I was asked by a Muslim friend this question and I was embarrassed that I did not know the answer!
Do we have special "rules" while we are engaged? For example are we allowed to kiss, etc? My friend explained to me that for Muslims when they are engaged the man is allowed to see her hair if she is mo7agaba, etc.
Comments
I was asked by a Muslim friend this question and I was embarrassed that I did not know the answer!
Do we have special "rules" while we are engaged? For example are we allowed to kiss, etc? My friend explained to me that for Muslims when they are engaged the man is allowed to see her hair if she is mo7agaba, etc.
first let me tell you about the way it's in Islam, as i learned it.
the have Katb-el-ketab, which means they are legally married......just not in that sexual way yet (as in their own house....do what they do). and "el-dokhla", as sexual as it sounds, it means what it sounds like. you cannot break those. now the "engagement", which is technically our church term, is the period from "eraiet el-fatha" to "kateb-el-ketab"....
now in our Church, NOW, engagement is the period before the wedding ceremony. the Church recommends it to be atleast 6 month. In them, you can do NOTHING that you are allowed to do only in marriage, you are couple TO BE, but not yet couples. But of course being together wouldn't look BAD, because that is what the announcement of engagement is for. you are together untill you are FULLY be together. the reason for all of this is that, until the "Fulfillment of the Mystery" prayer in the wedding ceremony liturgy, you can still separate and not become married. am not saying that this happens......but it is the way it's to be.
Is that like not rgt? ???
Finally, my church engagment is this summer in Alex, egypt! :) and i would like for my fience to kiss me.... and take me in his arms.
Is that like not rgt? ???
well the kissing part, just make sure it's not a "french kiss"....becuae that is part of marriage.
you know I was reading this thing a few years back... "a kiss leads to a french kiss... a french kiss leads to a hug... a hug leads to a touch... a touch leads to mish 3aref eh... and mish 3aref eh leads to mish 3aref eh, and etc.." sorry I'm keeping it as PG as I can! lol
so even a kiss, I don't know as many would allow it, I look down upon it... I have written a book about this, and the time of engagement, in my opinion should be as sexless as untouchable as possible! that's why its usually advised this time should be six months to a year at max, because humans are weak, especially men! do everything together side by side... but don't mingle in a sexual manner... because you are training yourself for when you're married, not to have only sexual relations and that's it, but rather love! out of the 365 days, you will have to abstain from sex for 200 or more days! so these few months are there to help you love your partner, and do everything... yet not have any sexual relations... statistically after roughly 3-7 years... a husband and wife become "friends" and "occasionally" have sex, and if you look at the divorce rates... that's when it usually is! so if you are not certain of your sexless love in this time... then you will not have much of a successful marriage!
for Muslims... they have "eraiet el fataha"... or as best translated, "the reading of the begging" its the same as us! and who ever told you they can see her hair... IS WRONG!!! they are actually not allowed (in the right Islamic rules) to see his bride, until he is in the bed!
as weird as it is... but that is how it actually used to be that is how it used to be, its even in the bible... if you remember Jacob, he didn't even know it was Leah, instead of Rachel... he knew the next morning after he "went" in her... so it was the custom that no one sees the bride except after the marriage...
this is an extreme... so a person is allowed to see his/her fiancee... they can plan everything together... but remember that relation can end at anytime! so practice a nonsexual... not "over" touchy healthy relationship!
akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
holding hands is fine, and maybe sideways hugging (i.e. not like in most hollywood movies but the type of hugging u do with your sibling) just remember we are all weak and make sure you don't get anytime alone, it sounds strict, but you can have a private chat in one room of the house when there is someone else in another room, knowing they might come in at any minute should help you to hold back from displeasing God. some worldly people may say you miss out if you don't 'try before you buy' but i can assure you it's not true; there is something particularly beautiful about spending your first evening together after marriage. if you didn't get very far before marriage, you can catch up easily on the honeymoon!
and for those that already tried and didn't buy, just because you have fallen once doesn't mean there is no point in keeping yourself away from further sin. this is a lie of the devil. it's just as important for you as for those who are virgins that you keep away from sin, and if you are weak, maybe it is more important to have a chaperone to help you spend the rest of the engagement in chastity.
