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Martial Arts
the subect is pretty clear, what do you guys think about martial arts? Is it wrong to practice? Ofcourse it wrong to hurt people, but I heard that even learning self defense is wrong, and i dont understand why. What do you guys think? Is it wrong for a Christians to practice martial arts as long as his intentions ar #1 never to start fights, #2 make sure that if he is pushed into a situation where he has no choice but to defend himself, he does only that, without harming the other person as best as he can
Comments
it's not the potential violence that's a problem with martial arts, although it may encourage violence, it's the fact that it's based on religions like buddism and shintoism, which worship spirits and ancestors. all the martial arts involve meditation, and any meditation that is not meditation on God is wrong. in the martial arts you 'reach out for your inner strength' or 'connect with the powers of the universe'. this is, in fact, a form of connection with the evil spirits. they won't appear evil at first, remember the devil can appear as an angel of light.
Matthew 4:10 says 'worship the Lord your God and serve Him only' so we should not be reaching out to any other power that does not acknowledge Jesus the Messiah by name. most people in developed countries who practice martial arts are agnostic (they don't know if there is a God and they are not particularly interested) so they don't emphasise the religious basis to the martial arts. they think these religions are all a bit weird and so they just ignore them. but if you ask your martial arts teacher to give you some information on the origin of the art, you will be surprised to learn about it.
it is not only wrong to interact with other spirits, it is also dangerous. it is the first step to moving away from God. in order to be really good at it, you need to meditate and practice and you will find more and more excuses to skip church or pray, like a very gradual but persistent weakening of your relationship with God.
in the same way, reading your horoscope is wrong. you need to ask yourself, is this 'knowledge' physical or spiritual? like if i tell you you are 1 metre 70cm tall, its not a revelation from God, its just that i'm good at estimating heights, but if i tell you you will meet 'someone special' at work, this is supernatural knowledge. yes, i know most of the time people who write them just guess, but its the fact that its sometimes right (supernaturally) that keeps people coming back for more. so, imagine i tell you you are going to meet someone special. you need to then ask yourself 'how does she know that?' if it is a prophecy from God (and this happens) you need to check 'is she a good Christian? does her life match her words?' and 'is she openly declaring this knowledge was given to her by Jesus?' if these answers are 'no', well there is another source of supernatural knowledge, yes, you've guessed, the devil again. yes. he really is out to damage our relationship with God and show us how 'exciting' life can be as we drift further and further from the truth. i have seen these things happening in peoples' lives, this is not just theory.
i don't believe the devil (or any of his assistant demons) can read our thoughts or make us do things. the psalms tell us that only God searches the heart. but they can make a note of what happened during our childhood and tell a fortune teller or other person telling the future, that, for example your parents divorced at a certain age then you were angry with your dad. they may go on to say 'you are still angry with him' because a demon may have witnessed you telling your friend 'i hate my dad'. so they DONT read our thoughts, they are NOT powerful like God but they do like to entice us away form God.
so if anyone (or your friends) is starting to become far from God with martial arts of horoscope reading or is already further from Him with palm reading, seances (trying to contact the dead - FORBIDDEN to us) etc then there is a solution.
you need to recognise its wrong, repent, first to God, now, and then to your spiritual father, when he's available, and make an effort to spend extra time in church and reading the Bible and praying in order to renew your relationship with God.
'He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world' so 'do not let your hearts be troubled, trust in God, trust also in me' (John 14:1)
lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, through Jesus Christ our Lord, for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory for ever and ever, amen.
praying in my head.. I don't know why.. I don't like to do it.
I've wondered about this, because there was an American man, whose name I can't remember, who could read the future very accuratly, and I don't mean stuff like you'll meet someone special, or you'll be happy, no things like: on this day in 1929, Wall Street will crash! years before!
He always had to go into trance and so when he said those predictions, he didn't know what he was saying, someone had to write it down so that he himself could read it afterwards... During his trance any questions asked by others, were answered...
But soon, people started misusing his gift and asking him about lottery numbers and so forth, and when he realized that, he stopped doing it, because he felt it wasn't used for good anymore.. If I remember well, he was a christian and said he had this from God..
I wouldn't deny it since, he himself didn't know what he predicted when in trance, which could be God's way of preserving him from using it for his own advantage, or from getting arrogant for this gift.. also the fact that he stopped doing it when he noticed people started misusing it, although it could have been a flourishing business..
