[quote author=Melchoir link=topic=7480.msg109186#msg109186 date=1263209680] In case you haven't seen this, please try to follow the reactions to the Malaysian "Allah" case....
If anything, this story only reflects the ignorance of muslims, their brutality, and their closed-mindedness (or maybe that is what they will be very happy about). In any case, it is pointless if I go over what other members have said, but at the same time I can't stop using the word "Allah" when I am speaking in Arabic language (unless I get specific advice from the Church). God bless you all [coptic]ere V] `cmou erwten tyrou oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
This is an interesting discussion I've had with many Muslims and Christians. In light of the Malaysian "Allah" situation, I think it is difficult to say that it doesn't matter since it has such an impact on the lives of many people.
From what I can understand from discussion with Muslims about this issue, they are upset that non-Muslim, non-Arabic speakers would use "Allah" because it seems like an attempt to proselytize Muslims. They say that the native word (in Malay, or Bengali, or whatever language) is not "Allah", so why do they use "Allah" except to try to confuse or trick Muslims into leaving their faith. I think this argument is very ignorant, but then I often think that when I hear the kinds of arguments Muslims make in favor of Islam.
My point of view is this: Muslims obviously think that they "own" the word Allah, and in some ways they do have unique claims about it - I have never heard a Christian or a Jew claim that "Allah" is a proper name, but I know that Muslims say that it is!
They're wrong on all counts, of course. For those languages that are not Semitic but still share the word "Allah", it is only through Muslim subjugation of the native people. So it bothers me that Muslims would want to now change their minds and say that only certain groups can use "Allah". They did not seem so concerned in past eras when they forced their language on Christians and others in North and East Africa, the Syriac-speaking Levant, Persia, etc. Now they want to make new rules because they have been too successful at this? Too bad. I just a few days ago found a recording of a Javanese (Indonesian) Roman Catholic mass from the 1960s, where almost all the songs contain the word "Allah". I wonder who complained at that time? Rulings like this one in Malaysia are a sign of increasing Islamic radicalism and separatism. I don't like it one bit.
I only speak a little bit of Arabic myself, but if I use it to pray simple prayers, they always contain "Allah". I know who it is that I am (and am not!) praying to, and if this upsets Muslims, then too bad. It bothers me whenever I hear them trying to proselytize by saying that "Allah" is just the word for God like any Christian would use that word in English, when I know that in their own theology it is something more, because if I ask them if it is right that I use it to pray to the Holy Trinity, they all say no way! :P
I may be wrong, and please pardon me incase I say something that upsets someone, but I think, Arab Christians, Copts in particular should give a thought of abandoning to call the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, our Lord Jesus Christ, with the name "Allah". Their God is not our God!
you are right Melchoir our God is not theirs but we also don't believe that God's name is Allah. That's just the Arabic translation for the word god as mentioned before. Do you recall Daniel the prophet's story? He ignored the king's orders and carried on praying in his loft with open windows towards the east as he was used to doing in all his life. He never feared and knew God will help him whatever he did. [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Allah, like the English word God (which comes from German), existed before Islam and Christianity, to represent the concept of the Supreme Being or Deity to the people they brought their religion to respectively.
I recall the time when St Paul came to Athens, and he remarked about seeing the Altar "to the Unknown Deity (God)" in Acts (Acts 17). What he then did with the concept that the Greek philosophers already had, and moved them to the Christian and true understanding of God.
Look how he acheived this:
1) Affirmed that they had worshipped the true God in some form: "Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you:" "for some of your own poets have said, "For we are also his offspring"
2) Gave them a fuller understanding of God "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is the Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands..." He moved them to materialistic understanding of God to a more spiritual understanding
"Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone...."
3) Calling of the God they worshipped in ignorance "so that they should seek the Lord, in hope...for in Him we live and move and have our beings..."
"now commands all men everywhere to repent"
The interesting thing, if we take your idea that we abandon the use of "Allah" in Arabic speaking countries, how in the world would you be able to Evangelise? You will have no vantage point at all- no common idea to build upon when you discuss and share your hope with Muslims that comes from your faith.
I think St. Paul serves to show that God is He Who Is, and that the reverence to the Name of God is in our faith and true understanding of Him.