remember that this side of things is only part of the relationship, for all those who are engaged or considering engagement, it is very important you pray together regularly and discuss your plans for the future early on in the relationship; if one person wants to travel the world preaching and the other wants a research chemistry job in a developed country and to have seven children, then it may be time to rethink before you go very far.
if anyone reading this is single, remember there is always an option of staying single. many monks and nuns have special blessings from God, so check out His will for you; don't drift with the tide.
marriage, children, a job, a place to live - none of these are guaranteed, remember Jesus didn't have them.
may He bless us all as we live for His glory
I was asked by a Muslim friend this question and I was embarrassed that I did not know the answer!
Do we have special "rules" while we are engaged? For example are we allowed to kiss, etc? My friend explained to me that for Muslims when they are engaged the man is allowed to see her hair if she is mo7agaba, etc.
I think when you get engaged, it is best to treat the girl (and for her to treat u) in a way that you would like someone to treat your father or mother. This is the only rule I can suggest. If marriage is a holy sacrament, I think the process that leads up to it should be holy too. You should try to lead each other into holiness and not really into temptation.
Of course the opposite sexes attract, and that's exactly how it should be, and that's a blessing to be attracted to each other, but the efforts you make in trying to be steadfast in this period, you will reap their benefits 100 fold when you marry and have children.
I think we discussed in this forum the rules with respect to how coptics from different cultures get engaged. Copts from Egypt have to buy a shabka for their fiance (1 gram of shabka for every kilio of her body weight.. something like that.. I don't know how it works exactly), or something expensive anyway so the man has no money left to take the metro home, and perhaps Copts from Europe, who are European - may date informally or be friends for a long time before approaching their FoC with the idea of marriage.
Whatever culture you are from, the best way is really to lead the other into holiness and not temptation. The shabka or ring, or jewelery is not the essential thing, but what is essential is your committment to each other and your committment to honour what you are asking God to bless.
;)
God bless you
so the young ladies from egypt will be eating loads after Christmas to get a big shakba?
;)
I don't know Egyptian culture that well... but I just assumed that was the case from all the stories I heard. All my friends from Egypt cannot afford to buy clothes and yet their fiances demand big shabkas... and then i noticed something really weired:
They were all fat. I mean, really meluzzluzzeen - BIG TIME! Kollohom!!
So, naturally, I put 2+2 together, and I realised that PERHAPS the idea is to give them a shabka proportional to their weight. It seems like 100 euros per kilo is the average price.
Listen, most arguments between couples start because stuff like this, so I think its best to get abouna to weigh the benayya (the female Coptic human specie) 1st to make sure the man isn't ripped off and gets a good deal for his money.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=7462.msg98905#msg98905 date=1230729829]
so the young ladies from egypt will be eating loads after Christmas to get a big shakba?
;)
I don't know Egyptian culture that well... but I just assumed that was the case from all the stories I heard. All my friends from Egypt cannot afford to buy clothes and yet their fiances demand big shabkas... and then i noticed something really weired:
They were all fat. I mean, really meluzzluzzeen - BIG TIME! Kollohom!!
So, naturally, I put 2+2 together, and I realised that PERHAPS the idea is to give them a shabka proportional to their weight. It seems like 100 euros per kilo is the average price.
Listen, most arguments between couples start because stuff like this, so I think its best to get abouna to weigh the benayya (the female Coptic human specie) 1st to make sure the man isn't ripped off and gets a good deal for his money.
hahaha, well, I don't think there are rules for the shabka, although I can imagine, the more expensive the better, but I'm afraid your logic is somewhat flawed QT, but nice try! lol :D
It's exactly like buying a cow.
The farmer will tell you: "How much do u want to pay"?
The person interested will say "What can she do"?
Then the farmer will say "look - she's high quality and can give you milk for a good 20 years left".
The man says "But what about the price?"
The farmer says "The market value for my cow is 100 egyptian pounds per kilo".
The man (my friend) commented and said "yes, but she doesn't seem to be in good shape".
Honestly, that's EXACTLY what he said to me. He really felt like he was buying a cow from a farmer.
