you know i did not read all that was written... forgive me... but I'll answer to what seems the topic is all about!
lets put it in a scenario...
I live a life of sin... yet God finds it in His grace, and I become a "good Christian" now I live a few years without sin, after I've done it all!
and inshallah I die! now I'm in front of God the Almighty, who is my judge, and on my side is Jesus the Christ... who is God, defending me! now my prosecutor, the devil is there and is stating that i did so much sin... for example i killed someone! now God agrees, He says, I did say whoever kills by the sword will be killed by the sword... then Jesus will come to my defense... and He'll say, "yes whoever kills by the sword is killed by the sword, and that's why when he was doing a reach out to one of the "thugs" he was strangled and killed... so he paid for it on earth... so by all means he does not deserve to be in the everlasting punishment, for he did change his ways, and because of Your justice, he was killed the same way he killed! thus by all means we cannot hold it against him... he belongs in Heaven now!"
the same goes with diseases and etc... if you think God is doing it to get back at you! than you don't know God! God does all for your best... to have the right judgment to have you live with Him in the everlasting bliss!
also dont forget... that sometimes the disease is not just because you did something wrong... sometimes you are diseased for God's glory... for example the late abouna Bishoy Kamel, when he had cancer he was able to reach much more of the sinners, that he couldn't reach when he had his full power!
and also don't forget saint Moses the black... he had the chance to leave before he was killed... but yet chose to stay and be killed so he'd pay for killing others on earth! I think saint Moses the black knew what he was doing!
don't let this topic bother you habibi... know that God does all for a reason... and in the end He's doing it for your best, and nothing less!
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92648#msg92648 date=1215890048] [quote author=Severus link=topic=6917.msg92646#msg92646 date=1215889749] Now, whether or not God will count the sin against you depends on whether: a. You are truly, deeply sorry and really ask God's forgiveness; and b. You vow to never (or rather, try your absolute hardest) commit the sin again.
Wow.. so, let's say someone repents for a sin.. and they DO THE SAME sin again. WHat is their fate if they do not repent nor confess it?
They must confess it again. What an odd question...if they do not, then they are held accountable.
When you confess a sin, it is wiped from the records, so to speak. If you do it again, it goes on again.
I think God will teach u a lesson if u do something to others. I mean, let's say that someone CONTINUALLY confesses and repents the SAME sin, day after day, time after time. WHat's stopping God from teaching that person a lesson so that he doesn't continue sinning.
What I do NOT understand (and I'm posing this as a question) are the following situations:
QUESTION1: * If someone does something cruel against someone else, and he repents for it, and does the same thing again to the same person - what is his outcome before God?? QUESTION2: * The example of Jacob is ideal here to explain the next question: Jacob deceived his father Isaac,and likewise, he was also deceived (when he came to get married). Now, my sunday school teacher said this, and my FoC. Now, was Jacob treated in a way, or did this happen to him because God wished to teach him a lesson, or did God allow it so that he would be punished for what he had done to his father??? And finally, does God treat us in the same way TODAY!?? YES OR NO?
Now, Maged wishes that the topic remains focused and that there are no side conversations. My questions are clear. I'm stating my ignorance with respect to 2 issues, and stating my belief concerning one issue. Let there be no confusion.
When u respond, please state the question number to which u are responding to. So its clear. let's have NO personal attacks. Just focus on the questions.
QUESTION1: * If someone does something cruel against someone else, and he repents for it, and does the same thing again to the same person - what is his outcome before God??
repentance is also the change of way! if a person does not changes his/her way, then they did not repent! but their outcome is for God to decide... God and God alone!
QUESTION2: * The example of Jacob is ideal here to explain the next question: Jacob deceived his father Isaac,and likewise, he was also deceived (when he came to get married). Now, my sunday school teacher said this, and my FoC. Now, was Jacob treated in a way, or did this happen to him because God wished to teach him a lesson, or did God allow it so that he would be punished for what he had done to his father??? And finally, does God treat us in the same way TODAY!?? YES OR NO?
God allowed the best for Jacob... period... whether you call it punishment or not... God worked for the best of his salvation!
"as He was and shall He be He is from generation to generation and on to all the ages of the ages... so be it!" so that's a YES!
[quote author=SuperMAN(BAM) link=topic=6917.msg92651#msg92651 date=1215891468] you know i did not read all that was written... forgive me... but I'll answer to what seems the topic is all about!
lets put it in a scenario...
I live a life of sin... yet God finds it in His grace, and I become a "good Christian" now I live a few years without sin, after I've done it all!
and inshallah I die! now I'm in front of God the Almighty, who is my judge, and on my side is Jesus the Christ... who is God, defending me! now my prosecutor, the devil is there and is stating that i did so much sin... for example i killed someone! now God agrees, He says, I did say whoever kills by the sword will be killed by the sword... then Jesus will come to my defense... and He'll say, "yes whoever kills by the sword is killed by the sword, and that's why when he was doing a reach out to one of the "thugs" he was strangled and killed... so he paid for it on earth... so by all means he does not deserve to be in the everlasting punishment, for he did change his ways, and because of Your justice, he was killed the same way he killed! thus by all means we cannot hold it against him... he belongs in Heaven now!"
the same goes with diseases and etc... if you think God is doing it to get back at you! than you don't know God! God does all for your best... to have the right judgment to have you live with Him in the everlasting bliss!
also dont forget... that sometimes the disease is not just because you did something wrong... sometimes you are diseased for God's glory... for example the late abouna Bishoy Kamel, when he had cancer he was able to reach much more of the sinners, that he couldn't reach when he had his full power!
and also don't forget saint Moses the black... he had the chance to leave before he was killed... but yet chose to stay and be killed so he'd pay for killing others on earth! I think saint Moses the black knew what he was doing!
don't let this topic bother you habibi... know that God does all for a reason... and in the end He's doing it for your best, and nothing less!
