aghaby everyone,
u can probably guess where i am going with this topic. I want to know why abouna gets mad when we sing these songs. An example: "Our God is an awesome God"
I dont mean during communion, but like before a meeting and stuff. i dont think there is anything wrong with singing tehse songs as long as they dont interfere with our culture. i Mean, if we arent to sing it y are they written in our song books!!!!
+mahraeel+
Comments
Hello Friends,
1. Songs are for God not for people. We like songs which r easy to our human ears. Such songs remain in the flesh. They have no power to go deep into our souls so that the song of that soul would call God. The songs which the catholic and the protestants sing is a pure worldly music covered with spiritual words. The Church Fathers know better than us. They can look beyond the flesh unlike us. They have ears of the soul well perfect than ours. It is always not easy to find why they r mad but in my experience they r always right. They may not have the fancy words we use to describe things but the Truth abode in them. We do err almost 100%. These Fathers r the ones who died for this True Faith sticking to the Truth. It might be as small as a song or as big as The Nature of Christ. I would rather love Abouna to be mad at me always and know the Truth than pamper me to go to hell. We copy the songs today then tomorrow we will write down their Creed. The devil will not come as big as a Dragon but as small as a serpent. Let us keep what is Heavenly in our Church and leave what is worldly for them. Let us Pray for them to come to the Truth but not lust for what is fake at their hands.
May God help us to respect what is ours before we look at somewhere.
"Our God is an awesome God,
He reigns from heaven above,
With wisdom, power and love,
Our God is an awesome God!
Our God is an awesome God,
He reigns from heaven above,
With wisdom power and love,
Our God is an awesome God!"
everything is worldly... even our hymns in church are worldly, all these hymns are made by people who guest their ways in the world as we... they in their music and tunes were able to keep their thought close to God! so for us now we need something to keep us close to God in our minds and our thoughts! are priests subject to sin, or say what is wrong... yes 100% for if they cease to sin... then they are not humans!
there is absolutely nothing wrong with western music if it keeps us close to God! back in the days their ears were more accepting to music that was slow... but now we live in a fast paced world thus our ears also are paced to a fast music... our eyes are paced to fast movements... our bodies act fast to situations also! so for people like us, who are fast paced what are we going to do?! are we going to lose meditation? do you ever wonder why some priest pray fast?! if that's the case then the priests that pray "fast" are wrong! but rather when they pray the liturgy in a fast pace, its because they know some people will fall asleep to the slow tunes, as one of the monks told me, when I asked him about why prayed the liturgy so fast... because we started the liturgy at 3am and it ended at 4am!
and there are a lot of songs that can be titled "western" tuned that are prominent and vastly accepted by the Coptic church in Egypt! so its not wrong at all, only if it keeps you close to God... but again there are too many hymns in the church that can be listened to... so don't forget the church hymns either! and also some "western" spiritual songs are very up beat, that will sometimes give unrest to the mind... so the best is calm music with the right doctrine... again because it's not ours... there are sometimes things that are not ours! so look for the right "western" spiritual songs to listen to!
the way we can solve this problem is if we can make good English songs! so if anyone knows how to write music... and those who write poetry... I would take the blessing of you getting in contact with me and be willing to work on something like that... it would be a GREAT blessing!
akhdna el baraka... neshkor allah!
+mahraeel+
I listen to these songs all the time (btw check out Casting Crowns they are AWESOME) and I want to ask the people who think these songs are wrong exactly what damage do they see being done? I see no difference between 'Shout to the Lord' and Psalm 150 that we sing after Communion every Sunday! It is not a music's style that makes it wrong, its its content. And anyway, if we are listening to mainstream Western songs like I do anyway, why the heck would we not throw in some Christian stuff as well?
I think the problem is that the music is different, and most people are afraid of change (yes even some Abouna's). Its just part of human nature. But the other possible reason could be summed up in one word: Hillsong. They have given this music style a bad name, for a lot of reasons (I don't have an opinion on that yet so I don't want to say anything).