But on the other hand, I think we should always ask ourselves, if God gives a gift to someone, He doesn't just give it like that keda, it always has a meaning, a purpose...
Anyways, may the Lord preserve and protect us
God bless you
mikeforJesus, what i was saying is that meditation without Jesus is dangerous. when we pray in our heads to God (not talking out loud), we are meditating on him and so this is very good. so i think spoken prayers are good and silent prayers are also good. the important thing is to pray.
ephesians 6:18 says 'pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests'
& romans 8:26 says ' the Spirit helps us in our weakness. we do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit helps us in our weakness. we do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.'
may God lead us.
It is just self defense and fun. Thats all
=]
+mahraeel+
well lets go to the time of the Romans, the soldiers and the army leaders use to have matches... sword matches, they use to have such shows in front of the king... and the people, to show how good of fighters they were, and if we remember St. George, St. Mina.... St...etc.. were partakers of such entertainments! so it is not wrong, because you are not "fighting" out of hate! you are fighting out of sportsmanship... and through such sports, your body is being healthy, and stronger, in that way you can protect yourself, your family, and whoever...
akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
i'm not sure the Christians who competed in the 'games' under the roman empire went there willingly...
soldiers had to fight, they were trained to do so, it was their job
interestingly, in eritrea, Christians are currently being punished severely for not fighting because they believe the wars their government is waging against ethiopia and the other neighbours are unjust.
but that is another topic. if anyone is interested, i can get more information and start a new topic. we need to pray for all the Christians in eritrea, they are suffering a lot.
i see. but i think fighting to defend your tribe or your country is different.
interestingly, in eritrea, Christians are currently being punished severely for not fighting because they believe the wars their government is waging against ethiopia and the other neighbours are unjust.
but that is another topic. if anyone is interested, i can get more information and start a new topic. we need to pray for all the Christians in eritrea, they are suffering a lot.
If it's not too much trouble, I think this would be an interesting topic as I have wondered a lot about this... We are taught to respect authority, but where does that stop. And if duty calls us, as citizens to fight, what to do?
Also if anyone knows the story of St Maurice, it would be relevant too..(I don't know all the details, but I think (not sure though) he said something like: I'm a soldier under authority of the emperor, but this (killing christians) I will not do, punish me as you see fit..
God bless you
God bless
With respect, I think your are highly exaggerating the effects of "Martial Arts." In fact, it is already a inaccurate generalization to say that all martial arts are based upon religious notions, and further to suggest that meditation in these arts is a type of connection with evil spirits. I have long been practicing many forms of martial arts, and although there is an influence from ancient religions, it is an influence that is long abandoned in recent practice and instruction. Also, even were this type of meditation to occur, it does not involve the vague notions of connection with inner strength or the strength of the cosmos as you imply. This is simply not the case in any respectable dojo.
You attempt to somehow connect martial arts with horoscopes and the connection is invalid at best. There is simply no logical connection with these two concepts. Martial arts promote self-respect, discipline, and self-reliance. They give their practitioners confidence and lead to better physical and mental health. "Self-Defense" is only different from "Martial Arts" in the sense that martial arts is a more coherent set of principles regarding physical confrontations and mental preparedness for these confrontations. This is the context in which meditation comes in. It is used to calm the student before the lesson, and nothing else. The fact that it was once ethno-religiously tinged does not apply in modern practices of martial arts.
Sorry if i sound harsh, I simply feel your response is an exaggeration that could give others the wrong impression.
Forgive me,
Taio
It might the wrong way to say this: anything supernatural that's not christian is from the devil
but rather
anything that's supernatural that's not of the devil is not bad
I'm just wondering, plz comment
God bless
That verse is taken out of context, Christ was speaking about people casting out demons in His name and the desciples told them to stop because they weren't of the desciples Christ hand picked. So He said do not forbid them because if they aren't against us they are for us. Thats all, lets not read into things that are simply taken out of context for the purpose of discussion.
Thanks, deacon, but I was already aware of the context of the verse and was just wondering if it could also be applied in other cases, but I see according to you it can't, thank for the comment...
God bless you
[quote author=ΙΙδιακον link=topic=7498.msg99018#msg99018 date=1231172931]
That verse is taken out of context, Christ was speaking about people casting out demons in His name and the desciples told them to stop because they weren't of the desciples Christ hand picked. So He said do not forbid them because if they aren't against us they are for us. Thats all, lets not read into things that are simply taken out of context for the purpose of discussion.