The interesting thing, if we take your idea that we abandon the use of "Allah" in Arabic speaking countries, how in the world would you be able to Evangelise? You will have no vantage point at all- no common idea to build upon when you discuss and share your hope with Muslims that comes from your faith.
Dear Clay, the Muslims used the same pretext to Islamize milliones of christians and Jews: they say they have the same God of Abraham and Moses as the Jews and the Christians. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses is the same God of Mohammed. So why pretend, or even lie that we have the same God which is called "Allah" to attract Muslims to Christianity? Christianity doesn't need that. In fact, unless we are trying to wake them up with a louder sound, like Father Boutros Zakaria does it, it is too late for them to see the truth, they will be lost forever. And in Christian love, the TRUTH matters much!
[quote author=Melchoir link=topic=7480.msg109610#msg109610 date=1264433344] the Muslims used the same pretext to Islamize milliones of christians and Jews: they say they have the same God of Abraham and Moses as the Jews and the Christians. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses is the same God of Mohammed.
I really do not mean to sound cynical, but...it worked, didn't it? That does not make it true, but if you want to evangelize Muslims, doesn't it make more sense to start from where they see themselves, not where you see them? If you start from their own understanding, you can correct things in a way that responds to their concerns. Simply saying "We do not worship the same God" does nothing to help them understand the true God, who is not worshiped in Islam.
Not to mention that there is simply no other word in Arabic for "God", is there?
So why pretend, or even lie that we have the same God which is called "Allah" to attract Muslims to Christianity? Christianity doesn't need that. In fact, unless we are trying to wake them up with a louder sound, like Father Boutros Zakaria does it, it is too late for them to see the truth, they will be lost forever. And in Christian love, the TRUTH matters much!
Christianity's needs are one thing, but it is important to remember that Muslims definitely need Christ. But there is no reason to say that anyone is pretending. Muslims are the ones who have added very specific claims to their idea of "Allah" that are not accepted by the pre-existing Arab Christians (the Ghassanids, Lakhmids and others who existed before Islam), so isn't it better to correct the wrong ideas that Muslims have about "Allah" than to say the word "Allah" should be eliminated from the Arabic language?
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=7480.msg109631#msg109631 date=1264487168] [quote author=Melchoir link=topic=7480.msg109610#msg109610 date=1264433344] the Muslims used the same pretext to Islamize milliones of christians and Jews: they say they have the same God of Abraham and Moses as the Jews and the Christians. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses is the same God of Mohammed.
I really do not mean to sound cynical, but...it worked, didn't it? That does not make it true, but if you want to evangelize Muslims, doesn't it make more sense to start from where they see themselves, not where you see them? If you start from their own understanding, you can correct things in a way that responds to their concerns. Simply saying "We do not worship the same God" does nothing to help them understand the true God, who is not worshiped in Islam.
Not to mention that there is simply no other word in Arabic for "God", is there?
So why pretend, or even lie that we have the same God which is called "Allah" to attract Muslims to Christianity? Christianity doesn't need that. In fact, unless we are trying to wake them up with a louder sound, like Father Boutros Zakaria does it, it is too late for them to see the truth, they will be lost forever. And in Christian love, the TRUTH matters much!
Christianity's needs are one thing, but it is important to remember that Muslims definitely need Christ. But there is no reason to say that anyone is pretending. Muslims are the ones who have added very specific claims to their idea of "Allah" that are not accepted by the pre-existing Arab Christians (the Ghassanids, Lakhmids and others who existed before Islam), so isn't it better to correct the wrong ideas that Muslims have about "Allah" than to say the word "Allah" should be eliminated from the Arabic language?
Thanks for your post. I thought the same, and you were able to communicate it better than I would.
As shown before, missionaries have often adopted the language of natives and built the concept of the immaterial, spiritual God of Christians, to a word they understood to mean what we think of when we say "Deity".
You would, by the way, not find the word "God" in the original manuscripts.
we know that we worship the Father, God Almighty. who sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God and the Way the Truth and the Life, and Saviour.
the Muslim Allah is the god of the Quran, and of Islam.... the Allah of Islam did not send Jesus, create the heavens and the earth, or give us life.
we know we are praying to our Father and not to the Muslim god Allah when we use the word "Allah".
