Hello,
I would like to know what the position of the CoC is with respect to Israel's right to exist.
As far as I can see, Israel was only created in 1948. Menachem Begin said that it was the land of their forefathers.
Biblically speaking, who does this land belong to?
Comments
Many Jews also are against the existence of Israel !!!
Biblically speaking I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) the concept of the promised land of the OT has been replaced by the Kingdom of Heaven in the NT (I deduct this from the comparison between Mozes freeing his people from slavery in Egypt and leading them to the promised land to Jesus freeing his people from the slavery of sin and death and leading them to Heaven). Thus the jews are still thinking about an earthly promised land (as they don't believe in the NT), so it was indeed the land of their forefathers, but they don't have the right to be there now...
God bless you
Please pray for my weakness
But etymologically speaking, what happened?
God promised the decendants of Jacob land. How come in 1948 or 1946 (i forget) - they were just given that land?
Israeli's today have Israeli passports. But I would like to know is: what nationality were they before 1946? Before the state of Israel came into existance, the jewish people existed and lived in Palestine no doubt? Right? So why then did they have the need for a jewish state if they already had a state for themselves?? Why the need to evict palestinians from their homes and make them refugees?? Why was that necessary?
Most people living in Israel are immigrants from various countries, especially Europe (note that 1948 was right after the WW II and thus also the holocaust)... But also African jews were lured to go live in Israel, but they are treated terribly and there is a lot of discrimination against them as they are not white and thus are not regarded as real jews...
Just a point historically speaking - at different times the land was Israel (during the era of Kings David and Solomon) and other times it was Palestine and so forth. No one country can ever say that land was their country.
The same goes for Egypt. We used to own land all the way to Syria, and then the Greeks took us over, the Romans did as well and so did the Persians. It doesnt mean we can come forward today and say we'll take Damascus because historically it was part of the Egyptian Empire.
Biblically speaking, the Bible is clear that because the Jews disobeyed God they would be scattered around the world forever and never be united (hence many Jews are anti the idea of the State of Israel).
Morally, the idea of the State of Israel may be ok - but only within the boundaries of the United Nations. Israel does not accept this and continues to confiscate Palestinian land and hold the Palestinian people to siege.
Last, we know the Israelis have still refused to give us back our Coptic Monastery (Deir al-Sultan). The decision by Pope Shenouda to ban Coptics from visiting Israel is, in my opinion, a very wise and brave decision. My understanding though is that we can visit Palestine with no problem (i.e. Gaza, if we so desire and any other part of Palestine we can enter without going through Israel).
Remember to keep the Holy Father in your prayers.
Matt
What's been so far is totally correct.
Just a point historically speaking - at different times the land was Israel (during the era of Kings David and Solomon) and other times it was Palestine and so forth. No one country can ever say that land was their country.
The same goes for Egypt. We used to own land all the way to Syria, and then the Greeks took us over, the Romans did as well and so did the Persians. It doesnt mean we can come forward today and say we'll take Damascus because historically it was part of the Egyptian Empire.
Biblically speaking, the Bible is clear that because the Jews disobeyed God they would be scattered around the world forever and never be united (hence many Jews are anti the idea of the State of Israel).
Morally, the idea of the State of Israel may be ok - but only within the boundaries of the United Nations. Israel does not accept this and continues to confiscate Palestinian land and hold the Palestinian people to siege.
Last, we know the Israelis have still refused to give us back our Coptic Monastery (Deir al-Sultan). The decision by Pope Shenouda to ban Coptics from visiting Israel is, in my opinion, a very wise and brave decision. My understanding though is that we can visit Palestine with no problem (i.e. Gaza, if we so desire and any other part of Palestine we can enter without going through Israel).
Remember to keep the Holy Father in your prayers.
Matt
I know we are not jewish, but if someone can just confirm:
Israel, biblically speaking, has no right to exist?
Is it right that the UK just decided to create a Jewish state for jews in the Middle East out of Palestine? I mean, that bothers me.