Btw, if you're interested, my church priest has a blog in which he adressed this issue. Its good reading and it makes a lot of sense. It might help bust some of the myths and rumours surrounding western music. Here it is:
http://www.stbishoy.org.au/modules/wordpress/
(just scroll down until you find an entry called Musical Mayhem??? - its in 3 parts.)
Peace!
God bless
Dear Friends,
It is all about choice. God won't push you. You have your own will that no one even God won't intervene. The Truth will remain The Truth. There are many false ideas which r accepted by many. There are Tunes from Heaven that are from The Angels. Some are from below and practically many will love them b/c they are easy. God's things are mostly hard to understand and heavy for the flesh.
Sometimes I am so ashamed of myself plus many Christians who r living now a days. We want to be happy with all the worship. We don't take a chance to say No to our carnal mind and listen to what God has to say. We r always in a hurry to even prove God's real blessings. God's blessing always come from denying who we r, what we like. The Flesh always fight with the soul. What we like in the flesh is not the best for the soul. What is best for the soul is pain for the flesh. We r gonna choose b/n the two. We listen to the flesh or the soul. All our worships r becoming like recreation but the true worship is pain with real love for God.
The Church or any service will not change with the mood of the Christians. One that Governs this Church is God, The Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Head of The Church. This Church is His Body. And as God NEVER CHANGES, THE CHURCH OR ANY OTHER SERVICES will not change. Truly people will change for the worst b/c it is a Prophecy. But let us keep this Holy Church as we have received it from Our Fathers. The Liturgy is not going to be 1 hour only lest many people would fall asleep. We would rather wake those who r sleeping than shorten the prayer. Jesus is the Same, Yesterday, Today and Forever. If God does not change, why on earth His children, we change?
Let us work on ourselves than on the Church. People go to a Mountain but the Mountain won't come to people.
May God help us see towards our Christian life first. Then we will be enlightened that we r the ones who needs correction. We need to be grown spiritually enough to carry the Holy Cross of God in the Church than copying fake crosses. These fake crosses might play a role as a feeble shield to be saved from our inner guilty feeling but it will Never Get Us Closer to The True God, Jesus.
and worship is meant to be happy... if you don’t think so, then you don’t know God... and will never know the God of love... God taught us to be happy... he comforts us with the Holy Spirit... with joy and triumph... I can only imagine the Jews after crossing the red sea... all depressed, but they didn’t they actually did something that made God happy... which is triumphed with joy... and God was pleased with them! David was not a depressed fellow... he sang and danced, “praise God”... and if you notice, he starts the psalms sad at times, but ends it with the hope of God... and he was worshiping God in that manner! So I don’t know what to tell you, but you got the wrong idea of worship!!!
F.Y.I. churches in Africa, which are Coptic, the people pray the liturgy while dancing... did anba antonious say "NO, you are Christians now... have you no shame?! You must be depressed... how dare you be happy while praising the God of love?!" research the bible, any Coptic book... the paradise of the fathers... and send me that info... I'd like to see where it says don’t be happy when you worship God!
You are wrong… the body is the temple of God… you have to take care of it, if worship will hurt it in any shape, way, or form, then you are at err… that is why when you ask your father of confession, to right away start doing 400 matanyas a day, he will tell you “NO” for spiritual reasons…. And for physical reasons… physical being, that you’d hurt your back… but rather you should make your way up! So that your back might easily get used to it!
So our job is not to hurt the body, but rather train it, train it to be controlled... while controlled, you can have control on the desires, on the worldly needs of the body… so as a beginner you listen to either the body or the soul… but with control over your body, God will control you… and you’ll be able to be picked up by the spirit, from place to another… ride on clouds, like the anchorites! They do all that with their bodies… but their bodies become purified, by control… then you won’t have to differ between the two, but rather the body will obey you!
Even in the paradise of the fathers, they say eat once a day during fasting… but eat till you are content… it never said under eat! But again… find me where it says worship is pain… in the Coptic church!
