Hi,
I'd like to know if the CoC agrees with this story:
A gay bishop (gene robinson) during the sunday mass (as he was talking) was screamed at by a member of the Church, telling (actually, more like shouting) him to "repent".
Is that correct what he did?
Comments
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7504484.stm
God Bless
Please pray for me
Its remarkable a gay bishop giving a sermon, and those sitting in the pews think he's very ungodly, yet quielty attending the mass. And then, they all stand up to sing a hymn together.
That's so british. lol
Ok first off, the bishop is gay, which is of course wrong, and thus the person who stood up and told him to go repent deserves a round of applause.
"This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,[a] he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." (1 Timothy 3:1-7)
On the subtelty point, and about us "hiding each other's sins", St. Paul, in one of his letters to St. Timothy told him something like "rebuke those in private who sinned in private and public who sinned in public". This man by being a gay bishop is commiting sin before all, and thus must be punished before all, so that no one falls because of him.
pray for me
joe
Is this the verse you meant? I'm sorry I didn't know about this verse when I answered, but in this case it makes perfect sence that one would rebuke the gay bishop openly, I mean he's a bishop for God's sake! As I said in my former post, I understand where that young man was coming from when he did what he did...
But the thing that bothers me is that people who are part of the Church of England can turn a blind eye to such things, I mean they must know that it's wrong, how can they still go to that church thinking to find salvation through it???
God Bless
Please pray for me
(good points by the way!)
Let me put it to u this way. Put homosexuality aside.
If this was our CHurch, and a Coptic Bishop did something wrong/illegal, would u still think it OK for someone to stand up and rebuke him?
I also found this verse, which is relevant to your question...
I know we are told to always obey and respect our leaders.., but we should never do something to compromise God, so if this is a personal sin of the bishop, then I think it best to be subtle, but if he makes a theological error or starts preaching wrong things on purpose then I think what Joseph said is in place... (just my opinion don't know if it's right.., luckily you guys are always there to correct my foolishnesses lol)
God Bless
Please pray for me
one thing we need to know, is bishops have a lot of blessing, even if they were to be wicked humans... you must always respect them, for their apostleship! and because of their apostleship, you are of no position to prosecute, or rebuke them... but bring it to their older brother, the pope to rebuke them or punish them!
also if you were to rebuke them in the middle of a gathering... what good would that do?! nothing but a headache for you and you might even become a stumbling block for others! so a person should do what is right by the right action, just like the law, if you see a policeman doing something illegal, you wont just confront him, that would not do much... but rather take him/her to the right authority!
If any bishop sins publicly, e.g. by spreading dogmatic heresies as was mentioned, then he must be punished/rebuked before all, so that the damage of such heresy doesn't spread.
If it is a private error, however, then subtlety is of the essence, and the sins commited in private can be rebuked in private.
However, as Bishoy pointed out, the bishop is the highest rank of the priesthood, and thus he deserves great respect for the honour of his position. Therefore the way the fault is corrected must also be thought out, and it may be best to bring it to the attention of a priest who could bring up the matter in private with the bishop, or the Pope as was pointed out by Bishoy.
pray for me
joe
I thought he seemed like a nice chap.
Anyway, one particular sunday, the deacons were doing a zaffa.. im not sure for what reason, but they were just coming around their final lap when they tried to go onto the step of the alter. This priest was blocking them.
The head deacon pushed the priest
the priest pushed the deacon.
Then the most remarkable thing happened:
The priest then managed to get the deacon's head in his left arm, and with his right arm, he started giving him jabs. It was quite a sight. Anyway, what was amazing was there was a bishop present. And ALL this bishop did was take the microphone and say to everyone: "Please do not be alarmed, he is not a real priest".
But then, he didn't say whether the deacon was real or not. I mean, I know deacon. But, there seems to be a kind of tendency to deify priests to the extent that they are immune to any problem or rebuke. THe bishop did not care to just shout at both of the men for making a noise in the CHurch, but he was concerned more for the image of the priest. I found that the most shocking.
THere was a priest in our CHurch once that, well.. i'm not sure if he was really a priest. Its hard to say. He just came into the CHurch wearing a black robe and had a long beard. Anyway.. he started taking confessions in the alter. lol
I thought he seemed like a nice chap.
Anyway, one particular sunday, the deacons were doing a zaffa.. im not sure for what reason, but they were just coming around their final lap when they tried to go onto the step of the alter. This priest was blocking them.
