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Chalice
Ive always wondered and could never find a good enough reason as to why when Jeuss was in the garden he asked the father to "if it be possible, let this cup pass from me". #1 What EXACTLY does that mean, and #2 if it means that he shouldnt suffer, why would Jesus say that. I know that his human side might have been afraid of the pain it would go through but even his human side should have wanted to suffer for us if he really loved us. Why would he ask the father that it not happen. Im not at all saying Jesus wasnt 100% willing to die for us, but it just something that ive never really grasped 100%
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In every step of our Lord's Life, He showed us an example to follow. In this situation i think it was the same, people always complain about the trials they go through and always ask to have it taken away from them, i mean this is logical since no one really wants to suffer. But not many say regardless of what we want i will follow Gods will and endure this suffering till He is ready to take us out of it. On the note that he didn't want to suffer, thats wrong, he wanted to suffer 100%, thats how much He loved us that He wanted those pains instead of having them put on us. Hope this helped and if i've mispoken on anything please anybody feel free to correct me
I agree and i understand exactly what you meant, but I dunno, its just seems kinda weird that even Jesus would ask the God to take away the suffering. You said, we all do that, But Jesus isnt like "all" of us. Dont get me wrong i know what you meant and i definetly agree on it, but I dunno if thats the complete answer im looking for. I mean, Jesus was in a very emotional state when he said this so it wasnt really like he did it to show us that we should rely on Gods will. But even though what you said make sense, it jsut doesnt fill me up, you know what i mean??
Anba Bishoy explained this to me in detail. Our Lord Jesus Christ was both human and divine. He had human desires and human wills; He had divine desires and divine wills. His human desire, as any other human (yes, Christ was like any other human), was that He would not suffer. Nobody wants to go through pain. His divine desire was to go through pain and suffer for us. That is why He asks that the cup be taken away. However, His divine desire and will prevail and He does suffer.
I find this explanation a bit strange especially for our coptic church, fierce defenders of the MIAphysite theory. Jesus was ONE nature both 100% human and 100% divine. I think this implies that there is only ONE will.
But this explanation would make one believe that we say Jesus was diaphysite thus consisting of TWO natures, divine and human. With TWO wills.
I think the emphasis on the ONE nature in the COC makes this explanation seem strange, but I don't know enough about this subject to make such a conclusion so could someone please explain?
God Bless
Please pray for me
Anba Bishoy explained this to me in detail. Our Lord Jesus Christ was both human and divine. He had human desires and human wills; He had divine desires and divine wills. His human desire, as any other human (yes, Christ was like any other human), was that He would not suffer. Nobody wants to go through pain. His divine desire was to go through pain and suffer for us. That is why He asks that the cup be taken away. However, His divine desire and will prevail and He does suffer.
I'm out of my depth here so I'd like to ask some definitive information about this business about the wills of Christ. In my church there are two wills acknowledged, the human and the divine. I think this means that Our Saviour really had the freedom (maybe that's too srongly put) as a man to accept or even refuse the Divine will. The heresy of Monothelitism; linked I believe to Monophysitism, teaches that Christ had only a Divine will and therefore had not the freedom to refuse to accept the Cup.
Since the CoC is not Monophysite I guess it can't be Monothelite although I believe the emperor was trying to unite the empire to include Egyptian Monothelites, cut out the tongue of our father St Maximus the Confessor who opposed him.
Enlightenment please
In Christ
[quote author=Christ4Life link=topic=6971.msg93290#msg93290 date=1217102257]
Anba Bishoy explained this to me in detail. Our Lord Jesus Christ was both human and divine. He had human desires and human wills; He had divine desires and divine wills. His human desire, as any other human (yes, Christ was like any other human), was that He would not suffer. Nobody wants to go through pain. His divine desire was to go through pain and suffer for us. That is why He asks that the cup be taken away. However, His divine desire and will prevail and He does suffer.
I find this explanation a bit strange especially for our coptic church, fierce defenders of the MIAphysite theory. Jesus was ONE nature both 100% human and 100% divine. I think this implies that there is only ONE will.
But this explanation would make one believe that we say Jesus was diaphysite thus consisting of TWO natures, divine and human. With TWO wills.
I think the emphasis on the ONE nature in the COC makes this explanation seem strange, but I don't know enough about this subject to make such a conclusion so could someone please explain?
God Bless
Please pray for me
Well, I could try to get more information on this but... I'm pretty sure that's how he explained it and H.E. is one of the greatest theologians yet so... Anybody willing to elaborate?
i'm not sure if it is a real explanation but this is what my heart came up with
I'm not sure exactly why He said it, but it certainly shows us just how much He was going through for us. Jesus is a strong dude, and if what He went through was painful enough cause Him that much angst, it was definitely a pretty intense situation...
God bless!