Something I don't get on St Moses the Black:
When he confessed his sins, there was an angel who wiped the sins off a black board thus making it white, also there's a verse (i think )that says that when we confess, our sins are thrown into an ocean, thus forgotten
So had St Moses left and not died by the sword, he still would have gone to heaven right??? I mean we don't have to punish ourselves...
And one more thing concerning punishment, I think we have to keep in mind that many so called punishments are simply consequences of our actions... If I smoke my whole life, and then I get lungcancer, I can hardly say this is God punishing me for my sins, but rather it's a consequence which I 'chose' for by smoking so much
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6917.msg92655#msg92655 date=1215893865] Something I don't get on St Moses the Black:
When he confessed his sins, there was an angel who wiped the sins off a black board thus making it white, also there's a verse (i think )that says that when we confess, our sins are thrown into an ocean, thus forgotten
So had St Moses left and not died by the sword, he still would have gone to heaven right??? I mean we don't have to punish ourselves...
And one more thing concerning punishment, I think we have to keep in mind that many so called punishments are simply consequences of our actions... If I smoke my whole life, and then I get lungcancer, I can hardly say this is God punishing me for my sins, but rather it's a consequence which I 'chose' for by smoking so much
God Bless Please pray for me
Godislove,
This questions shows that you are following this discussion perfectly. This is the next logical question to ask. It doesn't make sense to me either.
So, that's 3 questions I'd like to have answered (if u please).
Now, with all due respect, u all know that I don't have an FoC, so, tomorrow, could someone ask ur FoC the answer and then just post it??
I'd even be happy to have a response from Maged or Iqbal... but.. I know they are busy lately.
Sorry, I haven't had time to go through this thread in detail (just a quick skim), but I'd recommend "On Wealth and Poverty" by St. John Chrysostom. He speaks in detail about this subject in a series of sermons on Lazarus and the Rich Man.
In short, sometimes God allows us to have a certain amount of suffering on earth in order that we may enjoy eternity with him. Perhaps we are not virtuous enough to enter His Kingdom, but out of His infinite love and mercy, he lets us to go through certain hardships here that make up for our own shortcomings.
Conversely, sometimes we have done just a little bit of good but have lived mostly evil and wretched lives. This was the case with the rich man. Perhaps he, at some point, did one little good thing. God rewarded even the little good he may have done by a prosperous earthly life, but he was found unworthy of the Kingdom of Heaven.
My internet connection is going slow. It is capped :(
There is a section in the book life of repentance and purity by our pope about earthly punishments. Punishments for God's saints. His Holiness covers it well.
btw Moses the prophet did not enter the promise land because he acted unwisely when he struck the rock with his rod and said to the israelites "hear now you rebels, must I strike the rock to get water" I don't know exacly what he said.. I am not sure what he did wrong. I think it was because he did not trust God would bring water from the rock. He got to see the promise land from afar though.
Moses also had to wander in the wilderness for 40 years because he killed the egyptian man. I do not know if it was all punishment or to learn some virtues like calmness and meekness. I think I read it was his punishment but I am not sure. I wonder if I should just not speak. lol.
Please pardon me for re-opening this thread, but in an effort to satisfy one of Vas's endless topics.... I'm giving him the chance to ask 1 additional question only...
I'd like your cooperation in answering his question in that the answers are short and to the point... Please.
I don't want 5 pages of additional discussions - no offense to anyone.
Why did St. Moses the Black wish to be killed when the Monastery was raided by thugs? As far as I recall, he wished to die to satisfy the fact that he had killed others before he was a Christian. But if God forgave his sins, then why did he need the additional self-inflicted punishment?
That is also because our Lord said, those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, which has been held true for him and many many other martyrs who actually served in the army and took others lives.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6917.msg92842#msg92842 date=1216176249] That is also because our Lord said, those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, which has been held true for him and many many other martyrs who actually served in the army and took others lives.
Guys, our blessed Pope has answered this question. In fact, he's answered this entire topic!!
I think its pointless having discussions where people just give their opinions and then u close the topic assuming that their opinions were the right answers. NOT AT ALL.
We definately need a priest in this forum who can direct us to such literature, as its official. And as always, H.H ALWAYS gives references from the Holy Bible. I don't know how he does it. It seems very elementary, but yet he manages to make the words of the Bible come to life in his books.
I strongly recommend that you read it. Many of u who posted are mistaken in your opinions.