The head deacon pushed the priest
the priest pushed the deacon.
Then the most remarkable thing happened:
The priest then managed to get the deacon's head in his left arm, and with his right arm, he started giving him jabs. It was quite a sight. Anyway, what was amazing was there was a bishop present. And ALL this bishop did was take the microphone and say to everyone: "Please do not be alarmed, he is not a real priest".
But then, he didn't say whether the deacon was real or not. I mean, I know deacon. But, there seems to be a kind of tendency to deify priests to the extent that they are immune to any problem or rebuke. THe bishop did not care to just shout at both of the men for making a noise in the CHurch, but he was concerned more for the image of the priest. I found that the most shocking.
was that in a Coptic Church? that is just sad
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6927.msg92761#msg92761 date=1216122745]
THere was a priest in our CHurch once that, well.. i'm not sure if he was really a priest. Its hard to say. He just came into the CHurch wearing a black robe and had a long beard. Anyway.. he started taking confessions in the alter. lol
I thought he seemed like a nice chap.
Anyway, one particular sunday, the deacons were doing a zaffa.. im not sure for what reason, but they were just coming around their final lap when they tried to go onto the step of the alter. This priest was blocking them.
The head deacon pushed the priest
the priest pushed the deacon.
Then the most remarkable thing happened:
The priest then managed to get the deacon's head in his left arm, and with his right arm, he started giving him jabs. It was quite a sight. Anyway, what was amazing was there was a bishop present. And ALL this bishop did was take the microphone and say to everyone: "Please do not be alarmed, he is not a real priest".
But then, he didn't say whether the deacon was real or not. I mean, I know deacon. But, there seems to be a kind of tendency to deify priests to the extent that they are immune to any problem or rebuke. THe bishop did not care to just shout at both of the men for making a noise in the CHurch, but he was concerned more for the image of the priest. I found that the most shocking.
was that in a Coptic Church? that is just sad
Dude, is that even a serious question?? Of Course it's not...
PK
The same for any Bishop. If a bishop (whether Coptic or Catholic or anything) did anything wrong, and subdued all criticism or avoided any reproach thanks to his position, it could still lead others to stumble. So at the end of the day, during a mass, u agree that speaking out, telling a bishop that he's done something wrong and should repent , is in fact the best thing to do??
Well PK,
The same for any Bishop. If a bishop (whether Coptic or Catholic or anything) did anything wrong, and subdued all criticism or avoided any reproach thanks to his position, it could still lead others to stumble. So at the end of the day, during a mass, u agree that speaking out, telling a bishop that he's done something wrong and should repent , is in fact the best thing to do??
In my opinion, it's wrong. You should respect that Bishop and the Church. But it definately should not be ignored. Probably should be taken to the pope at least if this was a Coptic Bishop.
God Bless
Please pray for me
i am pretty sure the Pope would not give an apple if you tell Him that something like that happened.
lol
It was delicious. It was nice of him to give it to me. He looked a bit embarrassed. I'd have preferred an apology from the bishop. God forgive them.
I wasnt involved at all in that incident in Church, but in something completely different, where a bishop (and a priest) behaved in the most unchristian, ungodly, and criminal way imaginable.
In fact, what the bishop did was so cruel and so unholy, that I never even had to complain. Another bishop did it for me. I'm surprised i only got an apple.
Such attitudes make a mockery of reconciliation, it makes a mockery of church unity, and of holiness within the Christian Establishment.
I like the action Jesus took in the corrupt Church: Make a whip and beat them out of the Church!
lol, good idea??
But, by asking the question from this angle, it really makes a difference.
The israelites lived in injustice for many years, yet the "Lord heard their cries". Although sometimes God seems silent, life and faith in him would be different if someone told me :"No. God does not let injustices go... He punishes those He loves" - but apparently, He punishes no one. Nor does He seem to venge for the oppressed. He just stays silent.
I mean, REALLY silent.
Don't you think it's more christian to ask God to forgive them, I mean truly ask God to have mercy on them... Like St Stephan, St Mark and... GOD HIMSELF ????
Would you not be happy if they repented and found their way and tried to repay you for the injustice they commited against you if they could (for in true repentance one should try to set right what was done wrong?
God IS just, whether He thinks it just to punish or not, it's up to Him, He is the only one who knows what's in people's harts and what's best for them. Period.
