has said. DO NOT, again DO NOT take this as a true valid reason. this is just a thought.
but anyways, i'll make myslef more clear. you all take that sentence and skip wat i said after: "for the mother to be served more when having a female. you wont see this around the new world, but women, after giving birth, get a lot of help from reletives and friends and the fathers themselves would dedicate more time to serving them while that period."
the action here is being "served" and getting help from reletives. as you all SAID, and KNOW, "boys are generally preferred in tradtional societies". TO REDUCE THAT it's best to concentrate on the female baby for more time. tht's it. it's that simple to understand or to IGNORE.
I sense anger in your reply. I have no idea where that emanates from.You are asking me to ignore what you write.Why should I? Unless you put a disclaimer, I see no reason to do so.As far as I am concerned, I have not qouted you out of context to deliberately make your reply appear non-sense. I asked you, because I wanted to understand what you are trying to say, since I find the issue challenging.QT has put his question straightforward. Godislove250 deepened it. They did so ,because they care to understand and not to ignore or be ignored. I do not come here to ignore what people have to say.
Moreover,unless you provide me church sources that clarify about the issue of baptisim for boys and girls,I stand by what I said.Secondly, I failed to understand the connection between Why the mother is requested to wait for 80 days after the birth of a baby girl and your line "80 days are just tradition because bringing a female to life was not as important as bring a male. I do agree that baby boys are preferred in tarditional countries, simple because the boys take care of their parents at a later stage and that has nothing to do with the burning question at hand.
When God made those laws, he made them for everybody:East , West,North and South.His Words stand and are not open to various interpretations with the passage of time. If the Western society has different handling of the matter, it is because their society had changed and find it convenient to interpret scriptures to suit their way of life.
David. I. Macht, A Scientific Appreciation of Leviticus 12: 1-5,? JBL 52 (1933): PP 253-60.
David Macht was an outstanding Pharmacologist whose contribution to Medicine is enormous.He is the same guy who also conducted experiements on clean and unclean meats and found out that the unclean meats had greater quotient of toxcity that is hazrad to health in the long term.
Anyway, i have always thought that the 40 and 80 days are truly for the mother's sake like was said before, so that she may recover after giving birth. I always believed that the difference between the boy and girl is to remind us that the female fell in sin first, in some way echoing the words of St Paul when he said in 1Tim 2:
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
There might be biological reasons as suggested in the article, but I'd have to study it in depth to be able to judge the correctness of its content.
PS Isn't there something about this in Fr Tadros' commentary on Levites, or in some other book? I recall having a series of sermons in arabic about Levites, i'll dive into it and see if i can find a credible reason.
PPS the flying dutchman, that's just hilarious dude ;D
Mozes wrote: How did Moses compose the chapter detailing the creation of the world? If you go to Psalm 103,you will read ' He made known his ways to Moses, his deeds to the people of Israel'.Moreover the Psalmist includes the creation narrative.The 1st Chapter of Genesis seems to be one part of the bible that was dicatated directly by God and taken down by man,just as God clearly tells John what to write in revelation when describling the end of the world.Don't you think,it is miraculous to note that the beginning of the bible that talks about the creation of the world and the end of the bible that talks about the end of the world was a direct revelation?
To come back to your Q, usually God inspired the writers to use their own insights,memory and outlook to shape his Word ,as is with Moses in the rest of his books, and so He overruled by inspiration of his Spirit that what resulted was what he wanted written.However, he gave the story of creation in direct revelation at the top of Mt Sinai. Hors, trust me, I did not make it up.The Bible does not tell us the reason as to why God ordered Moses to install that law.However, God does reveal his ways to mankind in his own time.There is always a valid reason to eveything He does. As Science is trying to come up with some magic formula to explain the big bang theory,there are so many things that Science tries to explain things of religious nature.Regarding this issue,at the request of religious tink-tankers, Medical science had conducted an experiemnt and found out that impurities after the birth of a female last longer to clear. I will do my very best to find the document for you,but I have read it.Now, was that analysis conclusive or not, or would I take it as final truth or valid explanation,that is another matter.
Hezekial,thank you so much for your response and lucid clarification.You seem to have good understanding of the Holy Scriptures.Would you or someone else ,for that matter, be so kind as to help me out with the Hebrews verse from the previous thread? I remember being confronted with that particlular verse from one of my non-christian friends and I was unable to defend the sacrament of repentance in the christian faith. Here is the link to the thread, http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=6769.msg91270#new
Many thanks,
"As you mentioned, the source is Leviticus 12. It is inclusive of the rites of circumcision of every male child as a seal of God's covenant with Abraham reflected by His promise of many descendants. The physiology of the mother following child birth and the postpartum secretions and hemorrhaging usually ceases in forty days. The doubling of the periods when a female is born is a reminder that the woman first transgressed against God's commands and then led Adam to sin as well. Therefore, just as her sin was doubled, her purification period is also doubled. "For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control (1 Tim 2:13-15)."
or wait, maybe i had read HG anba Yousef's answer before and it popped up in my head when i read this discussion lol ???