There are earthly and heavenly punishments. H.H was saying that Adam and Eve's sin - for example, there were punishments: The price of sin was death. Although God paid the price for their sin, and died for them, this still did not mean that they escaped earthly punishment.
So.. there IS earthly punishment for your sins.
Doesn't any of this interest anyone!?? Many of u had an attitude that the Pope even criticised in his book. I havent finished reading it, but i truly suggest that we keep this thread open, we ALL read his holiness's book and we talk about it using it as a reference. Closing this thread in this state is not going to help anyone.
I dont believe God punishes people for their sins on earth, because he hasnt judged them yet. God may chastise you wake you up a bit and get you goin in the right direction but thats all. I think when you sin you are drawn away from the presence of God and into the hands of the devil. And that is where you suffer.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6917.msg92847#msg92847 date=1216180781] I dont believe God punishes people for their sins on earth, because he hasnt judged them yet. God may chastise you wake you up a bit and get you goin in the right direction but thats all. I think when you sin you are drawn away from the presence of God and into the hands of the devil. And that is where you suffer.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sorry,but the Pope has said otherwise.
Please read page 126 of H.H's book, but here's a small quote:
All of these punishments on earth are different to the eternal punishment. The eternal punishment is eliminated by repentance and the earthly punishment remains intact.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92848#msg92848 date=1216180977] [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6917.msg92847#msg92847 date=1216180781] I dont believe God punishes people for their sins on earth, because he hasnt judged them yet. God may chastise you wake you up a bit and get you goin in the right direction but thats all. I think when you sin you are drawn away from the presence of God and into the hands of the devil. And that is where you suffer.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sorry,but the Pope has said otherwise.
Please read page 126 of H.H's book, but here's a small quote:
All of these punishments on earth are different to the eternal punishment. The eternal punishment is eliminated by repentance and the earthly punishment remains intact.
I really hate to dissagree with the Pope, I dont think hes wrong exactly but maybe when he said earthly punishment he meant chastisement. Some chastisement might even be permanent, but they are still jsut chastisements. I dont think God punishes anyone until he has Judged them on that final Day.
If one was to commit murder, and confesses and is absolved, he no longer suffers from the heavenly punishment, but he may still suffer the death penalty as deemed in a court of law.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6917.msg92850#msg92850 date=1216182544] No, punishment is the correct term.
If one was to commit murder, and confesses and is absolved, he no longer suffers from the heavenly punishment, but he may still suffer the death penalty as deemed in a court of law.
Severus seems to be on the right path here. But I do believe that the Pope is even talking about the granular level of punishment.
For example, a lie.. this has an earthly punishment - that apparently is inescapable. This is why this subject is interesting:
For every sin, it has its earthly punishment. Repentance nullifies the heavenly or eternal punishment. Its a LIKE FOR LIKE repercussion apparently.
In life, you are in fact paid back. So, the saying :"What goes around comes around" is in fact true. Those who disagreed with this are then disagreeing with the Pope. This is the repurcussion of our sins. It has an effect.
But what is the MOST interesting of all in this discussion is the following concept or idea:
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6917.msg92862#msg92862 date=1216212838] I can't understand why things are so complicated here.
If we sin, there are punishments both in this life and the next.
If we repent, then God in his mercy will forget our sins.
If we don't repent, and are not punished on earth (extremely unlikely), then we will be punished in eternity.
Simple.
Joe,
Now, let me enlighten you here.
If u agree that we are always punished on earth for our sins (and yet repentence nullifies our eternal punishment), then if say something bad happens to you, for whatever reason, or u suffer in anyway in this life, there's a high chance then that such suffering could be related to a sin that you've committed.
Also, one point for me still remains unclear:
What is the effect then of not passing through any suffering or punishment for your sins on earth?? What happens? I think this question can be answered simply if someone finds out why St. Moses the Black decided to punish himself by being killed when the Monastery was attacked.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92864#msg92864 date=1216213561] If u agree that we are always punished on earth for our sins (and yet repentence nullifies our eternal punishment), then if say something bad happens to you, for whatever reason, or u suffer in anyway in this life, there's a high chance then that such suffering could be related to a sin that you've committed.
Yes.... "if something bad happens to you" then it could be due to sin..... whats the question here?
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92864#msg92864 date=1216213561] What is the effect then of not passing through any suffering or punishment for your sins on earth?? What happens?
You will pass through sufferings on earth for your sins, rest assured. If you didn't (a hypothetical scenario) then you would simply be punished in hell.
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6917.msg92866#msg92866 date=1216215578] then you would simply be punished in hell.
It seems clear to me.
pray for me
joe
Well..joe, with all due respect, it wasn't so obvious to me. Are u sure u go to hell if u avoid punishment on earth?? That's why St. Moses wanted to be killed?? Which part of H.H's book does he say/mention that??
Joe, u know what.. what do u think of this:
All the disciples who denied, or betrayed Christ died through beheading or physical suffering. All, except St. John, who died at a ripe old age living in patmos (on a beach). Is that co-incidence, or is it also punishment for their denial and running away from the Cross??
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92868#msg92868 date=1216219801] All the disciples who denied, or betrayed Christ died through beheading or physical suffering. All, except St. John, who died at a ripe old age living in patmos (on a beach). Is that co-incidence, or is it also punishment for their denial and running away from the Cross??