Muslims may use that to argue that they are really the "same God, with different names", but we know that is not the case. God can not both have a Son and not have a Son.
do Coptic Orthodox Christians often simply call God "Father"? i have also seen "Allah Abana" used in a Christian song.
I used to understand that the Arabic word Allah for God has its root in Semitic languages, i.e. it has the same root for both Arabic and Hebrew. Example: Raphael that I think means "God's mercy". Please correct that if wrong.
The main thread question would easily raise other similar ones: Why is the word God used in English? Also why is the word Dieu is used in French? And why is the word Dio is used in Italian? etc.
there seem to be two main theories about the word "Allah".
one states that Allah is from "al-ilah" meaning "the god" in Arabic.
another argues that Allah is from the Aramiac "Alaha", corresponding to the Hebrew "Eloah" (simgular of "Elohim").
either way the linguistic connections are there between Hebrew and Arabic. but linguistic connection or shared words does not mean that a specific religon's god is the God who made us and loves us, and who sent Christ.
Allah was a Pagan god... when Arabic became enforced to be spoken, they started translating a lot of the Coptic into Arabic, so that we may not erase our history, hymns, and etc... so when they began to search for a word to use for "God" they just used the Arabic word "Allah"
The same is true of the English word "God," which was used by Anglo-Saxons to refer to pagan deities for millennia until Christians appropriated it as the name of YHWH. BTW, the Koran also says HoWa, which is derived from YHWH in much the same way that "Jehova" is.
Dear @icowrich, I believe you are mistaken, howa in Arabic or in the qur'an refers to the pronoun he and isn't related near or far to Jehovah. Unless you give me an example that I am not aware of.. @mabsoota, first time I notice the comment you made six years ago. God reaches out to us all without taking us away from our cultures or nationalities.. oh wow.. this I think should serve to close many of the unnecessary hot debates going on on this website at the moment.. oujai khan ebshois
@mabsoota, first time I notice the comment you made six years ago. God reaches out to us all without taking us away from our cultures or nationalities.. oh wow.. this I think should serve to close many of the unnecessary hot debates going on on this website at the moment..
I'm sure there are pre-Islamic Arab Christian writings hidden somewhere, but until then, I have not heard of any being recovered, since those areas are governed by those who want to hide Arab Christian history. Is there something I do not know?
Regardless, the word "Allah" should not be shunned. I agree with the overall intent of the article. The best thing we know about God is that He is nameless. This is basic pre-Christian Jewish theology, the One who has no name, the God of gods, the King of kings, Elohim elShaddai (the most high God), YHWH ("I AM", replaced verbally with Adonai, believed by Jews to be unworthy to be pronounced), etc. So when we translate "Theo" or "Elohim" into the Coptic "Noute", I wouldn't be surprised if there is an ancient reference of some Egyptian pagan god named "Noute" either (I don't know what the exact roots for the word "Noute" is, but if it was connected in some way to ancient Egyptian paganism, this shouldn't be a deterrent to understanding the choice of the word). But it is one of the best human words (key word "human") to describe the indescribable. Same thing with the Arabic word "Allah". So I have no objection to the word.
In fact, I can find at least two Syrian Orthodox patriarchs in history with the names "AbdAllah" and "ShukrAllah". Imagine one of our Popes or bishops named with these names! Notice also how the Aramaic Alaho is very close to both the Hebrew "Elohim" and Arabic "Allah", which is probably why the Syrian Orthodox don't have a problem with Arabic name of "Allah". If Egyptian Muslims spoke Coptic rather than forsake it in the past, they might have stuck with Noute, or might have used Noute interchangeably with Allah, in the same way as many English-speaking Muslims use the word "God". So I wouldn't make a big deal about Copts who speak Arabic use the word "Allah".
Comments
In case you haven't seen this, please try to follow the reactions to the Malaysian "Allah" case....
http://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2010/01/08/should-you-be-able-to-call-your-god-whatever-you-want/
If anything, this story only reflects the ignorance of muslims, their brutality, and their closed-mindedness (or maybe that is what they will be very happy about). In any case, it is pointless if I go over what other members have said, but at the same time I can't stop using the word "Allah" when I am speaking in Arabic language (unless I get specific advice from the Church).