Thanks, deacon, but I was already aware of the context of the verse and was just wondering if it could also be applied in other cases, but I see according to you it can't, thank for the comment...
God bless you
Don't go by what i say, i'm not an authority, that was just my opinion
the subect is pretty clear, what do you guys think about martial arts? Is it wrong to practice? Ofcourse it wrong to hurt people, but I heard that even learning self defense is wrong, and i dont understand why. What do you guys think? Is it wrong for a Christians to practice martial arts as long as his intentions ar #1 never to start fights, #2 make sure that if he is pushed into a situation where he has no choice but to defend himself, he does only that, without harming the other person as best as he can
Thanks for this post Meena!
I was wondering about this too! I went to a Taijiquan seminar the other day and I was just wondering if it was alright. I had studied this art before I was baptized. Still, our instructor always told us we were learning Taiji to avoid fighting! His concept was that when u r physically healthy and mentally sound your spirit will be at peace and u will know how to avoid fighting.
I know our battle "is not against flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high and low places".
I think about St. Anthony, the father of Monasticism and how he fought invisible foes......well invisible to others; but I'm sure very visible to him. Did St. Anthony have a fighting style? Did anyone who was watching his antics study his moves? Or maybe they were just random?!? Maybe when we do our martial arts forms we are fighting invisible foes like St. Anthony!
using the 'armour' of God, i.e. those things that our life needs to be full of when we are close to God, like truth, righteousness, salvation (being grateful and realising that we are saved by faith through God's grace and then also living for God), faith, the word of God (read it, memorize it, live it) and the readiness to spread the gospel wherever we are called.
i've seen an excellent video of his life (i think made in australia and with english subtitles) that showed how he prayed and meditated on God even when feeling discouraged or lonely or hungry or sick or weak. also he was very humble.
in fact it is clear from this and other information we have about him that his life was very similar to the holy pattern of life we see explained in all of the book of ephesians.
it would be easy if we could say a few prayers, wear a cross and go to church occasionally and then be automatically protected from all evil without any effort on our part, but God in fact blesses our efforts to not say that mean word, to care for our neighbours and to remember that we are nothing without Him.
'take courage, for you have not yet resisted sin to the point of shedding blood' the book of hebrews tells us that we do have to resist temptation, but that we will never be under the stress Jesus was under when he chose to make the ultimate, most painful sacrifice ever known.
so have peace, resisting the devil its not that hard, but neither is it something we can ignore.
If martial art practiced for the sake of sportsmanship there are many peaceful sports which do not have a confronting connotation. One can have a health body and a sound mind by practicing sports such as swimming, basketball and running. Personally I love running because it gives me the ability to flee from a scene which might lead to physical or vocal fights as fast as I can when I am spiritually week to accept a slap on my cheek without retaliating. I wonder why Christ taught as “But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also.” Matthew 5:39. Why didn’t he say block a blow that is to slap you as martial art taught us. We should not be training our body and mind to defend ourselves but to rely on the Lord and believe his word “Vengeance is mine” Deuteronomy 32:35.
The idea of defending oneself is found in many religions. This is what makes Christianity unique and beautiful. The only way a Christian is supposed to defend and attack is as written in Proverbs 25:21, 22 “If your enemies are hungry, give them food to eat. If they are thirsty, give them water to drink. You will heap burning coals of shame on their heads, and the Lord will reward you”
Here are some verses from the Quran Surah 8:38-39 which will underscore the uniqueness of Christianity in this matter.
8:38 Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).
8:39 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
After all is said we should obey the authority of our churches cannon. Here is one which is originally meant for clergy but can also be applied to lay men:
If any Clergyman strikes anyone in a fight, and kills by a single blow, let him be deposed from office for his insolence. But if he be a layman, let him be excommunicated.
(c. XCI of the 6th; cc. XXI, XXII, XXIII of Ancyra; Athanasius in his Epistles; cc. II, VIII, XI, XIII, XXXIII, XLIII, LII, LIV, LVI, LVII; c. V of Nyssa.).
Interpretation.
In their c. XXVII the divine Apostles depose clergymen who either strike believers for having sinned or unbelievers for having wronged someone, as we explained in connection with the interpretation of that Canon. But in the present Canon they ordain that if any clergyman during a fight, i.e., in a quarrel, should strike anyone even a single heavy blow and from this alone the man should die, such clergyman shall be deposed from office, if not because he struck a heavy blow, if not because he killed the man without wanting to do so, but because he was overcome by anger and proved insolent and pert in lifting his arm and striking a blow, a thing which is forbidden to clergymen (I omit saying for the great and deadly sin of the murder he committed); but if it be a layman that committed the murder, he shall be excommunicated even from the mysteries as well as from the congregation and church of the faithful.