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6917.msg92870#msg92870 date=1216221317] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92868#msg92868 date=1216219801] All the disciples who denied, or betrayed Christ died through beheading or physical suffering. All, except St. John, who died at a ripe old age living in patmos (on a beach). Is that co-incidence, or is it also punishment for their denial and running away from the Cross??
That was a prophecy from Jesus Himslef.....
I just noticed a pattern, but I didnt think much of it. That the only person NOT to have denied, but to stay through until the end and be with Christ at the Cross, was st. John, and he had a pretty good life after that.
God will not punish you for every single sin u do, as our sins are numerous, but if u are close to God, be sure that He will not leave u UNPUNISHED. Never. In fact, the Pope is saying that none of us are better than David nor Moses whom God INSISTED on punishing (of course with earthly punishments!).
i really believe that once u repent truly for a sin, the punishments will happen. And to answer some questions, the punishments are there to teach us lessons. But to call them "chastisements" is wrong. No. The Pope is careful with his words. These are truly punishments. We do learn from them, yes (and they make us grow) - sure! But from what I've read, and from what I've understood, God wants to punish us for our sins when we repent as like St Moses the Black's death: What we did to others will happen to us (i.e. he who kills by the sword, will die by the sword). I really feel this is the truth. Yes, God is love, and in His Love, He wants us to grow and be responsible for our actions. If Christ tasted the bitter cup of death that we should have tasted to nullify our eternal punishment, then this sacrifice should not be treated with disregard. We cannot sin and think nothing of it. There is a price to pay still.
I have no more questions on this issue. The Pope's book clarified everything. If u wanna close it, u can close it now unless anyone disagrees.
let me just clarify one thing, when we say God is punishing we mean he is ALLOWING certain bad things to happen to you, but it is not him who is actually doing the bad things. Does everyone agree with this?
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6917.msg92888#msg92888 date=1216268088] let me just clarify one thing, when we say God is punishing we mean he is ALLOWING certain bad things to happen to you, but it is not him who is actually doing the bad things. Does everyone agree with this?
When the Pope says "God insists on punishing" Moses, and when Moses begs Him for forgiveness, God tells him not to even talk about it : he will NOT enter the promised land. This way of talking, gives me the impression that God punishes you.
The same way your parents my insist on punishing you if you have stolen something, hurt someone, or done anything to cause them any dishonour.
You cannot look at their punishment as something bad.. but rather something they deserved. Punishment doesn't always have to be negative, although at times it can be painful to endure.
Such punishment is meant to prepare you for the eternal kingdom. This is not a bad thing, although at times living that punishment could be very painful.
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=6917.msg92874#msg92874 date=1216242985] Ey Qt: check out this cause we had a simulair discussion a few years ago on this forum, you might find it interesting ;)
Yes, I see. I will tell u now something that abouna said to me many years ago that seems to fit well in this point in time in my life:
He said: "When you make the Orban, and prepare it, it is dough. You need to put it through fire in order to kill the yeast. Only after it has been in the fire, then it can be worthy now to be changed into the body of Christ".
The yeast, in the OT resembled sin. So, to purify us from sin, sometimes God will chastise us. In His perfect way, and in His loving way, He will teach us. I think we agree.
But one doesn't always have to commit a sin to be chastised. God knows our hearts and sees what weaknesses we have, and can teach us a lesson BEFORE we do something wrong. This is also chastisement.
No no no no no no... There is ALSO punishment. I'm sorry. Earthly punishment. The Pope himself mentioned that: PLEASE READ HIS BOOK AGAIN. He clearly states time and time and time and time again that earthly punishments remain intact. Heavenly punishments are nullified by repentance.
Did Moses gain anything or benefit in anyway by not being allowed to enter the promised land? Did David gain anything when God did not allow him to build His temple despite the fact that he had prepared everything for its establishment?? THe fact that his own son tried to kill him was a chastisement: He should know that we are all someone's son and daughter.. and Uriah was a brother to him, and a sincere servant. He didnt look at Uriah in this way, and so God taught Him a lesson: Here.. your son now will try and kill u!! How do u like it!?? What u did to another man, will also happen to u!!! PERIOD. There is both chastisement AND punishment here.
I think when someone is close to God, and they go through suffering, you can know whether God has punished u or chastised u. U will know!! I'm 10000% sure. WHy wouldn't He punish you???
Heck, even David knew!! After all these things happened, someone swore at King David.. I don't remember, but it was some beggar, or soemthing like that.. and one of David's men was about to kill or do something to this man that insulted the King. David said "No! Leave him, it is the Lord who speaks to me through him" (something like that). We know when we are being chastised, and our punishemnt is also known to us. ANBA ANGELOS EVEN SAID THIS ONCE TO ME, but it was for a persoanl situation and I didnt really make the link until now during this topic.
Look.. If I'm a kid and playing with fire, and my dad sees me.. he can chastise me by allowing me to see the harmful effects of fire. In His wisdom, He can teach me. But if I do something wrong, and I KNOW its wrong, and I do it, I will be punished. THis is important. If God punished Moses for his sins and David too, are we above them?? The Pope CLEARLY uses the word "PUNISHMENT"...I've been involved with the translation of hundreds of books, ESPECIALLY those of the Pope and the Keraza, and I tell u, if the Pope meant chastise - it would have been translated that way.