Listen, my friend wasn't a kid, he was telling me that it felt like the girl's father was selling a cow.
Listen, a friend of mine got engaged and he went through this, and this is what he told me:
It's exactly like buying a cow.
The farmer will tell you: "How much do u want to pay"?
The person interested will say "What can she do"?
Then the farmer will say "look - she's high quality and can give you milk for a good 20 years left".
The man says "But what about the price?"
The farmer says "The market value for my cow is 100 egyptian pounds per kilo".
The man (my friend) commented and said "yes, but she doesn't seem to be in good shape".
Honestly, that's EXACTLY what he said to me. He really felt like he was buying a cow from a farmer.
Listen, my friend wasn't a kid, he was telling me that it felt like the girl's father was selling a cow.
and i would agree. that the way it is looked upon in egypt!!!!
;)
Khosho il dair ya gama3a. That's all I can say!
;)
best of alllllll.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7462.msg98927#msg98927 date=1230758744]
Khosho il dair ya gama3a. That's all I can say!
;)
best of alllllll.
lol!! ur right!! it is best!!
Khosho il dair ya gama3a. That's all I can say!
;)
YES!!
eshteri demaghak and become a monk/nun ;D
Oh and I like the idea of the farmer and the cow :D
Matthew
`mperer`pwbs `ntlac `nrem`n<ymi etaueragiazin `mmok `nououyb[/coptic]
Don't forget the Coptic language when you are ordained a priest
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]Mat;eoc pamenrit>
`mperer`pwbs `ntlac `nrem`n<ymi etaueragiazin `mmok `nououyb[/coptic]
Don't forget the Coptic language when you are ordained a priest
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
Haha I don't think you have anything to worry about. I don't think I'll be ordained a priest anytime soon...God wouldn't inflict such a horrible punishment on His church :P
Matthew
(it's ok when i got married my life savings were in the region of £150 and we did spend half of it on the wedding rings!)
london copt, don't worry, u don't need to get ordained or married to do the Lord's work, just keep going, trust in God and don't sign anything given to you by your mum/ f.o.c. !
i personally think there's a great need in the church for non-ordained people to do weekday bible studies, evangelism etc (obviously under supervision of the priest) i think we need to take the load off some of priests who are doing it all while people sit back and criticize comfortably from the back benches.
Apparently, we all have different values. Microvalues amongst us. A Coptic Church Marriage councellor told us this many years ago. That even the Christian values between 2 Coptic adults differ from each other. Not perhaps by that much, but there could be a small difference.
I just want to say that regardless of these differences, what should be paramount is the intention and will of each person to treat the other person's body as the temple of the Holy Spirit. More importantly, is to treat your own body and heart as the temple of the Holy Spirit, and not to make compromises on that. And I'm not an Egyptian. I'm a Chrisitian.
I find it very odd (personally speaking) that Copts who demand shabkas are short sighted of what really they are asking for. Is asking for a shabka like a deposit? Then is a Coptic girl in that case in risk of being treated as an Object for sale?
I'm not judging this culture, nor the idea of the shabka, I just think that as Christians, what should differentiate us is our desire to live in sexual purity.
That was the Bible reading for the 1st of January:
The 1st Council of Jerusalem is the Bible reading on January the 1st. And the ONLY thing that the Apostle advises the gentiles is - it is not essential to be circumsized to be Christian, but ONLY to continue in the faith and abstain from sexual immorality. This should be in the heart of every Christian. Not how much they are worth per kilo, or whatever their method of calculating the cost of the shabka is.
Finally, I wanted to clarify one small thing: the story of the farmer and the cow is just to explain the "FEELING" some copts may experience or view the idea of the shabka. I don't think they see women in this way, and I may not be that familiar with the Egyptian culture, but I know that there is enormous respect between couples regardless of the shabka they bought. For a lot of women, the shabka is a sign of honour. That unless a man gets her something expensive, she's being ripped off. But this idea worries me as - as Christians, we do not need these things to feel valued. The entire philosophy of Christianity is it is not in status or prestige that I aquire self worth, but in treating my heart as the temple of the Holy Spirit.
can i ask where yr from if yr not egyptian? i am not either, but i love the accent ('aamiya) and the food ;)