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Any Church is good enough?
Guys ive been thinkin about this for a while now and no matter how much i meditate on it i just dont get it. We all know that you dont have to be Orthodox to go to heaven, we know that those who are going to heaven are NOT only of the orthodox faith, we know good catholics are going, good protestants are going, good baptists are going, and so on.
So what makes the Orthodox Church the true church if in fact you do not need to be apart of it to go to heaven? I really dont understand it, and a perfect example is the protestants dont believe the communion is christs true body and blood, and just hand it out in crackers and grape juice, while Christ himself said whoever does NOT eat my felsh and drink my blood has no life in him. How is it that these lifeless people according to scripture trully DO have life in them, otherwise they would not be able to go to heaven. I have a friend who says she speaks to God daily, her friend who is also protestant like herself has visions of things that will happen and in the end they always do happen. They are both madly in love with Christ, and neither of them are part of the Orthodox Church (though they were both baptised in the Orthodox Church) neither of them take communion, and surprisingly NEVER EVER FAST A DAY IN THEIR LIFE. That i truly dont understand, but i know that in the protestant church, fasting is considered really nothing, its good because its "in the bible" but there are no fasts, and they rarely or almost NEVER talk about it.
Yet, despite all the requirements they have inherited eternal life, and no one can say to them "your not going to heaven" because guarenteed, the good of them are going to heaven. So what is a requirement if it is not truly required? Do you see what i mean? Why do we do so much, when so little is required? These people live happy Godly lives, and trust in the Lord, yet do not partake of his blood, do not fast, NEVER confess, yet they have been given eternal life. Now im not saying im jealous ofcourse, for clearly we have been given a much sweeter deal, who WOULDNT want to partake of HIS HOLY BODY AND PRECIOUSE BLOOD. But what im saying, Jesus made so many requirements for heaven, such as communion, confession, fasting, prayer etc... yet in the end, you dont need ANY of this to inherit eternal life BASED on the protestant Church, all you need is to believe and be a good person, the sacrements are of no effect in the protestant church and baptist churches and so on...
What does our Church have to say to this? Besides we do what the bible commands, im not talking about that, im talking about eternal life... WE SAY we NEED communion to inherit eternal life and SO DOES JESUS, yet this cannot be 100% true if people are going to heaven without it daily. Even though they KNOW OUR DOCTRINE and refuse to accept it. (im not talking about muslims and jews and buddists, im only talking about christian denominations.)
So what makes the Orthodox Church the true church if in fact you do not need to be apart of it to go to heaven? I really dont understand it, and a perfect example is the protestants dont believe the communion is christs true body and blood, and just hand it out in crackers and grape juice, while Christ himself said whoever does NOT eat my felsh and drink my blood has no life in him. How is it that these lifeless people according to scripture trully DO have life in them, otherwise they would not be able to go to heaven. I have a friend who says she speaks to God daily, her friend who is also protestant like herself has visions of things that will happen and in the end they always do happen. They are both madly in love with Christ, and neither of them are part of the Orthodox Church (though they were both baptised in the Orthodox Church) neither of them take communion, and surprisingly NEVER EVER FAST A DAY IN THEIR LIFE. That i truly dont understand, but i know that in the protestant church, fasting is considered really nothing, its good because its "in the bible" but there are no fasts, and they rarely or almost NEVER talk about it.
Yet, despite all the requirements they have inherited eternal life, and no one can say to them "your not going to heaven" because guarenteed, the good of them are going to heaven. So what is a requirement if it is not truly required? Do you see what i mean? Why do we do so much, when so little is required? These people live happy Godly lives, and trust in the Lord, yet do not partake of his blood, do not fast, NEVER confess, yet they have been given eternal life. Now im not saying im jealous ofcourse, for clearly we have been given a much sweeter deal, who WOULDNT want to partake of HIS HOLY BODY AND PRECIOUSE BLOOD. But what im saying, Jesus made so many requirements for heaven, such as communion, confession, fasting, prayer etc... yet in the end, you dont need ANY of this to inherit eternal life BASED on the protestant Church, all you need is to believe and be a good person, the sacrements are of no effect in the protestant church and baptist churches and so on...