When I'm punished in an earthly way, this is temporary. Is it God causing me this pain, or did I bring it on myself??? I brought it on myself. If my dad tells me :"Look: STEALING IS WRONG. OK Son??? If u steal, I will punish you". Its fair. God is just. But, He will not let me suffer eternally. No.
Look, if u are not happy, take it up with the Pope, or the person that translated that book (unfortunately, that book didn't come from our home... others did), but I know the Pope, He only choses the best to do his translation, who have a strong spiritual background and good english/arabic skills. (yeah, don't worry, I wasn't asked to translate.. i just ended up taking the blessing from others who did the hard work).
Comments
lets put it in a scenario...
I live a life of sin... yet God finds it in His grace, and I become a "good Christian" now I live a few years without sin, after I've done it all!
and inshallah I die! now I'm in front of God the Almighty, who is my judge, and on my side is Jesus the Christ... who is God, defending me! now my prosecutor, the devil is there and is stating that i did so much sin... for example i killed someone! now God agrees, He says, I did say whoever kills by the sword will be killed by the sword... then Jesus will come to my defense... and He'll say, "yes whoever kills by the sword is killed by the sword, and that's why when he was doing a reach out to one of the "thugs" he was strangled and killed... so he paid for it on earth... so by all means he does not deserve to be in the everlasting punishment, for he did change his ways, and because of Your justice, he was killed the same way he killed! thus by all means we cannot hold it against him... he belongs in Heaven now!"
the same goes with diseases and etc... if you think God is doing it to get back at you! than you don't know God! God does all for your best... to have the right judgment to have you live with Him in the everlasting bliss!
also dont forget... that sometimes the disease is not just because you did something wrong... sometimes you are diseased for God's glory... for example the late abouna Bishoy Kamel, when he had cancer he was able to reach much more of the sinners, that he couldn't reach when he had his full power!
and also don't forget saint Moses the black... he had the chance to leave before he was killed... but yet chose to stay and be killed so he'd pay for killing others on earth! I think saint Moses the black knew what he was doing!
don't let this topic bother you habibi... know that God does all for a reason... and in the end He's doing it for your best, and nothing less!
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6917.msg92646#msg92646 date=1215889749]
Now, whether or not God will count the sin against you depends on whether:
a. You are truly, deeply sorry and really ask God's forgiveness; and
b. You vow to never (or rather, try your absolute hardest) commit the sin again.
Wow.. so, let's say someone repents for a sin.. and they DO THE SAME sin again.
WHat is their fate if they do not repent nor confess it?
They must confess it again. What an odd question...if they do not, then they are held accountable.
When you confess a sin, it is wiped from the records, so to speak. If you do it again, it goes on again.
OK..
THis is what I think or believe:
I think God will teach u a lesson if u do something to others. I mean, let's say that someone CONTINUALLY confesses and repents the SAME sin, day after day, time after time. WHat's stopping God from teaching that person a lesson so that he doesn't continue sinning.
What I do NOT understand (and I'm posing this as a question) are the following situations:
QUESTION1: * If someone does something cruel against someone else, and he repents for it, and does the same thing again to the same person - what is his outcome before God??
QUESTION2: * The example of Jacob is ideal here to explain the next question: Jacob deceived his father Isaac,and likewise, he was also deceived (when he came to get married). Now, my sunday school teacher said this, and my FoC. Now, was Jacob treated in a way, or did this happen to him because God wished to teach him a lesson, or did God allow it so that he would be punished for what he had done to his father??? And finally, does God treat us in the same way TODAY!?? YES OR NO?
Now, Maged wishes that the topic remains focused and that there are no side conversations. My questions are clear. I'm stating my ignorance with respect to 2 issues, and stating my belief concerning one issue. Let there be no confusion.
When u respond, please state the question number to which u are responding to. So its clear. let's have NO personal attacks. Just focus on the questions.
Gents,
Can we focus on the above 2 questions? Thanks.
God allowed the best for Jacob... period... whether you call it punishment or not... God worked for the best of his salvation!
"as He was and shall He be He is from generation to generation and on to all the ages of the ages... so be it!"
so that's a YES!
you know i did not read all that was written... forgive me... but I'll answer to what seems the topic is all about!
lets put it in a scenario...