Another FYI… in the time of the apostles, the church service mostly never exceeded an hour! But the church fathers added a lot to the liturgy! Keep that in mind! There is A LOT that was changed since the Apostles for the sake of the people!
Another thought that comes to mind is… Hmm why don’t we speak Aramaic? Oh ya they spoke Greek, and Coptic for the sake of the people!!! But it’s okay they could’ve said “NO THE CHURCH WILL NOT CHANGE! WE DON’T CARE IF WE BORE PEOPLE WITH A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE; HE IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND TOMORROW!”
Let me let you in on something… the tunes were changed… the Language was changed… but the Theology remained the same!!! That is what God means by He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow!
Akhdna el Baraka neshkor allah!
+mahraeel+
ur sopposed to be happy when you worshop am i right? but i think wat he meant was: you have to go to some pain because you love the Lord your God.
Fair enough. That's very true, but that pain is something we endure in our lives through the sacrifices we make to do the right thing. But seriously, read the Psalms and tell me David wasn't happy when he was writing them. Geez at one point he danced naked to praise God, that seems pretty darn happy to me lol! Its just plain dumb to suggest that we must always live our lives in a sombre, depressed, reverent way. That defies the meaning of the word 'praise'. But still (correct me if I'm wrong please), the vibe I'm getting from BinC, and many others in our community, is that these songs should be avoided completely.
[quote author=binC link=topic=7184.msg95227#msg95227 date=1223466356]
These fake crosses might play a role as a feeble shield to be saved from our inner guilty feeling but it will Never Get Us Closer to The True God, Jesus.
I'm sorry mate but I think that is really shallow. If you're point is that these Western spiritual songs do not compare to Liturgies or Metania's as means of worship, you are right (to an extent). But they are not there to replace those things but rather to complement them, to give even more of our lives to Christ. Last time I checked, that was a good thing!!! Again, my question remains unanswered: What damage are they doing? Why should we NOT listen to them? All I see is a lot of reasons why more of us SHOULD be listening to songs of a different culture.
I am amazed and a bit dissappointed that this is such a big issue in our church! I thought we were more mature than that! You didn't give any reasons WHY these songs are so called 'fake-crosses'. Please give us some. I challenge you ;)
Again, my question remains unanswered: What damage are they doing? Why should we NOT listen to them? All I see is a lot of reasons why more of us SHOULD be listening to songs of a different culture.
There is no damage in listening to them if you are well grounded in faith and these protestant/western songs dont have anything theologically or dogmatically incorrect. If you don't necessarily know whats right and wrong(theologically speaking) and these songs have things that are wrong(not all of them do of course but some yes) then no you shouldn't listen to them. But Let me ask you a question, what is wrong with the tarateel in our church already??
But Let me ask you a question, what is wrong with the tarateel in our church already??
Absolutely nothing! They're beautiful and ancient, and written so well. I love them. But why would you ask a question like that? I find it strange that you would think that way even though I never said anything to suggest that I wasn't satisfied with our own traditions. Do you think that these Protestant songs are a threat to our own traditions? You ask it as though we can only have one or the other, which is not true.
To me the songs are not a replacement to our own traditions, I am a deacon and I sing Tasbeha and serve in the mass and enjoy it thoroghly. That is one kind of priase and service. When I am on the train or on a long car trip, I listen to Western/Christian music as well as mainstream music. The two are not mutually exclusive. We can learn a lot from Protestant culture (putting theology aside), they are much more passionate in their praise and active in their service than we are I think. And by the same token they could learn a lot from us. This kind of unity is a good thing, and one of the ways to foster inter-denominational relations is through learning what the others are like. Listening to their music is an excellent way of doing that.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7184.msg95250#msg95250 date=1223515286]
But Let me ask you a question, what is wrong with the tarateel in our church already??
Absolutely nothing! They're beautiful and ancient, and written so well. I love them. But why would you ask a question like that? I find it strange that you would think that way even though I never said anything to suggest that I wasn't satisfied with our own traditions. Do you think that these Protestant songs are a threat to our own traditions? You ask it as though we can only have one or the other, which is not true.