Why does America always seem to want to concretise its relationship with Israel? What's in it for the Americans?
America keeps on blindly in the most biased and prejudiced manner conceivable, not only support Israel, but supports Israel terrorising Palestinians. As if the Palestinians are 2nd class citizens of the world. Not even... as if the Palestinians should ask themselves if they have a right to exist and be treated fairly.
I don't think because there's a lot of jewish influence in the W.House. I think because Americans are really religious & misinformed. They think that the jews deserve the land. It was their destiny from God. I've seen many documentaries where they (American evangelists) have said this.
But as Copts, do we subscribe to this idea? Apparently not - according to matt.
What do you think?
THe saddest and most hurtful images I've seen in my life is what is happening to palestinian people. Its killing just thinking about it.
Brigitte Gabriel's - Interview
From "American Congress For Truth"
i idea here is that how are judging Israel. As a country of people or as JEWS. As a country of people, ANY ONE HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE......they were given part of Palestine, khalas...now they just have to share it with the rest. and according to the video, the rest are not accepting sharing and want the whole pie. so it's greed.
Because one guy who's lebanese conned her, it doesnt mean all arabs are dishonest. When I go to Egypt, I get the same. Some people who are muslim are very honest, some are kilaab.
But - i'm more interested between right and wrong:
It doesnt mean that the existance of Israel is right. Because she had bad experiences with muslims in lebanon, it doesnt make Zionism correct.
Would you like it if I said :"I was more welcomed in a Protestant Church than in ANY coptic Church. I prefer protestant churches cos they are fun and nice and people are caring" - does that mean the Orthodox faith is bad??? Or is it better to be protestant??
You see what I mean when I say I'm interested in right and wrong?
I think one good thing about the video is I learnt a few things that could help answer this situation. I think America is intent on keeping the state of Israel simply because it attacks Islam. What america doesn't realise is that Islam will disintegrate, and yet you only fuel terrorism when you persistently engage and promote policies that are unfair.
Its clear that this woman is also biased. She says that she can now form an opinion WITHOUT arab propaganda. But she doesnt say :"Without Zionistic propaganda" also.
What the palestinians did in Lebanon and Jordan - i.e. to attack Israel from there was too much. They shouldnt have picked on non-muslim minorities.
Mina, before the creation of the Israeli state, jews and muslims were ALREADY living in Palestine in peace.. the Belfour treaty didnt nothing but make jews feel good that they had a land in their name - that they already dwelt in!!! That their forefathers dwelt in!! Israel is a family name. A people from the Patriarch Jacob.
Had this woman grown up in Jerusalem, she would be singing a totally different tune. I have many Christian friends from Jerusalem, and they have been evicted from their homes.
See Mina, what I think is America KNOWS very well that the way and policies that led to the state of Israel could have been either done MUCH better or were downright dishonest - but it is allowing it and promoting israel's existence simply because, whilst being jews, America has managed to nurture a democratic state similar to its own with freedom of press, freedom of speech and thought that a jewish society will allow rather than a closed "backward" one they may perceive is impossible with any islamic/arab nation.
But America has no right to force its view of democracy on the world. The lady in your video discribes freedom of speech as the ability to be able to "insult the President" - but, frankly speaking, I think we can all enjoy freedom and decency.
I would like to give you an example of an Arab nation that has a free press - but I cannot. There is NOT one. Which islamic nation could I look at and say :"Yes!! In this country, Chrstians and Muslims can debate about the validity of the Quran". IMPOSSIBLE!!! There is not one.
This could be the underlying reason why the US has a pro-Israeli foreign policy. It could be also why the Palestinians hate the Christians, because they see that?! I don't know??
But I really prefer to put assumptions and theories aside and focus on the truth, and I think if the Palestinians had also not made this into a Holy War from the beginning (i.e. involving religion) then it would have been solved sooner.
I really wanna keep islam out of this. Islam will have its own reckoning one fine day. But let's keep this based on biblical facts:
Biblically, does Israel have the right to exist??