I live a life of sin... yet God finds it in His grace, and I become a "good Christian" now I live a few years without sin, after I've done it all!
and inshallah I die! now I'm in front of God the Almighty, who is my judge, and on my side is Jesus the Christ... who is God, defending me! now my prosecutor, the devil is there and is stating that i did so much sin... for example i killed someone! now God agrees, He says, I did say whoever kills by the sword will be killed by the sword... then Jesus will come to my defense... and He'll say, "yes whoever kills by the sword is killed by the sword, and that's why when he was doing a reach out to one of the "thugs" he was strangled and killed... so he paid for it on earth... so by all means he does not deserve to be in the everlasting punishment, for he did change his ways, and because of Your justice, he was killed the same way he killed! thus by all means we cannot hold it against him... he belongs in Heaven now!"
the same goes with diseases and etc... if you think God is doing it to get back at you! than you don't know God! God does all for your best... to have the right judgment to have you live with Him in the everlasting bliss!
also dont forget... that sometimes the disease is not just because you did something wrong... sometimes you are diseased for God's glory... for example the late abouna Bishoy Kamel, when he had cancer he was able to reach much more of the sinners, that he couldn't reach when he had his full power!
and also don't forget saint Moses the black... he had the chance to leave before he was killed... but yet chose to stay and be killed so he'd pay for killing others on earth! I think saint Moses the black knew what he was doing!
don't let this topic bother you habibi... know that God does all for a reason... and in the end He's doing it for your best, and nothing less!
Something I don't get on St Moses the Black:
When he confessed his sins, there was an angel who wiped the sins off a black board thus making it white, also there's a verse (i think )that says that when we confess, our sins are thrown into an ocean, thus forgotten
So had St Moses left and not died by the sword, he still would have gone to heaven right??? I mean we don't have to punish ourselves...
And one more thing concerning punishment, I think we have to keep in mind that many so called punishments are simply consequences of our actions...
If I smoke my whole life, and then I get lungcancer, I can hardly say this is God punishing me for my sins, but rather it's a consequence which I 'chose' for by smoking so much
God Bless
Please pray for me
Something I don't get on St Moses the Black:
When he confessed his sins, there was an angel who wiped the sins off a black board thus making it white, also there's a verse (i think )that says that when we confess, our sins are thrown into an ocean, thus forgotten
So had St Moses left and not died by the sword, he still would have gone to heaven right??? I mean we don't have to punish ourselves...
And one more thing concerning punishment, I think we have to keep in mind that many so called punishments are simply consequences of our actions...
If I smoke my whole life, and then I get lungcancer, I can hardly say this is God punishing me for my sins, but rather it's a consequence which I 'chose' for by smoking so much
God Bless
Please pray for me
Godislove,
This questions shows that you are following this discussion perfectly. This is the next logical question to ask. It doesn't make sense to me either.
So, that's 3 questions I'd like to have answered (if u please).
Now, with all due respect, u all know that I don't have an FoC, so, tomorrow, could someone ask ur FoC the answer and then just post it??
I'd even be happy to have a response from Maged or Iqbal... but.. I know they are busy lately.
Any official response would be good.
Thanks
Hi QT,
Sorry, I haven't had time to go through this thread in detail (just a quick skim), but I'd recommend "On Wealth and Poverty" by St. John Chrysostom. He speaks in detail about this subject in a series of sermons on Lazarus and the Rich Man.
In short, sometimes God allows us to have a certain amount of suffering on earth in order that we may enjoy eternity with him. Perhaps we are not virtuous enough to enter His Kingdom, but out of His infinite love and mercy, he lets us to go through certain hardships here that make up for our own shortcomings.
Conversely, sometimes we have done just a little bit of good but have lived mostly evil and wretched lives. This was the case with the rich man. Perhaps he, at some point, did one little good thing. God rewarded even the little good he may have done by a prosperous earthly life, but he was found unworthy of the Kingdom of Heaven.
I hope that helps.
Please pray for me.
tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/Repentan/index.html
My internet connection is going slow. It is capped :(
There is a section in the book life of repentance and purity by our pope about earthly punishments. Punishments for God's saints. His Holiness covers it well.
btw Moses the prophet did not enter the promise land because he acted unwisely when he struck the rock with his rod and said to the israelites "hear now you rebels, must I strike the rock to get water" I don't know exacly what he said.. I am not sure what he did wrong. I think it was because he did not trust God would bring water from the rock. He got to see the promise land from afar though.
Moses also had to wander in the wilderness for 40 years because he killed the egyptian man. I do not know if it was all punishment or to learn some virtues like calmness and meekness. I think I read it was his punishment but I am not sure. I wonder if I should just not speak. lol.
Vas,
This is the end... you have the answer in the form of a book written by HH ...
This topic is over.
Maged
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Please pardon me for re-opening this thread, but in an effort to satisfy one of Vas's endless topics.... I'm giving him the chance to ask 1 additional question only...
I'd like your cooperation in answering his question in that the answers are short and to the point... Please.
I don't want 5 pages of additional discussions - no offense to anyone.
Thank You In Advance...
That is also because our Lord said, those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, which has been held true for him and many many other martyrs who actually served in the army and took others lives.
Guys, our blessed Pope has answered this question. In fact, he's answered this entire topic!!
I think its pointless having discussions where people just give their opinions and then u close the topic assuming that their opinions were the right answers. NOT AT ALL.
We definately need a priest in this forum who can direct us to such literature, as its official. And as always, H.H ALWAYS gives references from the Holy Bible. I don't know how he does it. It seems very elementary, but yet he manages to make the words of the Bible come to life in his books.
I strongly recommend that you read it. Many of u who posted are mistaken in your opinions.
There are earthly and heavenly punishments. H.H was saying that Adam and Eve's sin - for example, there were punishments: The price of sin was death. Although God paid the price for their sin, and died for them, this still did not mean that they escaped earthly punishment.