I ask that question because it seems like the youth these days refuse to use the ones we have and ONLY listen to the protestant ones. Some have to a point tried to have them song during communion which i find to be so sad and as a group of deacons in my own church refused to sing them in meetings and of course during services. I feel very defensive against them(personally, and i know there is nothing wrong with them its a preference of course) but it seems like the liturgy is getting short enough, and these songs have no depth compared to our hymns. We shouldn't have to conform to this culture to please the youth(mind you i'm a youth as well) but i don't think its right we just interject them or sing these songs INSTEAD of ours. not in complement with them, if that were the case i would have no problem.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7184.msg95260#msg95260 date=1223524084]
Some have to a point tried to have them song during communion which i find to be so sad and as a group of deacons in my own church refused to sing them in meetings and of course during services.
I disagree there because I think that would be a good thing. As long as it was done without replacing any of our normal traditions. Especially in a part of the mass that is that informal (don't get me wrong on this). Informal as in, the hymns we sing are different every week, it just depends on how the people feel. So then why not sing something that will appeal to youth as well. I think things like Chruch bands that sing in this style is a good idea too. Anything that is bringing people in and getting them involved and feeling like part of a community is great. This music is a great tool for that.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7184.msg95260#msg95260 date=1223524084]
We shouldn't have to conform to this culture to please the youth(mind you i'm a youth as well)
See I'm a youth too, I'm 15, and a lot of my friends who are my age at Chruch don't spend the mass inside the Chruch. They come in for 5 minutes, leave for a half hour, come back and so on until Communion. If you talked to them, you can see that spirituality and the Church is something that they aren't even vaguely interested in. I hate that. It hurts to see it. Its an indcation to me, that somewhere along the line, youth in our culture are being lost. I've been lucky enough to realise how important the Church and God are in our lives, and how powerful and beautiful they are. But I know that my friends don't. If it ever comes up, I just get a 'meh' and a shrug of dismissal. I don't think the problem is in our upbringing. I think it lies in the fact that the world we spend most of our Monday to Saturday lives in is so different to the Sunday one. If a bit of Western music in the Chruch brings people in, just so we can get the important stuff in later, I think its worth it.
"...to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;" (1 Cor 9:20, 21)
Pray for me! God bless
I liked this discussion so much I signed in immediately.
I agree with epchois nai nan, it's the theology and the attitude of your heart that matters. Its people like you that attract people like me (white, british) to the Coptic Church, and I am very grateful to the love of God shown by my church, abuna, tasoni, deacons and everyone. I also met a lady at church from another religion who was similarly attracted by the message of God's grace and salvation through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who said that 'true worshipers will worship in Spirit and in truth'.
May our lives be conducted to His glory at all times and may we spend our days in worship and may the Lord our God, the Almighty protect us from every evil and all thoughts of sin, impurity and wickedness.
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of all ages.
Dear Friends,
Let me tell u something that u might well know. Just as u said their first thought was of attracting the youth to the church. For this what they do was opening cafes and pubs on the 2nd floor where by the bottom is the church. But through time the church loses all it has spiritually and the Catholic churches in Europe now r just empty halls and ready to be rented for meetings so on. The people end up having almost religion.
I am not resistant about accepting others from outside but I am concerned about our Faith. Why do we borrow or copy from Heretics? u almost feel comfortable with their songs. How and why? may be this time is the songs but how can u be sure if there r some heretical things crawling behind to poison us? The way we dress, The way we preach, The way we fast, The way we worship.
Saint Paul was a preacher to those who know not God at all but now we r talking about those who know God. We are losing our identity as a Christian. It is just plain the words of God in The Bible. Everyone in our Chruch is not of the same spiritual stage. Some r infants and need milk but that does not mean we r all going to get milk always. Some r grown up enough and they must eat hard foods and be strong. Christianity is about growth. May be those who r new might be allowed to listen to this songs for a few time. I am wondering why we, the ones who r grown attracted to those songs?
This is not all about songs but also about anything to copy from them. God is with us, The Oriental Orthodox Churches. Do u know that it is wrong to copy or learn from the devil even if it is right or true? The source matters for Christians. Remember why St. Paul rebuked the devil on some soccerer. She was actually telling the truth but St. Paul knows the source of that talk so he rebuked her. This songs may call God but the source is the devil. Who do think creates all these heretical ideas? who do u think command these churches?
They don't know God. They serve actively b/c there is no temptation for them. They call Jesus' name so many times but never live according to His words.
They r really fake and their songs r fake. "to Look like" and "to be" are different.
May God help us all !!!
Yea I see where you're coming from. But I still disagree on some points.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7184.msg95260#msg95260 date=1223524084]
Some have to a point tried to have them song during communion which i find to be so sad and as a group of deacons in my own church refused to sing them in meetings and of course during services.
I disagree there because I think that would be a good thing. As long as it was done without replacing any of our normal traditions. Especially in a part of the mass that is that informal (don't get me wrong on this). Informal as in, the hymns we sing are different every week, it just depends on how the people feel. So then why not sing something that will appeal to youth as well. I think things like Chruch bands that sing in this style is a good idea too. Anything that is bringing people in and getting them involved and feeling like part of a community is great. This music is a great tool for that.
The problem i have with that statement is that its against the rites of the church. Communion time is not as loose as you think it is, to a point that HG anba Youseff has not allowed tamgeed during communion. Only Psalm 150 and madeehas of that day or season or hymns to be sung such as Kata Nikhoros, Efempsha Ghar, Onishty, Which is in accordance with the rites. Communion is the most Holy Part of the liturgy because we recieve Christ himself! It for sure should not be as informal as you seem to think it is(i say this with all due respect). I don't know which church you are from but it seems you guys have a lot of problems.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=7184.msg95270#msg95270 date=1223540001]
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7184.msg95260#msg95260 date=1223524084]
We shouldn't have to conform to this culture to please the youth(mind you i'm a youth as well)
See I'm a youth too, I'm 15, and a lot of my friends who are my age at Chruch don't spend the mass inside the Chruch. They come in for 5 minutes, leave for a half hour, come back and so on until Communion. If you talked to them, you can see that spirituality and the Church is something that they aren't even vaguely interested in. I hate that. It hurts to see it. Its an indcation to me, that somewhere along the line, youth in our culture are being lost. I've been lucky enough to realise how important the Church and God are in our lives, and how powerful and beautiful they are. But I know that my friends don't. If it ever comes up, I just get a 'meh' and a shrug of dismissal. I don't think the problem is in our upbringing. I think it lies in the fact that the world we spend most of our Monday to Saturday lives in is so different to the Sunday one. If a bit of Western music in the Chruch brings people in, just so we can get the important stuff in later, I think its worth it.
"...to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;" (1 Cor 9:20, 21)
Pray for me! God bless
I disagree with that as well, I understand that we should not alienate the youth either but I still disagree that we bring in other songs from other churches ESPECIALLY during communion, that is completely against the rites of the church. I'm not speaking here over preference(even though i'm a bit bias), but none the less, I'm speaking based on the rites.
Maybe not all of you know, but in 1990 all the Orthodox Patriarchs met in Geneva, Switzerland and decided that the great Orthodox schism (of 451 at Chalcedon) about the nature of Christ need not have happened and affirmed what we all believe, that Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour had human and divine natures at the same time and that the previous disagreements were based on misunderstandings of different Greek words.
So we, too, whilst CAREFULLY EXAMINING EVERYTHING can look around at the beliefs of other Christians and sometimes decide to rejoice in our unity. There are similar dialogues happening (though not at the same stage) with other main denominations. Maybe we should be inspired by this.
I love the Coptic Orthodox liturgy (I listened to it today as I was off work) and I also love some (not all) Catholic and Protestant songs. I have not seen contemporary songs leading to disunity within the Coptic Church, instead they can help people to express their (ancient) faith in today's language and tell those around them the way to salvation. For example, one song says 'I worship you, Almighty God, there is none like you'. This means 'I prostrate to the Pantocrator', but who of our friends would understand that? Psalm 95 (Ninth hour Agpeya) says 'Sing a new song to the Lord'. If a bride can write lovesongs for her bridegroom when overwhelmed by his love, so can we burst out into song to the Lord who paid for all our sins.
So, yes, maybe we need to write new Coptic songs :)
Now, yes you may be right. These people dont serve the Lord their God from their heart. They just sing for the sign of peace. etc.... But that is the type of way they sing in church. God accepts you for the type of christian you are. he doesnt believe you are bad if your listening to non-coptic songs. As long as they are meaningful and spiritual. If thats what you enjoy, then you should be fine. It is what satisifes you and what helps you learn..
Please undserstand that we dont exclude coptic hymns and songs. we just add on to them and listen to more songss.. to the point where you ask to sing them during communion. Now, thats wrong. The reason for this is because if you are true coptic, then you would know the rights of the church. The mass is already written for may hundreds of years, to do this in communion is changing our culture and thats is not acceptable. but there is no rule in the bible that said don't listen to protestant songs. For didnt jesus go to weddings? Wasnt there music? Was it Eporo?? I think not! So in conclusion God does not judge you according to your musical sense. But according to your heart and his mercy..PLease forgive me
+mahraeel+
So in conclusion God does not judge you according to your musical sense. But according to your heart and his mercy..
Amen to that. I think we should all remember that the topic we're discussing is a superficial one. It just an outside thing, we're not talking about heaven and hell, we're talking about the Cymbals or the Bass.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7184.msg95290#msg95290 date=1223561662]
The problem i have with that statement is that its against the rites of the church. Communion time is not as loose as you think it is, to a point that HG anba Youseff has not allowed tamgeed during communion. Only Psalm 150 and madeehas of that day or season or hymns to be sung such as Kata Nikhoros, Efempsha Ghar, Onishty, Which is in accordance with the rites. Communion is the most Holy Part of the liturgy because we recieve Christ himself! It for sure should not be as informal as you seem to think it is(i say this with all due respect). I don't know which church you are from but it seems you guys have a lot of problems.
Please don't misunderstand what I say by informal. Don't you sing 'Here I Am Lord' one Sunday during Communion, and something else the next? That's what I mean. I don't think God minds what we sing, only people do.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=7184.msg95290#msg95290 date=1223561662]
I disagree with that as well, I understand that we should not alienate the youth either but I still disagree that we bring in other songs from other churches ESPECIALLY during communion, that is completely against the rites of the church. I'm not speaking here over preference(even though i'm a bit bias), but none the less, I'm speaking based on the rites.
Yes. In retrospect, Communion is the wrong place to bring in protestant songs. The whole mass is the wrong place to do it. I think its much safer to leave the Church rites untouched, or we'll end up losing them. Well done! You've convinced me :)
Pray for me!!!
I am not resistant about accepting others from outside but I am concerned about our Faith. Why do we borrow or copy from Heretics? u almost feel comfortable with their songs. How and why? may be this time is the songs but how can u be sure if there r some heretical things crawling behind to poison us?
Dude...that's crazy. That's like saying the Govt. is spiking the water to make us vote for them. You have a very skewed version of Catholics and Protestants. They aren't evil and they aren't constantly plotting to get us away from Christ. They are Christians too and they are just as deserving of of Heaven as we are. They may disagree with us on some points, but you are blowing that way out of proportion. You're attitude is wrong man, you have a false belief that is at the heart of the problem.
[quote author=binC link=topic=7184.msg95289#msg95289 date=1223561147]
God is with us, The Oriental Orthodox Churches.
And there it is. It really, really gets on my nerves when people say that, mostly because its pure rubbish. That is an incredibly arrogant opinion. By saying that, are you suggesting that God is NOT with Protestants or Catholics???
Can't you see how wrong that is? In the end, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox are all just words. Is God going to stop Pope John Paul II from entering heaven because his robe is white not black and he doesn't have a beard? I'm seeing this attitude a lot more than I'd like to...people dwelling and judging on the outside while completely disregarding the inside, which is in the end what matters. Perfect example is the Good Samaritan. Now according to the Jews, the Samaritan would have gone to hell, why? Because he chose to worship on the mountain instead of in Jerusalem. Jesus came to destroy that attitude!
John 4:23,24 - "The hour is coming, and now is, when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those that worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
That applies to Protestants and Catholics too. They (personally) did not decide not to have Communion or that Purgatory exists, they were born into those beliefs, so that sin cannot be attributed to them. What is left then, is how they manage their spiritual lives: If they love their enemies, if they love God. Can you see what I'm getting at? Where it counts, they're still in the right! The verse says true worshippers pray in spirit and truth not denomination.
They are Christians too! They love God just as much, maybe even more than we do. Jesus died for them too! The differences between us, while they are significant should never stand between us and unity. Let's just agree to disagree. At least that way, we can get a tiny bit closer to having one Church.
I mean seriously think about what you said. Where does that attitude lead?
"These people are heretics, so it is our duty to completely separate ourselves from them."
[quote author=binC link=topic=7184.msg95289#msg95289 date=1223561147]
This songs may call God but the source is the devil. Who do think creates all these heretical ideas? who do u think command these churches?
Come on man!! Truly, if the Devil is the driving force behind the Protestant and Catholic churches then he has obviously defected and now he serves Christ. Open your eyes!
Peace
Dear Friends,
In my earlier post I was saying "The people end up having almost No religion."
About the pain I mentioned in a true worship. I was not saying we have to be depressed.
I am talking about pain in the body or mind. If we r grown enough Christians we will not feel the pain but as a majority we feel it. This pain is with Faith, Hope and True Love for God. It is not like an empty labour of this world but rather an opportunity to remember the Passion of our Lord. There is a saying that goes "Pain is inevitable but suffering is optional".
We care for our body till it submits itself to our soul. We do not pamper it. Without pain there is no growth. How can one learn to fast without the pain of hunger? How can one learn to be humble without passing through the pain of humiliation? How can one learn patience without long services? How can one learn silence without the pain of being alone. There is always a price to be paid for every growth. Especially Christianity is all about the pain of losing everything for The Lord's sake. The Lord was surrounded by many folks when He fed them. Many crowds were with Him just a week before Friday all shouting and praising Him. But only 3 or 4 were beside Him when He was in a real pain and agony.
You cannot take the best part and leave the other side. Christianity is not all about happiness but sorrow. Not only about shout with joy but also filled with tears. We cannot tell people that they will be always happy as a Christian. We tell them the Truth. The Truth that there will be real hardships but God will be with you always to strengthen you. By faith you know that what you saw in tears will reap in joy may be in this world but sure in the coming world. Christains have the best promises of true hapiness not in this world but in Heaven. Here we are ordered to take the Cross and follow The Lord Christ. We carry as much as God wills. God's will for His children is always good. God is Love.
Psalm 27
1The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?
the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
May God help us through the prayer of His Holiest Mother St. Mary and all His Holy Angels, Saints. Amen!!!
Dear Friends,
There is a saying that goes, "Powerful lies are based on Truth". One fly is enough to spoil the whole perfume. Do you think our difference is only about words?
Let us take a simple example of intercession of the Saints. Here as an Orthodox Christian I am going to honour, praise St. Mary and ask God's forgiveness through her. The Protestant deny all her glory and her power to as a mediator b/n a sinner and God. Some even don't believe her virginity after the birth of God. The Catholic believes that she is heavenly.
This is just an example among the many to pick. Are we going to craete a New St. Mary who will qualify for both The Orthodox and The Protestants?
This idea about union should be they coming to us but not us modifying ourselves for them.
I am sorry to say this but I still do not think they r right. All the early Fathers were fighting for nothing? There is no heresy then? I just think our difference is more than words. But I will always wish they come to the Truth without modifying the Truth in any sense. We are white and they might be grey and others to be dark. Do we have to be grey for them or they should be white like us? The grey might look like white from far but grey is grey and white is white. As God is perfect, let us keep our perfect Faith, the Fathers handed to us.
May God enlighten us all to see His Divine Will in everything. We are just but slaves of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen!!!
Many pastors feel like its their job to make sure everyone is filled with the Holy Spirit, and not Gods. They feel they can do this ONLY if the person is hyped up by a nice song. I just feel like the kind of music they sing is meant for outside of church not inside. Do you know what mean? We shouldnt use music to make us happy in the liturgy, the happiness should come from and ONLY from the presence of God in the liturgy. When we sing, we are singing to God, not singing to get everyone into the liturgy NO, not at all. Singing is a form of praising God, the only thing you should get out of praising God is that your glorifying him and hes very well listening to you and with you. If you start singing for YOURSELF, and so that YOU can feel good, get out of the Church. And i KNOW that must be why the abounas get upset when they hear protestant songs, there all based on attracting the audience
Many pastors feel like its their job to make sure everyone is filled with the Holy Spirit, and not Gods.
You do realize that the Holy Spirit is God right??
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=7184.msg95424#msg95424 date=1223786733]
Many pastors feel like its their job to make sure everyone is filled with the Holy Spirit, and not Gods.
You do realize that the Holy Spirit is God right??
umm yea, wut does that have to do with anything? I said pastors think its their job to fill the audience with the holy spirit, but its not their job its Gods job to fill the audience with his spirit
We shouldnt use music to make us happy in the liturgy, the happiness should come from and ONLY from the presence of God in the liturgy. When we sing, we are singing to God, not singing to get everyone into the liturgy NO, not at all.
I disagree with that very very strongly. The thing is, if that was true, we would not chant anything in the mass, we would just say it. To God, whether something is said or sung is completely irrelevant. Let's not make a shallow person out of God, He doesn't care how we praise Him, just that we do. I firmly believe that the tunes are there for US. Music has an incredible effect on a person's mood and how they feel about something. You know 'Je Nai Nan'? Try just saying the words without a tune. Then sing it with the tune and compare how you felt. Music is a way of helping US praise God, so it is (indirectly) a form of worship if you get my meaning.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=7184.msg95424#msg95424 date=1223786733]
And i KNOW that must be why the abounas get upset when they hear protestant songs, there all based on attracting the audience
That is very true. I agree one hundred percent..BUT!!!
My problem with that argument is that it is not the music itself that is wrong. Its the way that it is used. If I have kitchen knife, I can use it to cut up some vegetables and make a nice meal. Or alternatively I could use it to stab someone to death. The knife is neither good nor bad, it all depends on how it is used. So if we, as good, sincere Christians use the music as a means of praising God, even though some people use it wrongly, it doesn't affect us.
The thing is I think everyone talks from their experience and no doubt some have seen music used in church as emotional hype and others have seen it used as a means to bring us into God's presence. So the same words on the computer screen are understood differently by different people depending on their experience.
I myself have visited really very many types of churches (i had to move house a lot with my job so it was inevitable) and I have seen both sorts of experience.
I think it's important for us all to check our motives and do our best to praise God from the heart
'real worshipers will worship me in Spirit and truth'
May God foregive me, a sinner.
I hope ep chois nai nan will not mind if i quote a link he previously posted, i have just found it:
http://www.stbishoy.org.au/modules/wordpress/
(The relevant posts are Musical Mayhem Parts 1,2 and 3)
I have just read part 3 and a few other things by abuna bishoy. his theology rocks! Its really calm, well-argued, and gives us advice on how to weigh up new ideas (eg songs, the theology of other groups) to decide if they are useful or harmful. V good reading. :)