What does our Church have to say to this? Besides we do what the bible commands, im not talking about that, im talking about eternal life... WE SAY we NEED communion to inherit eternal life and SO DOES JESUS, yet this cannot be 100% true if people are going to heaven without it daily. Even though they KNOW OUR DOCTRINE and refuse to accept it. (im not talking about muslims and jews and buddists, im only talking about christian denominations.)
Comments
"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."
May the LORD protect me and you from those who try to change our faith.
Now that I am judging you my dear friend for thinking about this matter.. however we need to be safe.
St Theophan the recluse who is a Eastern Orthodox who I like says
"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."
May the LORD protect me and you from those who try to change our faith.
Now that I am judging you my dear friend for thinking about this matter.. however we need to be safe.
I believe that is very well said. By trying to form an opinion as to who will / will not make the grade, we are inadvertently stepping into God's shoes. We are trying to define Him and His work. By being academic and trying to define God, we only end up degrading Him. Therefore I believe its better to let God be God, accept His Mysteries and continue to seek Him. We already have enough on our hands to repent and pray for.
God bless,
Paulos
The same however cannot be said of the various groupings and denominations that sprout up every now and then. In the name of adapting to modern times or to safeguard their membership, they often compromise on the essence of their faith.There is the danger of falling for superficial fluff and that a lot of these churches offer.
Therefore, I believe its in our interest to focus inward on "what we are" and "what we ought to be" and correct our lives with respect to Him and other people.
God bless,
Paulos
Does this mean if you were orthodox and became protestant you will not inherit eternal life?
I dont really understand the quote "however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."
Does this mean if you were orthodox and became protestant you will not inherit eternal life?
i tihnk it's clear that when you "go astray from the right way" you lose your way and goal. if your goal is eternal life, and the way there is Orthodoxy, then anything away will not get you o the right goal, which here is heaven.
I dont really understand the quote "however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."
Does this mean if you were orthodox and became protestant you will not inherit eternal life?
You have interpreted the saying correctly.
We are very blessed to be on this path which we KNOW leads to God if followed correctly. Sure they may be other paths to heaven...but why leave this one if we know that it gets us there?
Matthew
We really should thank God for the opportunity to be part of the Orthodox church and be witnesses to the great saints it has and still does produce and their miracles...
God bless
“Why are you weeping, my children?” We replied, “Because you are leaving us orphans”. He responded to us, “Do not weep for that, because God will not abandon you. Weep rather for your brethren who will succeed you, because the end is coming. There will be nothing good after you, only a curse, contempt, universal devastation and stain. Only among those in Egypt and in East Syria will the true faith remain, and the rest of the world will be occupied by the teaching of the devil. After a certain time, when the altars which are in Egypt have been destroyed, then the son of perdition will reveal himself to all the world and there will be misfortune in the world when he reveals himself”. ...
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...Make me worthy to adore your glory with uncovered face, without shame. It is because of this hour, Lord, that I have endured sufferings, and I have not turned from the Orthodox faith; bright glory be to my ancestors and to those who nursed me with milk because I have fought for Orthodoxy and it is because of this that I am dying in exile”.
He( St. Dioscorus - Theopiste) spoke and gave up his soul to God at eleven at night on the fourth of the month of Elul (September).
Taken from History of St Dioscorus - Theopiste
CHAPTER 17 - 20
May God be with us always with His holiest mother, holy angels, saints in mercy and love.
Amen!!!
Matthew 5 - Christ Fulfills the Law
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
GBU
If one believes that Jesus is the Christ and the Saviour, then he ought to be saved. God said Himself that if we confess His Name before men and we truly mean it, He will confess our names to the Heavenly Kingdom in the last day.
you are right. but you can't just use one verse of the Bible and ignore all the others.
If one believes that Jesus is the Christ and the Saviour, then he ought to be saved. God said Himself that if we confess His Name before men and we truly mean it, He will confess our names to the Heavenly Kingdom in the last day.
This is a heavy loaded statement: "that Jesus is the Christ and the Saviour".