First about that Protestant-Coptic church going…..this is what I would have to say, it’s EVERYONE’S fault…
- The Coptic Church people by not welcoming you, which is see is hard with out a good reason
- You for going to a false church when you know it is. You are not following the TRUTH now, instead you are following the “fun and nice and people are caring”
OK, if you really want to answer the question leave any other factors out of it. America, all other countries, anything else. America worries about her own, meaning that the “forcing of democracy” that you are talking about is not only done for the sake of the people of that country, but AMERICA’S sake. Everything is done with a benefit to the country, many just don’t see it right. So let’s stay away from that.
You said it perfectly. Both are, Arabs and Jew used to live together peacefully, but look now...when Jews decided to separate and have a part of the place they lived in before, no they don’t deserve it. You are telling me they don’t have the right. So wait, now you are treating them as second class citizens!!!! Correct me if I am wrong. Very similar to all the problems we have in Egypt these days, (not that I agree with most ways to deal with it). Well yes. This is freedom of speech. But of course there are limits to it. Ya3ny your not gonna go to the president and tell him, as they guy who through the shoes did “this is the end you dog”…..this didn’t mean anything to Bush. He doesn’t care. because the guy is an Iraqi, doesn’t really know right way of “freedom of speech.” It’s really unintelligent to consider that as a huge insult, not considering what AMERICAN press and people have been saying about Bush since starting the war. Did he stop any of them, NOPE. It’s their right, as long as it is in the limits. Who said that they don’t consider this a Holy War. This is the SOURCE of all “Holy Wars” muslims become terrorist for. I have seen MANY DOCUMENTARIES done with people who LIVED in Palestine and were even former-terrorists in many ways who are saying this. All of these people and you are telling me this is more political than religions!!!!
Brigitte Gabriel obviously has her own agenda. As a Christian, she's sick of what Islam did to her and her family and her home. She's rooting for the jews because - well, if two people share the same enemy, that makes them best friends.
I really wanna keep islam out of this. Islam will have its own reckoning one fine day. But let's keep this based on biblical facts:
Biblically, does Israel have the right to exist??
As the Bible says, every human being have the right to exist!!!!
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7449.msg98416#msg98416 date=1229448553]
Brigitte Gabriel obviously has her own agenda. As a Christian, she's sick of what Islam did to her and her family and her home. She's rooting for the jews because - well, if two people share the same enemy, that makes them best friends.
I really wanna keep islam out of this. Islam will have its own reckoning one fine day. But let's keep this based on biblical facts:
Biblically, does Israel have the right to exist??
As the Bible says, every human being have the right to exist!!!!
Mina I think he's talking about the nation, not the people themselves
Let's focus on one issue:
Biblically, is zionism correct? Should Jews give themselves a land like this?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7449.msg98419#msg98419 date=1229449174]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7449.msg98416#msg98416 date=1229448553]
Brigitte Gabriel obviously has her own agenda. As a Christian, she's sick of what Islam did to her and her family and her home. She's rooting for the jews because - well, if two people share the same enemy, that makes them best friends.
I really wanna keep islam out of this. Islam will have its own reckoning one fine day. But let's keep this based on biblical facts:
Biblically, does Israel have the right to exist??
As the Bible says, every human being have the right to exist!!!!
Mina I think he's talking about the nation, not the people themselves
the nation is the People. the LORD whenever he spoke about Israel said "Israel My people".
What is a nation without PEOPLE!
Mina,
Let's focus on one issue:
Biblically, is zionism correct? Should Jews give themselves a land like this?
read what i have said before. ANSWER IT, before you keep repeating the same question.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7449.msg98421#msg98421 date=1229449891]
Mina,
Let's focus on one issue:
Biblically, is zionism correct? Should Jews give themselves a land like this?
read what i have said before. ANSWER IT, before you keep repeating the same question.
Can u just tell me the question u want me to answer again?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7449.msg98424#msg98424 date=1229450634]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7449.msg98421#msg98421 date=1229449891]
Mina,
Let's focus on one issue:
Biblically, is zionism correct? Should Jews give themselves a land like this?
read what i have said before. ANSWER IT, before you keep repeating the same question.