So.. there IS earthly punishment for your sins.
Doesn't any of this interest anyone!?? Many of u had an attitude that the Pope even criticised in his book. I havent finished reading it, but i truly suggest that we keep this thread open, we ALL read his holiness's book and we talk about it using it as a reference. Closing this thread in this state is not going to help anyone.
I dont believe God punishes people for their sins on earth, because he hasnt judged them yet. God may chastise you wake you up a bit and get you goin in the right direction but thats all. I think when you sin you are drawn away from the presence of God and into the hands of the devil. And that is where you suffer.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sorry,but the Pope has said otherwise.
Please read page 126 of H.H's book, but here's a small quote:
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6917.msg92847#msg92847 date=1216180781]
I dont believe God punishes people for their sins on earth, because he hasnt judged them yet. God may chastise you wake you up a bit and get you goin in the right direction but thats all. I think when you sin you are drawn away from the presence of God and into the hands of the devil. And that is where you suffer.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sorry,but the Pope has said otherwise.
Please read page 126 of H.H's book, but here's a small quote:
I really hate to dissagree with the Pope, I dont think hes wrong exactly but maybe when he said earthly punishment he meant chastisement. Some chastisement might even be permanent, but they are still jsut chastisements. I dont think God punishes anyone until he has Judged them on that final Day.
If one was to commit murder, and confesses and is absolved, he no longer suffers from the heavenly punishment, but he may still suffer the death penalty as deemed in a court of law.
No, punishment is the correct term.
If one was to commit murder, and confesses and is absolved, he no longer suffers from the heavenly punishment, but he may still suffer the death penalty as deemed in a court of law.
Severus seems to be on the right path here. But I do believe that the Pope is even talking about the granular level of punishment.
For example, a lie.. this has an earthly punishment - that apparently is inescapable. This is why this subject is interesting:
For every sin, it has its earthly punishment. Repentance nullifies the heavenly or eternal punishment. Its a LIKE FOR LIKE repercussion apparently.
In life, you are in fact paid back. So, the saying :"What goes around comes around" is in fact true. Those who disagreed with this are then disagreeing with the Pope. This is the repurcussion of our sins. It has an effect.
But what is the MOST interesting of all in this discussion is the following concept or idea:
What happens if we are NOT punished on earth??
If we sin, there are punishments both in this life and the next.
If we repent, then God in his mercy will forget our sins.
If we don't repent, and are not punished on earth (extremely unlikely), then we will be punished in eternity.
Simple.
I can't understand why things are so complicated here.
If we sin, there are punishments both in this life and the next.
If we repent, then God in his mercy will forget our sins.
If we don't repent, and are not punished on earth (extremely unlikely), then we will be punished in eternity.
Simple.
Joe,
Now, let me enlighten you here.
If u agree that we are always punished on earth for our sins (and yet repentence nullifies our eternal punishment), then if say something bad happens to you, for whatever reason, or u suffer in anyway in this life, there's a high chance then that such suffering could be related to a sin that you've committed.
Also, one point for me still remains unclear:
What is the effect then of not passing through any suffering or punishment for your sins on earth?? What happens? I think this question can be answered simply if someone finds out why St. Moses the Black decided to punish himself by being killed when the Monastery was attacked.
If u agree that we are always punished on earth for our sins (and yet repentence nullifies our eternal punishment), then if say something bad happens to you, for whatever reason, or u suffer in anyway in this life, there's a high chance then that such suffering could be related to a sin that you've committed.
Yes.... "if something bad happens to you" then it could be due to sin..... whats the question here?
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92864#msg92864 date=1216213561] What is the effect then of not passing through any suffering or punishment for your sins on earth?? What happens?
You will pass through sufferings on earth for your sins, rest assured. If you didn't (a hypothetical scenario) then you would simply be punished in hell.
It seems clear to me.
pray for me
joe
then you would simply be punished in hell.
It seems clear to me.
pray for me
joe
Well..joe, with all due respect, it wasn't so obvious to me. Are u sure u go to hell if u avoid punishment on earth?? That's why St. Moses wanted to be killed?? Which part of H.H's book does he say/mention that??
Joe, u know what.. what do u think of this:
All the disciples who denied, or betrayed Christ died through beheading or physical suffering. All, except St. John, who died at a ripe old age living in patmos (on a beach). Is that co-incidence, or is it also punishment for their denial and running away from the Cross??
All the disciples who denied, or betrayed Christ died through beheading or physical suffering. All, except St. John, who died at a ripe old age living in patmos (on a beach). Is that co-incidence, or is it also punishment for their denial and running away from the Cross??
That was a prophecy from Jesus Himslef.....
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92868#msg92868 date=1216219801]
All the disciples who denied, or betrayed Christ died through beheading or physical suffering. All, except St. John, who died at a ripe old age living in patmos (on a beach). Is that co-incidence, or is it also punishment for their denial and running away from the Cross??
That was a prophecy from Jesus Himslef.....
I just noticed a pattern, but I didnt think much of it. That the only person NOT to have denied, but to stay through until the end and be with Christ at the Cross, was st. John, and he had a pretty good life after that.