If we look really carefully at that, we must understand what is a 'Christ', what is the 'Christ', what did He do, why did He do it etc. To acknowledge that I am, say, your father, is to accept I have responsibilities and rights over you- and you acting accordingly. If I am your father, then you must depend on my support, and follow my rules etc. You cannot profess Jesus as Christ, and not treat Him as a Christ. For instance, the anointed kings of Israel were christs. Thus it is clear that Christ is a Chosen King of the 'Kingdom of God'(simply put). To believe He is Christ, we already are believing in the whole Jewish History, His mission, the Kingdom of God, and God Himself. There is just so much things that come with that profession that Jesus is the Christ.
Jesus as the Saviour, is to believe that you and humanity needed something to be saved from. You are thus confessing your own fault, acknowledging the existence of "sinfulness", the need for atonement etc.
If you do not believe in the Resurrection, then you do not believe in 'Christ' because Christ was prophesied to be an everlasting king. And St. Paul says as much, when he says, "if there is no resurrection of the dead, then your faith is in vain".
Such an easy statement to say, but very difficult to believe- if you believed He was the Christ, you would be seeking His Kingdom. If you believed He was the Saviour, then you would be walking as He walked, as one redeeming the times.
Only in Schizophrenia and religious people do I see that people believe in something, and it has no connection with how they interact with reality.
Jesus Christ said that he who is given much is required much, and vice versa applies. So we being born in the Orthodox Church are required to partake in all the sacraments because we know the truth. Some of the protestants do not know the truth and therefore are required less, but those who do know the truth and do not follow it will be judged accordingly.
I have to agree with this statement, but the main reason i made this topic in the first place was the seriouseness of communion and how seriousely our Lord took it. When he said to the multitude of people whoever does not eat my flesh and drink my blood has no life in him you could see just how seriouse he was and he made it clear to us. JUST LIKE TODAY, the people who heard christ say this saying walked away from him and followed him no more as the bible says, and Jesus instead of calling them back he looked at his desciples and said do you also want to leave. His own desciples he looked at and basically said if you dont believe me, and do NOT eat my flesh and drink my blood, than GO now.
To look at it carefully, the Lord knew that his desciples would say yes we believe you and we will stay, but even knowing their hearts he still looked at them and said if you want to go, than go. He did this specifically to say this is something that is not going to be compromised, this is a commandment. So when you look at it this way, denominations in Christianity that dont believe in the true body and blood of Christ are doing EXACTLY what those people did when Christ first mentioned his body and blood, theres literally no difference. There is nothing more or less he said to tell than he says in the bible, so how is it that we can say there is an exception now, but there was no exception back than.
The Coptic Orthodox Church teaches that we can't know exactly what happens, but that the body and blood do change in a special way. This is what I also believe.
I also believe that God is calling Christians of all groups to examine their faith carefully, and, especially, to learn from one another. (see the previous discussion on Protestant/ Catholic songs) The Anglican church, for example does venerate the body and blood (their traditions are largely Catholic, I know as I attended both services many times) more than other protestants, and they stress the importance of confession before taking part in communion. Having said that, they have some other theological problems, but there are several bishops from this group who are working very hard to restore correct tradition and scriptural interpretation to the church.
I think we should encourage people who do that, and also teach them the riches of our traditions and leave it to God to decide who is saved.
WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN TRANSUBSTANTIATION just in case anyone misunderstood
God Bless
PLease pray for my weakness
The term transsubstantiation was a term introduced by Thomas Asquinas the Latin Father, and according to my limited knowledge a term alien to the Orthodox church.
God Bless
Please pray for my weakness
Transubstantiation implies that the bread and wine have become a different substance - if you were to put them under a microscope, you would see human cells. We DON'T believe this to be the case. Nor do we use the word transformation, for this implies that the bread and wine have taken on a different shape. But this isn't the case either, because we can clearly see with our eyes that they still look like bread and wine. Instead we simply use the word CHANGE. We don't clearly understand this change but we know that it happens, hence the name "Holy Mysteries"
I was amazed when I heard this. It's incredible how much care and thought goes into the linguistics of the Orthodox faith, and we don't even notice it!
Matthew
i stand corrected...
:)
[quote author=Hisservant link=topic=7346.msg97457#msg97457 date=1227353413]
but to follow up on what u said, because it didnt seem clear.
WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN TRANSUBSTANTIATION just in case anyone misunderstood
thanx for clearing that up i have often wondered and was going to ask
look to be honest with you all i think a definition of terms would be helpful number 1 the term good at the beginning of this thread it was said that good catholics and good protestants would go to heaven so could someone pleas tell me what is the definition of good and what is heaven?
also it was said by our lord why do you call me good for no one is good exept God alone Mark 10:18 Christ also said "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." John 3:3 this is the problem i have with the Roman Catholic church in Roman Catholic doctrine they say that the church saves you but here in John clearly Jesus is saying that He is the one who saves
now am i saying that Roman Catholics will not be saved no b/c many of them are believers in Christ but at the same time lets look at what the Roman Catholic church says about salvation
As for Protestants well they (and i really should say I) rely totally and completely of the transforming work of Christ in my life to draw me closer to God renewing my mind each day and looking forward to eternity were i will glorify God and enjoy him forever :) for a prodistant the holy Eucharist takes on two forms either consubstantiation (Christ is divinely there but not in a literal since) or Symbolically (The bread and wine are symbols and therefore communion is a remembrance of the work of Christs death and resurrection)
NESS<><
Matthew 9:12 (New King James Version)
12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
That means:
Romans 3:23 (New King James Version)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...
So I go to Church not because I am spiritually healthy but because I need the healing power of God in my life! A relationship entails action. We cooperate with God's grace by doing all the above, in faith, with God obviously having the greater part. This relationship is called synergy (working together- Greek: syn= "the same, together" and ergos= energy,work):
2 Corinthians 6
Marks of the Ministry
1 We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.
Philippians 2:12-13 (New King James Version)
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
This does not take away from Christ working in because IT IS Christ working in us (His Grace and Mercy):
Ephesians 2:8-10 (New King James Version)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Our Orthodox Faith is a religion of ACTION but not of action ALONE. The fruits of a living faith is a life of good works and being deified:
2 Peter 1:3-4 (New King James Version)
3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these [glow=red,2,300]you may be partakers of the divine nature,[/glow] having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Does this cancel out non-Orthodox believers? Not really, since our God is a merciful God:
1 Timothy 2:4 (New King James Version)
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
John 4 (New King James Version)
19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
The Lord says even though the Jews and the Samaritans had their differences, salvation is of the Jews (the Lord Jesus was Jewish). So we cannot say God isn't outside the Orthodox Church since He cannot be contained in a box (but a little humble Jewish girl contained the Uncontainable One in her holy womb for 9 months) but we can say God is here more fully because we are that New Testament Church- His Body on earth- you have read about. We have the historical and sacramental credentials. Noah had his Ark, but there was probably a few survivors following the Ark in their own little rowboats and rafts... ;). Amen.
i have been asked a question by a protestant friend that is too difficult for me to answer, maybe coz i don't debate these things deeply enough.
anyway i was trying to explain that the bread and wine change to become the body and blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and to say that it was more than a symbol with spiritual benefits (like my friend believes). i was saying that God is present in the bread and wine itself, not just present by being with our spirits.
then my friend asked whether or not this change happened also at the last supper when Jesus gave out the bread and the wine to His disciples, and if so, how could Jesus be present with an intact body standing before them and also present in the bread and wine. also if not, this would show (to my friend) that it's not important for us to think He is present in the bread and wine.
i tend to think (i am not sure) that the bread and wine at the last supper were not like holy communion because Jesus had not died at that time, but was sitting in front of them for them to touch and look at. He was showing them what they must do in the future as well as showing them the real meaning of the passover meal and showing how its symbolism pointed to Him and His salvation for us. then after He died, when they took communion, they could not physically see Him but He was present in the bread and wine instead.
can anyone enlighten me?
it was the real body and blood of our Lord Jesus. Because God is outside of time.
Some say, that also Abraham took the hl. communion when he met the priest Melchisedek. And also Elijah. While he was sleeping & resting, the angel came to him and brought him something to drink and to eat. Then he started the journey to the mountain Horeb.
Here you can prove about Elijah (part 6):
http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=81&Itemid=26
Hope it helps.
Please pray for me.