Can u just tell me the question u want me to answer again?
..........................funny
Theologically or biblically speaking, if Israel does have a state - is that in anyway contradictory to God's Will??
Personally, and for the record, I have nothing against jewish people, I'm just curious about all this.
Look at this:
Zechariah 12:3 KJV - In this verse God said:
"And in that day (today) will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it."
You know how they interpret this?
That Jerusalem has to be protected. The City. That's why evangelicals, of which a lot of White House officials are, want the state of Israel to exist: they honestly feel they must protect Jerusalem. The city.. the physical city.
We see this verse in a spirital context, its not the city, but what it represents.
What Im concerned about is i've come to realise the support for Zionism by the USA is underlined or driven by the belief that the Holy Land is the inheritance of Christians and Jews. Our inheritance is the heavenly Jerusalem, not a side street downtown jerusalem where a guy can sell me a shisha for 20 dollars.
I believe ignorance of the Christian faith has a lot to do with this.
To be honest, the UK did not give the Jews Israel becuase they were in ignorance of the Bible, they were trying to be as impartial as possible. It was more out of pity than anything, and like here decided to take a part of the OT and used it.
Yes, OK my friend... whether it was out of pity or stupidity, it was the UK that gave them palestine as a homeland for the jews.
But the fact that the jews think they deserve a homeland as their inheritance... what do you think??
Our promise is that inheritance, and its not Jerusalem in Palestine, it is Jerusalem in Heaven. No?
Is this land, THEOLOGICALLY, DOGMATICALLY theirs????
The problem is this. I mean, the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is this: EDUCATION.
Christians think that Palestine is for the jews - i.e. it was their inheritance. Jewish Orthodox Rabbis do not subscribe to this. They believe that they will only receive the promised land when the Messiah comes.
As a Christian, we know that the saints are in the bossom of Abraham, Issac and Jacob - IN HEAVEN. Not in a grave in Jerusalem!!!! Our inheritance is heavenly. Our promise is the inheritance of the Heavenly Jerusalem.. not the physical.
Ignorant evangelicals, catholics - etc feel the need to protect Israel's existence simply because they feel if it went to the Palestinians, then they'd lose this inheritance that God has promised them!!!
This is the root cause of the problem. America is SO religious , and so ignorant in their faith. Arabs and Jews were living together peacefully before the state of Israel came into existence in 1948.
this video is very moving:
So essentially, Israel is used to fall back on?
God didnt give the jews uninhabited land. It was inhabited already. But I don't understand what u mean about fall back on?
When you said that the catholics and such were afraid of not giving the Jews Jerusalem for the eternal kingdom and such. i was referring to tht.
The jews until this day (Orthodox Jews) do not acknowledge the State of Israel. They hate Israel as a state, and feel that using the name of their Patriarch Jacob to "steal" land off others is wrong.
But what is pushing for this? The ignorant christians who feel that this land is the official inheritance of jewish people. I am not jewish!!!!! I am Christian. I guess I would be a gentile. What is my inheritance?? Lebanon? Hebron? Cana? Gaza strip?? That's my inheritance from God?? !!!!
This entire support for Israel is driven by misinformed Christians in offices power in the USA where they believe that Jews must be the autonomous owners of that land.
The Messiah HAS come. They missed the boat. Our citizenship is not the Gaza strip nor Ramalla, nor Some small cafe in Jerusalem, it is Heavenly.
I could be wrong, but the state of Israel has only caused problems for the USA. If you look at how much money it has spent on building Israel, and then how much the war in Iraq cost, + 9/11 - its huge. All this was triggered by Israel's existence which it not only supported but advocated.
So, can someone finally tell me:
BIBLICALLY, THEOLOGICALLY, or DOGMATICALLY, whatever, u name it, in the eyes of God, Our God, the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, does the State of Israel have the right to exist? The Zionists claim it is their inheritance.
Thanks