God bless you all
[coptic]ere V] `cmou erwten tyrou
oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
From what I can understand from discussion with Muslims about this issue, they are upset that non-Muslim, non-Arabic speakers would use "Allah" because it seems like an attempt to proselytize Muslims. They say that the native word (in Malay, or Bengali, or whatever language) is not "Allah", so why do they use "Allah" except to try to confuse or trick Muslims into leaving their faith. I think this argument is very ignorant, but then I often think that when I hear the kinds of arguments Muslims make in favor of Islam.
My point of view is this: Muslims obviously think that they "own" the word Allah, and in some ways they do have unique claims about it - I have never heard a Christian or a Jew claim that "Allah" is a proper name, but I know that Muslims say that it is!
They're wrong on all counts, of course. For those languages that are not Semitic but still share the word "Allah", it is only through Muslim subjugation of the native people. So it bothers me that Muslims would want to now change their minds and say that only certain groups can use "Allah". They did not seem so concerned in past eras when they forced their language on Christians and others in North and East Africa, the Syriac-speaking Levant, Persia, etc. Now they want to make new rules because they have been too successful at this? Too bad. I just a few days ago found a recording of a Javanese (Indonesian) Roman Catholic mass from the 1960s, where almost all the songs contain the word "Allah". I wonder who complained at that time? Rulings like this one in Malaysia are a sign of increasing Islamic radicalism and separatism. I don't like it one bit.
I only speak a little bit of Arabic myself, but if I use it to pray simple prayers, they always contain "Allah". I know who it is that I am (and am not!) praying to, and if this upsets Muslims, then too bad. It bothers me whenever I hear them trying to proselytize by saying that "Allah" is just the word for God like any Christian would use that word in English, when I know that in their own theology it is something more, because if I ask them if it is right that I use it to pray to the Holy Trinity, they all say no way! :P
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Allah, like the English word God (which comes from German), existed before Islam and Christianity, to represent the concept of the Supreme Being or Deity to the people they brought their religion to respectively.
I recall the time when St Paul came to Athens, and he remarked about seeing the Altar "to the Unknown Deity (God)" in Acts (Acts 17). What he then did with the concept that the Greek philosophers already had, and moved them to the Christian and true understanding of God.
Look how he acheived this:
1) Affirmed that they had worshipped the true God in some form:
"Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you:"
"for some of your own poets have said, "For we are also his offspring"
2) Gave them a fuller understanding of God
"God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is the Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands..."
He moved them to materialistic understanding of God to a more spiritual understanding
"Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone...."
3) Calling of the God they worshipped in ignorance
"so that they should seek the Lord, in hope...for in Him we live and move and have our beings..."
"now commands all men everywhere to repent"
The interesting thing, if we take your idea that we abandon the use of "Allah" in Arabic speaking countries, how in the world would you be able to Evangelise? You will have no vantage point at all- no common idea to build upon when you discuss and share your hope with Muslims that comes from your faith.
I think St. Paul serves to show that God is He Who Is, and that the reverence to the Name of God is in our faith and true understanding of Him.
i thinks this is a good reason to use the word 'Allah' for God when speaking arabic.
The interesting thing, if we take your idea that we abandon the use of "Allah" in Arabic speaking countries, how in the world would you be able to Evangelise? You will have no vantage point at all- no common idea to build upon when you discuss and share your hope with Muslims that comes from your faith.
Dear Clay, the Muslims used the same pretext to Islamize milliones of christians and Jews: they say they have the same God of Abraham and Moses as the Jews and the Christians. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses is the same God of Mohammed. So why pretend, or even lie that we have the same God which is called "Allah" to attract Muslims to Christianity? Christianity doesn't need that. In fact, unless we are trying to wake them up with a louder sound, like Father Boutros Zakaria does it, it is too late for them to see the truth, they will be lost forever. And in Christian love, the TRUTH matters much!
the Muslims used the same pretext to Islamize milliones of christians and Jews: they say they have the same God of Abraham and Moses as the Jews and the Christians. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses is the same God of Mohammed.