Peace
I find that it is important to read what the Fathers had to say about issues such as these concerning Scripture. The Fathers, who were lead by the Holy Spirit and entrusted to direct their flock, which by extension refers to us, are the sources we should turn to. Therefore, allow me to present what Blessed Theophylact has written on Matthew 26:37-39:
He does not take all the disciples with Him, but only the three to whom He showed His glory on Mt. Tabor, lest the others see Him very heavy of heart while He as praying, and be scandalized. But He leaves even these three and goes away to a place to pray that was yet more private. He was sorrowful and heavy in accord with the divine plan, so as to confirm that He was truly man. For it is human nature to fear death; it was against our nature that death entered, and for this reason our nature flees from it. At the same time, Christ was sorrowful so that the devil would unknowingly leap upon Him, the God-man, and bear Him down to death as though He were mere man, and thus the devil himself would be crushed. Moreover, if the Lord had rushed towards death it would have given the Jews the excuse that they did not sin in killing one who was so eager to suffer. From this we learn not to throw ourselves into trials and temptations, but to pray that we may be delivered from them. For this reason, too, He did not move away a great distance, but was near the three disciples, that they might hear Him and remember when they themselves fell into temptations, and pray in the same manner. He calls His Passion a cup [as of wine], either because of the sleep which it brought, or because it became the cause of gladness and salvation for us. He wants the cup to be removed either to show that as a man subject to nature He pleads to escape death, as was said above, or because He did not wish the Jews to commit a sin so grave that on account of it the temple would be destroyed and the people perish. Yet He desires that His Father's will be done, that we also may learn that it is precisely when our nature draws us away from obedience that we must obey God and fulfill His will.
Let me also share some of the words of a few of the other Fathers that we may all be enlightened:
He took with Him the self-confident Peter, and the others' that they might see Him falling on His face and praying, and might learn not to think great things, but little things of themselves, and not to be hasty in promising, but careful in prayer. And therefore, He went forward a little, not to go far from them, but that He might be near them in His prayer. Also, He who had said above, Learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, now commendably humbling Himself, falls on His face. But He shows His devotion in His prayer, and as beloved and well-pleasing to His Father, He adds, Not as I will, but as you will, teaching us that we should pray, not that our own will, but that God's will, should be done. And as He began to have fear and sorrow, He prays accordingly that the cup of His Passion may pass from Him, yet not as He wills, but as His Father wills; wills, that is, not according to His Divine and impassible Substance, but according to His human and weak nature. For in taking upon Him the nature of human flesh, He fulfilled all the properties thereof, that it might be seen that He had flesh not in appearance only, but in reality. The believer indeed must in the first instance be willing to incur pain, seeing it leads to death, and he is a man of flesh; but if it be God's will, he acquiesces because he is a believer. For as we ought not to be too confident that we may not seem to make a boast of our own strength; so neither ought we to be distrustful, lest we should seem to charge God our helper with weakness. It is to be observed that Mark and Luke write the same, but John does not introduce this prayer of Jesus', that this cup may pass from Him, because the first three are rather occupied about Him, according to His human nature, John according to His divine. Otherwise; Jesus makes this petition, because He sees what the Jews will suffer for requiring His death.
Jerome: Whence He says emphatically, This cup, that is, of this people of the Jews, who, if they shall put Me to death, can have no excuse for their ignorance, seeing they hive the Law and the Prophets, who speak of Me.
Origen: Then again considering the benefit that would accrue to the whole world from His Passion, He says, But not as I will, but as you will; i.e. If it be possible for all these benefits which shall result from My Passion to be procured without it, let it pass from Me, and both the world be saved, and the Jews not be condemned in putting Me to death. But if the salvation of many cannot be procured without the destruction of a few, saving Your justice, let it not pass away. Scripture, in many places, speaks of passion as a cup that is drained; and it is drained by him, who in testimony suffers whatever is inflicted upon him. He sheds it, on the contrary, who denies in order to avoid suffering.
Blessed Augustine. And that none might think that He limited His Father's power, He said not, If you can do it, but If it may be or, If it be possible; as much as to say, If you will. For whatever God wills can be done, as Luke expresses more plainly; for he says not, If it be possible, but If you will.
Hilary: Otherwise; He says not, Let this cup pass away from Me, for that would be the speech of one who feared it; but He prays that it may pass not so as that He should be passed over, but that when it has passed from Him, it may go to another. His whole fear then is for those who were to suffer, and therefore He prays for those who were to suffer after Him, saying, Let this cup pass from me, i.e. as it is drunk by Me, so let it be drunk by these, without mistrust, without sense of pain, without fear of death. He says, If it be possible, because flesh and blood shrink from these things, and it is hard for human bodies not to sink beneath their infliction. That He says, Not as I will, but as you will, He would fain indeed that they should not suffer, lest their faith should fail in their sufferings, if indeed we might attain to the glory of our joint inheritance with Him without the hardship of sharing in His Passion. He says, Not as I will, but as you will, because it is the Father's will that strength to drink of the cup should pass from Him to them, that the Devil might be vanquished not so much by Christ as by His disciples also.
Blessed Augustine: Christ thus as man shows a certain private human will, in which He who is our head figures both His own will and ours when He says, Let it pass from me. For this was His human will choosing something as apart for Himself. But because as man He would be righteous and guide Himself by God's will, He adds, Nevertheless not as I will, but as you will; as much as to say to us, Man, behold yourself in Me, that you can will somewhat apart of thyself, and though God's will is other, this is permitted to human frailty.
Pray for my weakness,
childoforthodoxy
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness