Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
Hunger strike = suicide ???
I just read that Mario and Andrew (the two boys whose father became a muslim and who are now forced by law to go and live with him and who received new pasports saying they're muslims following their father) have decided to go on hunger strike till death if they were forcefully removed from their mother to go and live with their father.
Isn't hunger strike till death a form of committing suicide???
My humble opinion is that they should ask God to give them strength to go through this, but committing suicide slowly like that is like saying if the law won't give us our rights then we will kill ourselves, instead of : we will pray and let God do what He thinks is best...
Would anyone like to share their views on this?
Isn't hunger strike till death a form of committing suicide???
My humble opinion is that they should ask God to give them strength to go through this, but committing suicide slowly like that is like saying if the law won't give us our rights then we will kill ourselves, instead of : we will pray and let God do what He thinks is best...
Would anyone like to share their views on this?
Comments
1) as u said, they are ending their own lives instead of relying on God (this case its wrong)
2) or someone might think, its a form of martyrdom; them preferring to end their lives rather than denying their Christ (become muslims under the dad's name)...
do u get what im saying?? but my personal opnion i s: "i dont kno ???"
they can do nothing about it... so by them givig up their lives to prevent worshipping another god, it is definite martyrdom...
u convinced???
I mean would that still be martyrdom in your eyes if they would have taken their own lives in any other way?
If any of the saints who were killed for saying they were christian, could have remained alive while still clinging to christianity (and by this I mean still proclaiming their belief in chrsitianity), they probably wouldn't have killed themselves, would they?...
they can do nothing about it... so by them givig up their lives to prevent worshipping another god, it is definite martyrdom...
u convinced???
no not really, no one can be forced to worship another God, they can still be christians and say that out loud even while living with their muslim father...
I think hunger strike till death is meant to threaten, but if they actually go on with it and die then I think it would be suicide, but I'm open to any arguments to convince me of the contrary..
What about Daniel and the 3 youths who were taken captive by the Babylonians? They were forced to adopt the Chaldean culture but they still remained faithful to God. And because they remained faithful to God, He did not forsake them
Daniel 1:8-9 "But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself...now God had brought Daniel into the favour and goodwill of the chief of the eunuchs"
Because of this faith, wonders were shown through Daniel. I see this situation as a kind of parallel - no matter what goes on around you, you can always remain faithful to God. The persecution you endure DURING that faith, I would call martyrdom. I think that they are already martyrs for the persecution they are enduring, but I personally don't agree with this hunger strike. I do appreciate that their intentions are probably good. Pray for them.
Matthew
About how 3 nuns were taken captive, but the soldiers thought one of them was beautiful and wanted to take away her virginity, then she told the soldiers that she has an ointment that will make her not have any wounds, she put it on her neck and asked them to cut her, and she died (by Martyrdom) for not giving up her virginity. Along with the other 2 nuns. I could be wrong, but i remember something like this in Sunday School.
God Bless.
Christopher.
1) Losing the physical virginity (tearing the hymen) for reasons other than fornication or adultery isn't a sin. Because it can be torn by so many other causes, and rape is one of them.
2) The story sounds strange to me for a couple of reasons:
-the nun lied and said she had an ointment that would prevent her from having any wounds
-she fooled the soldier into killing her, she fooled him into committing a sin
I understand her situation was difficult and I'm not judging or anything, but firstly, how sure are we that the story is true, and secondly Mario and Andrew aren't in that situation. They are true christians as long as they don't deny Christ, they can keep clinging to christianity even if alive.
So i don't think it is suicide.
Their choices are not just: die a christian or become a muslim
their choices are live as a christian (who never denies his God) but with muslim papers (which I wouldn't find pleasant either by the way), or take the easy way and become a muslim...
I just want to ask this question: What if they just killed themselves in any other way, would you still call it martyrdom?
It is not my intention to judge those two courageous boys, for who am I to do that, but that doesn't mean I agree with all their actions, if one kills himself when facing tribulation instead of enduring with God's strength, it seems like suicide to me, but I might be mistaken though, I just haven't seen an argument to convince me...
Sorry godislove, I just realised I kind of marginalised your view inadvertently and made it difficult for you to express your thoughts, and thus reason together.
In regards to your question, I think the "killed themselves in any other way" is a little "begging the question". We are talking about bigots who think they have God-appointed authority to change someone's Creed; all the martyrs gave themselves up for death at this point. I don't really see the difference between them refusing their food, or them being in prison facing torture. Monks do the same thing with fasting, and other asceticism. They are not healthy and can be life-threatening in the long-term.
These evil authorities must get the message- that our faith is not something they have right to refuse. We would rather refuse their food, and life's luxuries than our orthodox living faith.
From my narrow point of view, I see an overzealous authority that is abusing their rights to change someone's confessional Creed for their own maligned angeda, to subjugate these otherwise helpless men, who cannot also prevent a legal document from expressing the abhorrent creed of Mohammedanism- a ghastly circumstance you would expect for these men.
they can not have muslim papers and and be Chrisitans, becasue if that was an option, don't u think many of the great martyrs we have would have just took a handfull of inscence and thrown it infront of a little statue made of rock? it would have been as simple as that, just do it, get out of captivity and then return back to God... this si defenatly not an option.......
and besides, they are not necesarilly ending their lives. they are taking action to change the situation they are in, this might end up with them actually dying (as Martyrs i guess because they gave their lives refusing to worship another god) or GOD will take care of them and they will be released and given their freedome or anyother solution, God can do the impossible..........
God allows things to happen for a reason... for the boys if they want to practice Christianity, they should... and then they might receive the true martyrdom! our God is one who looks at the heart not the papers... even though, they can always remain on fighting whats on the paper!
for my personal opinion what they are doing is not acceptable, for there is no need of it! it will not make anything better! there are many stories of people who took their lives to remain with God, but it's because they were close to sinning, and had to run, as we are told do when temptation or sin comes along!
for example, there was a girl about to be rapped by a Muslim extremest... she was drugged... and was married under the Islamic law... so she told the guy she'll go and get cleaned up... and next thing he knew... she jumped out of the window (five or six floors), to remain her body from losing its purity in the eyes of God! this was a recent situation! and that is martyrdom! she had no way out...
but abstaining from eating... that's not the way to go... its best if they follow the law, live with that man... practice Christianity... if they are killed during the way, then so be it... if nothing changes until eighteen they can move out... but before then the mother can ask the U.S. for help, and they would take them out! so a lot can be done, instead of refusing to eat, and just waiting!
akhdna el baraka... neshkor allah!
yeah I understand, but they can still keep saying that they're christian, the fact that they're pasports will say that they're muslims doesn't mean anything, it's what they say that matters, i think
I am not sure of how things work in a Muslim dominated society, but if their documents say they are Muslims, are they not going to be obliged to grow up as Muslims,going to Muslim schools,learning and reciting the Koran,observing Muslim laws,being told that Christians are infidels,etc etc? If as you say, they could still claim to be christians, isnt there danger for them to be ultimately accused (by their father,for example) of apostosy if they were found to be attending Christian institutions? The worst side effect of all this is that, if they are properly brainwashed once they adapt the Islamic faith, they may lose forever.
It is very important to profess our faith in Christ in public.If not, the Lord has warned us ,that if we deny Him in public, He would deny us before His father.
In Ecclesiasticus 4:28, the word of God says:
"Fight to the death for truth,
And the Lord God will war on your side."
I think,by choosing to go on a hungerstrike,they are not deliberately taking their lives as a suicide bomber would do,but demonstrating that they remain unshaken in their faith;their love for God ,objection to Islam ,and also making the community aware of the gross human rights violations, ie, they are killing few flies in one stroke.
In other words, assessing the will and intention of the involved person is important. If the will is, through the love for Christ, trying to better the lives of others who find themseves in darkness or similar situations, then I feel the case qualifies for holy martyrdom.
If, however, the will is not motivated by love of Christ, but by bitterness and hatred , then there is nothing holy about the person starving himself to death.
This is a very sad thing to read. Is there anything more barbaric than to force God's beautiful creatures change their faith! May God help all those who are persecuted!
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Coptic Christians should never express the word "Hunger Strike" for abstaining from food. "Fasting" is for Christians as "Hunger Strike" is for the Godless. I hope you understand my point.
Thanks in advance
any news guys???
sorry i have not read every response to the full...
God allows things to happen for a reason... for the boys if they want to practice Christianity, they should... and then they might receive the true martyrdom! our God is one who looks at the heart not the papers... even though, they can always remain on fighting whats on the paper!
for my personal opinion what they are doing is not acceptable, for there is no need of it! it will not make anything better! there are many stories of people who took their lives to remain with God, but it's because they were close to sinning, and had to run, as we are told do when temptation or sin comes along!
for example, there was a girl about to be rapped by a Muslim extremest... she was drugged... and was married under the Islamic law... so she told the guy she'll go and get cleaned up... and next thing he knew... she jumped out of the window (five or six floors), to remain her body from losing its purity in the eyes of God! this was a recent situation! and that is martyrdom! she had no way out...
but abstaining from eating... that's not the way to go... its best if they follow the law, live with that man... practice Christianity... if they are killed during the way, then so be it... if nothing changes until eighteen they can move out... but before then the mother can ask the U.S. for help, and they would take them out! so a lot can be done, instead of refusing to eat, and just waiting!
akhdna el baraka... neshkor allah!
Finally someone who agrees this is not the best way to deal with the situation ...
but I don't see the girl jumping from the sixth floor as martyrdom, this is plain suicide, seems to me
it's basically running away from torture by ending your own life... and I doubt the church considers being raped as losing your purity since God knows what's in the heart and knows that you didn't ask to get raped !!
if all the saints ran away from being tortured and killed themselves instead, I doubt they would be called saints today..
if God wants martyrdom for the boys, and they are prepared, it will come another way
but you can't take your own life and call it martyrdom and say it's out of love for God
how can you sin out of love for God???? would God ever ask a person to break His commandments???
this is acutally very dangerous: the end justifies the means, I can do whatever as long as it's for God
doesn't that ring a bell? 'Al Jihad fi sabeel Allah'
[quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=7205.msg95682#msg95682 date=1224108285]
13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." Luke 16:13
they can not have muslim papers and and be Chrisitans, becasue if that was an option, don't u think many of the great martyrs we have would have just took a handfull of inscence and thrown it infront of a little statue made of rock? it would have been as simple as that, just do it, get out of captivity and then return back to God... this si defenatly not an option.......
and besides, they are not necesarilly ending their lives. they are taking action to change the situation they are in, this might end up with them actually dying (as Martyrs i guess because they gave their lives refusing to worship another god) or GOD will take care of them and they will be released and given their freedome or anyother solution, God can do the impossible..........
There is a big difference between having muslim papers which they didn't themselves ask for and burning incense to the gods; the papers are just that..paper, they don't mean anything, the boys keep proclaiming their faith in Christ and they don't deny Him. The equivalent of 'burning incense to the gods' in their case would be to give in and agree to become muslims...
Please forgive me if I come off a bit agressive or judgemental, for it's not my intention to be either of those things, I'm merely expressing my opinion...
God Bless
Also, I would like to know what the consequences would be,if one's creed appears in documents in a Musilm society. Would the children be forced to attend Islamic madrasses to learn and absorb the Koran? If that is so, is there no danger for the young,pure and unsuspecting to be thoroughly drilled in hatred of non-Muslims?
[[quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=7205.msg95682#msg95682 date=1224108285]
13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." Luke 16:13
they can not have muslim papers and and be Chrisitans, becasue if that was an option, don't u think many of the great martyrs we have would have just took a handfull of inscence and thrown it infront of a little statue made of rock? it would have been as simple as that, just do it, get out of captivity and then return back to God... this si defenatly not an option.......
and besides, they are not necesarilly ending their lives. they are taking action to change the situation they are in, this might end up with them actually dying (as Martyrs i guess because they gave their lives refusing to worship another god) or GOD will take care of them and they will be released and given their freedome or anyother solution, God can do the impossible..........
There is a big difference between having muslim papers which they didn't themselves ask for and burning incense to the gods; the papers are just that..paper, they don't mean anything, the boys keep proclaiming their faith in Christ and they don't deny Him. The equivalent of 'burning incense to the gods' in their case would be to give in and agree to become muslims...
Please forgive me if I come off a bit agressive or judgemental, for it's not my intention to be either of those things, I'm merely expressing my opinion...
God Bless
But if the Saints just threw the inscence infront of peice of shapped rock how does that means they gave in? they could have kept whatever was in thier heart... like you can't go say i am Chrisitan, and then go give a quick throw of inscence... just like you can't say i am Christian and have Muslim written akk iver you papaers....
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7205.msg95715#msg95715 date=1224173414]
[[quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=7205.msg95682#msg95682 date=1224108285]
13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." Luke 16:13
they can not have muslim papers and and be Chrisitans, becasue if that was an option, don't u think many of the great martyrs we have would have just took a handfull of inscence and thrown it infront of a little statue made of rock? it would have been as simple as that, just do it, get out of captivity and then return back to God... this si defenatly not an option.......
and besides, they are not necesarilly ending their lives. they are taking action to change the situation they are in, this might end up with them actually dying (as Martyrs i guess because they gave their lives refusing to worship another god) or GOD will take care of them and they will be released and given their freedome or anyother solution, God can do the impossible..........
There is a big difference between having muslim papers which they didn't themselves ask for and burning incense to the gods; the papers are just that..paper, they don't mean anything, the boys keep proclaiming their faith in Christ and they don't deny Him. The equivalent of 'burning incense to the gods' in their case would be to give in and agree to become muslims...
Please forgive me if I come off a bit agressive or judgemental, for it's not my intention to be either of those things, I'm merely expressing my opinion...
God Bless
But if the Saints just threw the inscence infront of peice of shapped rock how does that means they gave in? they could have kept whatever was in thier heart... like you can't go say i am Chrisitan, and then go give a quick throw of inscence... just like you can't say i am Christian and have Muslim written akk iver you papaers....
Because burning inscence would be denying Christ out loud (publicly), whereas the boys, even while having muslim papers (WHICH THEY DIDN'T CHOOSE TO HAVE whereas you choose to burn inscence), still proclaim out loud that they're christian, they don't deny Christ
I am starting to re-think whether a "hunger strike" per se is the correct action. But, I don't know, what choice do they have with these ludicrous enemies of God!
I am thinking this way. These boys are saying, we will not submit to Islam,the religion of Mohammed;we love our Lord Jesus Christ so much so that we are willing to fight unto death. Now,the notion that their way of showing ,-probably the only way in a society of demons,-their unconditional love to Christ is sin itself and is not different than the brainwashed suicide bombers who take the lives of the innocent indiscriminately so as to inherit the kingdom of heaven,with 72 virgins and rivers of wine is pure hogwash.
Clay ,I think you will agree with me, if we merely pray on their behalf so that our good Lord gives them strength to fight and overcome this battle instead of acting like a Prosecutor, Judge and Jury.
I call on St Maria to set a universal time like the other day.
I just think it's very dangerous to have a macchiavellistic attitude when it comes to religious matters: I do whatever I want to prove my love for God, even if what I do is a sin!!
Maybe God allowed to put them in this situation so they could endure and thus glorify Him...
Look at the Egyptian constitution art 2 'Islam is the religion of the state...' thus OFFICIALLY Islam is the religion of the state, ON PAPER. I hate the fact that this article is in the Egyptian constitution, and I'm sure many others hate it too. But that doesn't mean I will kill myself rather than have my country officially be a muslim country, because I can still live in Egypt and be a christian, PROCLAIMING CHRIST'S NAME... Look at the copts living in Egypt, the largest christian minority in the middle east, surrounded by muslims, yet glorifying God, enduring persecution and hatred, yet waking up everyday and fighting injustice. Enduring through faith and prayer... Maybe it's not the best example but I hope you get the point.
I myself don't think (not judging, just an opinion) that a hunger strike is the best thing to do in this situation. I have given some arguments to why I think so... If you have any substantial arguments, by all means, be so kind to share them with us...
May the Lord have mercy upon us all