I really do not mean to sound cynical, but...it worked, didn't it? That does not make it true, but if you want to evangelize Muslims, doesn't it make more sense to start from where they see themselves, not where you see them? If you start from their own understanding, you can correct things in a way that responds to their concerns. Simply saying "We do not worship the same God" does nothing to help them understand the true God, who is not worshiped in Islam.
Not to mention that there is simply no other word in Arabic for "God", is there?
So why pretend, or even lie that we have the same God which is called "Allah" to attract Muslims to Christianity? Christianity doesn't need that. In fact, unless we are trying to wake them up with a louder sound, like Father Boutros Zakaria does it, it is too late for them to see the truth, they will be lost forever. And in Christian love, the TRUTH matters much!
Christianity's needs are one thing, but it is important to remember that Muslims definitely need Christ. But there is no reason to say that anyone is pretending. Muslims are the ones who have added very specific claims to their idea of "Allah" that are not accepted by the pre-existing Arab Christians (the Ghassanids, Lakhmids and others who existed before Islam), so isn't it better to correct the wrong ideas that Muslims have about "Allah" than to say the word "Allah" should be eliminated from the Arabic language?
[quote author=Melchoir link=topic=7480.msg109610#msg109610 date=1264433344]
the Muslims used the same pretext to Islamize milliones of christians and Jews: they say they have the same God of Abraham and Moses as the Jews and the Christians. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses is the same God of Mohammed.
I really do not mean to sound cynical, but...it worked, didn't it? That does not make it true, but if you want to evangelize Muslims, doesn't it make more sense to start from where they see themselves, not where you see them? If you start from their own understanding, you can correct things in a way that responds to their concerns. Simply saying "We do not worship the same God" does nothing to help them understand the true God, who is not worshiped in Islam.
Not to mention that there is simply no other word in Arabic for "God", is there?
So why pretend, or even lie that we have the same God which is called "Allah" to attract Muslims to Christianity? Christianity doesn't need that. In fact, unless we are trying to wake them up with a louder sound, like Father Boutros Zakaria does it, it is too late for them to see the truth, they will be lost forever. And in Christian love, the TRUTH matters much!
Christianity's needs are one thing, but it is important to remember that Muslims definitely need Christ. But there is no reason to say that anyone is pretending. Muslims are the ones who have added very specific claims to their idea of "Allah" that are not accepted by the pre-existing Arab Christians (the Ghassanids, Lakhmids and others who existed before Islam), so isn't it better to correct the wrong ideas that Muslims have about "Allah" than to say the word "Allah" should be eliminated from the Arabic language?
Thanks for your post. I thought the same, and you were able to communicate it better than I would.
As shown before, missionaries have often adopted the language of natives and built the concept of the immaterial, spiritual God of Christians, to a word they understood to mean what we think of when we say "Deity".
You would, by the way, not find the word "God" in the original manuscripts.
the Muslim Allah is the god of the Quran, and of Islam.... the Allah of Islam did not send Jesus, create the heavens and the earth, or give us life.
we know we are praying to our Father and not to the Muslim god Allah when we use the word "Allah".
Muslims may use that to argue that they are really the "same God, with different names", but we know that is not the case. God can not both have a Son and not have a Son.
do Coptic Orthodox Christians often simply call God "Father"? i have also seen "Allah Abana" used in a Christian song.
The main thread question would easily raise other similar ones:
Why is the word God used in English?
Also why is the word Dieu is used in French?
And why is the word Dio is used in Italian? etc.
GBU
one states that Allah is from "al-ilah" meaning "the god" in Arabic.
another argues that Allah is from the Aramiac "Alaha", corresponding to the Hebrew "Eloah" (simgular of "Elohim").
either way the linguistic connections are there between Hebrew and Arabic. but linguistic connection or shared words does not mean that a specific religon's god is the God who made us and loves us, and who sent Christ.
I believe you are mistaken, howa in Arabic or in the qur'an refers to the pronoun he and isn't related near or far to Jehovah. Unless you give me an example that I am not aware of..
@mabsoota,
first time I notice the comment you made six years ago. God reaches out to us all without taking us away from our cultures or nationalities.. oh wow.. this I think should serve to close many of the unnecessary hot debates going on on this website at the moment..
oujai khan ebshois