Concord.
Note that according to c. VIII of St. Basil the Great some murders are willful, and other murders are something between involuntary and willful, or rather to say they approximate more or less closely to willful and intentional murders. Thus an involuntary murder is one which occurs when anyone throwing a stone at a tree or at a dog happens to hit a human being with it and kills the latter. A willful murder, on the other hand, is one in which someone takes a knife or a gun in order to kill, after the manner of those who are robbers and those who go to war. Thus, according to c. V of Nyssa a willful murder is that which takes place with preparation and deliberation or meditation. But akin to willful murders is that in which while fighting with another a man hits him with a stick or club or unmerci¬fully with his fist, in a spot that is dangerous and fatal. The Bishop of Nyssa in his above-mentioned Canon judges such a slaying to be willful murder, a slaying, that is to say, such as is the one referred to above in the present Apostolical Canon, which is willful according to Canon of Nyssa, and nearly willful, according to Basil, because the murderer used such an instrument in order to hit another person, and because he struck the man unmercifully in a deadly spot, when he himself was utterly over¬come by anger. On the whole, to state the case briefly, a murder, according to the Nomicon of Photius, Title IX, ch. 26, must be considered with due regard to the disposition and intention of the slayer, that is to say, as to whether he had the intention and purpose to kill a person, or not. The disposition again must be considered with due regard to the instrument or weapon he used in the slaying. For this reason many times when someone strikes another but does not kill him he is punished as a murderer on account of the intention he had to kill. On the contrary a man is not punished as a murderer simply because he killed another man if he intended only to hit the man but not to kill him. So that these two considerations suffice to determine the difference between willful murder and involuntary homicide with due regard to the disposition and impetu¬osity of the slayer and with due regard to the instrument or weapon he used.
Among willful murders are those committed by women who give herbs to pregnant women in order to kill the embryos; and likewise those who accept such herbs as is decreed by the Sixth Council in its c. XCI and by the Council of Ancyra in its c. XXI and by St. Basil according to his cc. II and VIII. But more charitably they are condemned and sentenced not for life but for a term of ten years by both this same c. XXI of the Council of Ancyra and c. II of St. Basil. Moreover those women who give men drugs and herbs in order to entice them into the clutches of their Satanic love which things (often called love potions in English) make those taking them dizzy and not infrequently cause their death as is mentioned by Basil the Great in his aforesaid c. VIII are likewise guilty of murder. Even a woman that neglects her child and lets it die is considered a murderess, according to cc. XXXIII and L1I of the same Basil. The Faster (John) in his c. XXVI says that women that throw down their infants at the doors of churches are considered murderesses. Armenopoulos (in his Epitome of the Canons) adds that this very same law has been decreed by a conciliar decision or that it has been made by a synodical decree. In his c. XXIII the same Faster says that any mother that falls asleep on top of her infant and smothers it to death is considered a murderess it this occurred as a result of her negligence and carelessness. In c. XLII1 he says that whoever has given his brother a deadly wound (or deadly blow) is a murderer whether he was the one who started the matter by striking the first blow, or it was his brother who did so.
As for involuntary murder (or homicide), the Council of Ancyra according to its c. XXIII fixes the penalty at seven years or five years, while c. LVII of St. Basil fixes it at eleven years. Also in his c. XI he says that eleven years are enough to serve as punishment for the involuntary murder which one has committed if he lives long enough to serve it out. Canon V of Nyssa fixes it at nine years. Canon XX of the Faster fixes it at three years. But as for willful murder, the Council of Ancyra separates the murderer from the Mysteries for the rest of his life, according to its c. XXII, while St. Basil, in his c. LVI sentences him to a term of twenty years; and the Bishop of Nyssa to a term of twenty-seven years, in his c. V; finally, the Faster, in his c. XX, fixes the term at five years. As for any clergymen that strike and kill robbers who have attacked them, they are to be deposed from office, according to Basil’s c. LV. Even the Bishop of Nyssa says, in his c. V, that though one murder a man involuntarily, he is nevertheless to be deprived of the grace of holy orders. And generally speaking from a universal point of view it may be said that all clergymen without exception that kill anyone, whether it be intentionally or unintentionally, and whether it be that they have done so with their own hands or have had others do the actual killing, are ipso facto deposed, according to the determination made by Constantine the Patriarch of Chliarinus. Those men, on the other hand, who go to war and kill the enemies for piety’s sake (i.e., in the cause of religion) to assure the sobriety and common peace of their brethren, deserve to be praised, according to Athanasius, in his letter to Ammoun; whereas, according to Basil, they must abstain from the mysteries for three years only on the ground that their hands are not free from the stain of blood, according to his c. XIII. For the solution of this apparent contradiction, see the footnote to the same c. XIII of Basil.