God will not punish you for every single sin u do, as our sins are numerous, but if u are close to God, be sure that He will not leave u UNPUNISHED. Never. In fact, the Pope is saying that none of us are better than David nor Moses whom God INSISTED on punishing (of course with earthly punishments!).
i really believe that once u repent truly for a sin, the punishments will happen. And to answer some questions, the punishments are there to teach us lessons. But to call them "chastisements" is wrong. No. The Pope is careful with his words. These are truly punishments. We do learn from them, yes (and they make us grow) - sure! But from what I've read, and from what I've understood, God wants to punish us for our sins when we repent as like St Moses the Black's death: What we did to others will happen to us (i.e. he who kills by the sword, will die by the sword). I really feel this is the truth. Yes, God is love, and in His Love, He wants us to grow and be responsible for our actions. If Christ tasted the bitter cup of death that we should have tasted to nullify our eternal punishment, then this sacrifice should not be treated with disregard. We cannot sin and think nothing of it. There is a price to pay still.
I have no more questions on this issue. The Pope's book clarified everything. If u wanna close it, u can close it now unless anyone disagrees.
cause we had a simulair discussion a few years ago on this forum, you might find it interesting ;)
consequences
let me just clarify one thing, when we say God is punishing we mean he is ALLOWING certain bad things to happen to you, but it is not him who is actually doing the bad things. Does everyone agree with this?
When the Pope says "God insists on punishing" Moses, and when Moses begs Him for forgiveness, God tells him not to even talk about it : he will NOT enter the promised land. This way of talking, gives me the impression that God punishes you.
The same way your parents my insist on punishing you if you have stolen something, hurt someone, or done anything to cause them any dishonour.
You cannot look at their punishment as something bad.. but rather something they deserved. Punishment doesn't always have to be negative, although at times it can be painful to endure.
Such punishment is meant to prepare you for the eternal kingdom. This is not a bad thing, although at times living that punishment could be very painful.
Ey Qt: check out this
cause we had a simulair discussion a few years ago on this forum, you might find it interesting ;)
consequences
Yes, I see. I will tell u now something that abouna said to me many years ago that seems to fit well in this point in time in my life:
He said: "When you make the Orban, and prepare it, it is dough. You need to put it through fire in order to kill the yeast. Only after it has been in the fire, then it can be worthy now to be changed into the body of Christ".
The yeast, in the OT resembled sin. So, to purify us from sin, sometimes God will chastise us. In His perfect way, and in His loving way, He will teach us. I think we agree.
But one doesn't always have to commit a sin to be chastised. God knows our hearts and sees what weaknesses we have, and can teach us a lesson BEFORE we do something wrong. This is also chastisement.
No no no no no no... There is ALSO punishment. I'm sorry. Earthly punishment. The Pope himself mentioned that: PLEASE READ HIS BOOK AGAIN. He clearly states time and time and time and time again that earthly punishments remain intact. Heavenly punishments are nullified by repentance.
Did Moses gain anything or benefit in anyway by not being allowed to enter the promised land?
Did David gain anything when God did not allow him to build His temple despite the fact that he had prepared everything for its establishment?? THe fact that his own son tried to kill him was a chastisement: He should know that we are all someone's son and daughter.. and Uriah was a brother to him, and a sincere servant. He didnt look at Uriah in this way, and so God taught Him a lesson: Here.. your son now will try and kill u!! How do u like it!?? What u did to another man, will also happen to u!!! PERIOD. There is both chastisement AND punishment here.
I think when someone is close to God, and they go through suffering, you can know whether God has punished u or chastised u. U will know!! I'm 10000% sure. WHy wouldn't He punish you???
Heck, even David knew!! After all these things happened, someone swore at King David.. I don't remember, but it was some beggar, or soemthing like that.. and one of David's men was about to kill or do something to this man that insulted the King. David said "No! Leave him, it is the Lord who speaks to me through him" (something like that). We know when we are being chastised, and our punishemnt is also known to us. ANBA ANGELOS EVEN SAID THIS ONCE TO ME, but it was for a persoanl situation and I didnt really make the link until now during this topic.
Look.. If I'm a kid and playing with fire, and my dad sees me.. he can chastise me by allowing me to see the harmful effects of fire. In His wisdom, He can teach me. But if I do something wrong, and I KNOW its wrong, and I do it, I will be punished. THis is important. If God punished Moses for his sins and David too, are we above them?? The Pope CLEARLY uses the word "PUNISHMENT"...I've been involved with the translation of hundreds of books, ESPECIALLY those of the Pope and the Keraza, and I tell u, if the Pope meant chastise - it would have been translated that way.
When I'm punished in an earthly way, this is temporary. Is it God causing me this pain, or did I bring it on myself??? I brought it on myself. If my dad tells me :"Look: STEALING IS WRONG. OK Son??? If u steal, I will punish you". Its fair. God is just. But, He will not let me suffer eternally. No.
Look, if u are not happy, take it up with the Pope, or the person that translated that book (unfortunately, that book didn't come from our home... others did), but I know the Pope, He only choses the best to do his translation, who have a strong spiritual background and good english/arabic skills. (yeah, don't worry, I wasn't asked to translate.. i just ended up taking the blessing from others who did the hard work).