God Bless
Please pray for me
When someone wrongs you, do you wish something really bad to happen to them???
Don't you think it's more christian to ask God to forgive them, I mean truly ask God to have mercy on them... Like St Stephan, St Mark and... GOD HIMSELF ????
Would you not be happy if they repented and found their way and tried to repay you for the injustice they commited against you if they could (for in true repentance one should try to set right what was done wrong?
God IS just, whether He thinks it just to punish or not, it's up to Him, He is the only one who knows what's in people's harts and what's best for them. Period.
God Bless
Please pray for me
Do u really want a serious answer?
This priest said to me the same thing. He said "U must forgive and forget".
I said to him, "Father, can I ask u a question?"
He said "OK. Look, let's say I lie to u, and my lie causes u much pain and grief, and many problems. Would u forgive me"
Abouna said :"Yes, I would forgive u"
I asked "Would u trust me again?"
He said "No. I wouldn't trust u again though!"
I said "Why not! Why don't u forget?"
THen abouna went quiet, and didnt know what to say.
THat's only one side of the story. Its not really about being unable to forgive. Its living the misery caused by 2 men. If I cut your arm off, and u forgave me, that's wonderful. But everytime u come to use your hand, you cannot help but remember that u do not have an arm. Apologising helps in that it means your suffering wasn't really a waste. Its a sense of respect. In the Church, its important to live in reconciliation. Its very confusing to have communion with a priest and a bishop who do openly wrong/ILLEGAL things and justify them and act so self righteous that they refuse to even apologise. They were so good at changing right from wrong to save their own skins.
Godislove, if u ask me to forgive - I forgive. If u ask me to forget - its hard, I have no arm. How can I forget that I have no arm? How can I forget that I had communion with 2 men that sinned and did not even acknowledge what they did??? Its strange... its a very surreal experience. Please don't judge me.
Simply I reacted to the part where you said God was silent as if you think He should punish those people, but we're not in a position to demand punishment for anyone because we ourselves have been saved from the just punishment for our sins, which is death
God is merciful with us, more than merciful, I think we should at least WANT to be merciful, even when it's hard... I'm not claiming to be able to forgive and forget , however, I do know that this is what's expected of us as Christians, as hard as it may seem.
I don't know the details of those clergy members and what they did to you, but I'm SURE God will deal with them the RIGHT, JUST and MERCIFUL way...
But remember the verse which says (something like): Those who are merciful will be treated with mercy
God Bless
Please pray for me
Please forgive me, maybe I replied in a bad manner, I don't want to judge you
Simply I reacted to the part where you said God was silent as if you think He should punish those people, but we're not in a position to demand punishment for anyone because we ourselves have been saved from the just punishment for our sins, which is death
God is merciful with us, more than merciful, I think we should at least WANT to be merciful, even when it's hard... I'm not claiming to be able to forgive and forget , however, I do know that this is what's expected of us as Christians, as hard as it may seem.
I don't know the details of those clergy members and what they did to you, but I'm SURE God will deal with them the RIGHT, JUST and MERCIFUL way...
But remember the verse which says (something like): Those who are merciful will be treated with mercy
God Bless
Please pray for me
By not punishing them, God is sending a clear message, to me personally, that either He doesn't care about immorality in His Chuch, nor does He care what happens to me. If they were punished, in my eyes, it would increase my faith. Seeing a bishop or priest do something immoral, is VERY disturbing.
Im in no position to condemn. Not at all. But to not see men of God being punished scares me, as - if someone did something immoral who was far from God, it wouldn't bother me because their existence is death: as being far from God is DEATH; but seeing a priest and bishop GIVE the Holy Communion whilst at the same time adament in something immoral is very disturbing. I cannot help feel that God just doesnt care.
Whether you're sure that they actually did something wrong, that it wasn't a misunderstanding or so, because it seems like what you think they did wrong is a very serious matter...
If what they did was indeed so terrible as you say, you still don't know whether God is punishing them or not (maybe He's punishing them privately)... Whether they've repented and are living in regret and guilt now or not...and believe me feelings of regret and guilt can be quite a punishment on themselves...
As I said before if God would punish everyone according to their sins, none of us would be saved and if He's merciful with us then why wouldn't He be with them? And if they don't repent then... well, we all know the outcome, I think that will be punishment enough
And maybe one should wonder: Do I want justice for the sake of justice or do I want revenge?
God Bless
Please pray for me