In Christ
Theophilus
-christians are to be known as peaceful, kind, loving, etc... Personally I do a sport that involves hurting some one (wrestling) and it might be on the homosexual side to others with a mind oblivious to many things, but if you do the sport just to hurt people and not to learn, be healthy, etc...then its not good yes ;)
-thats my opinion please no one get offended
especialy karate......
it teaches you patientce and control
its not just about punching some one and kicking someone...
I am sure if you used the dicipline, patience and control your thoughts and actions, you would gain alot from this world.....
you know Christ is love and he is everything of this world....
but we are all one on this earth some cultures dont know about christ all they know is there martial arts their dicipline patience and control, and are probably living perfect human lives......
I magine if christians on this earth who new such dicipline and patience and control and used these inner powers to get closer to God.... we need to keep our minds clean about every situation.... there is good and bad in every situation
I know of a certain monk from australia who used to learn martial arts>>>
I dont beleive it is wrong if all intentions are good
I don't care really, I'll defend my self or friends if the need rises.
Some would say this is wrong, my reply - do you follow all the bible
Didn't think so.
8)
He was strong physically, but never fought back ever since he became a monk.
I don't care really, I'll defend my self or friends if the need rises.
Some would say this is wrong, my reply - do you follow all the bible
Didn't think so.
epshiri, i did not like your attitude one bit
Well religiously speaking, self defence is wrong, but i'm not going to list my findings to keep this short.
I don't care really, I'll defend my self or friends if the need rises.
Some would say this is wrong, my reply - do you follow all the bible
Didn't think so.
8)
nice sunglasses........so if you "don't follow the BIBLE," as we can understand from your response, then what in the world are you doing on a CHRISTIAN FORUM that believes in the Bible.
Don't get me wrong, i'll respect anyone who is not a Christian and is willing respectively learn about all of what we are talking here.
Your response clearly shows no faith in god.
If you did have faith then if you and your freinds were beaten up, then god would surely take care of you.
If you follow the bible completely, then sure you wouldnt be put into such situations where you would be beaten up.
God is with you in all Situations, But you shall never lose faith in god.
God bless you , those who criticised his comment, instead of criticising next time, please respond with a suggestion to change this attitude.
God Bless Us All.
Those who control their thoughts, tongue and heart towards GOD ,are very strong. I like to say that alot.
Let's all beat up on epshiri . . .
Wait . . . I'm not sure what else to say . . .
We already covered that he has no faith, and that he doesn't belong on this forum, he doesn't believe in God, and doesn't follow the Bible at all.
ummm . . .
epshiri, you smell funny!
YAY!
Let's all beat up on epshiri . . .
Wait . . . I'm not sure what else to say . . .
We already covered that he has no faith, and that he doesn't belong on this forum, he doesn't believe in God, and doesn't follow the Bible at all.
ummm . . .
epshiri, you smell funny!
hmmmm.....for as much as we might want to, it would be against what we are saying here..... ;)
If you follow the bible completely, then sure you wouldnt be put into such situations where you would be beaten up.
i don't quite agree with this statement. in fact, i think the opposite is true. i think the more you follow the Bible, the more tribulations you'll face. they might not necessarily be getting beaten up, but it is a possibility. Look at the martyrs and how much persecution they faced. Consider these verses:
Matthew 5:11-12
11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Luke 6:22-23
22 Blessed are you when men hate you,
And when they exclude you,
And revile you, and cast out your name as evil,
For the Son of Man’s sake.
23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy!
For indeed your reward is great in heaven,
For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.
Romans 5:3-5
3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
and KIMO MAXIMUS, thanks for this advice below
[quote author=KIMO MAXIMUS link=topic=7498.msg103137#msg103137 date=1242395577]
those who criticised his comment, instead of criticising next time, please respond with a suggestion to change this attitude.