Can somebody tell me how to tell Protestants if they ask which they have, that intercessions are not wrong and it says it in the Bible. Thanks in advance,
I guess you mean asking for the intercessions of the saints?
I have always taken the view that if a person when alive on earth was filled with love and prayers for people, I mean such as a protestant pastor for instance, then it would be very odd that when he passed over into the presence of God he should suddenly lose all interest in those for whom he had prayed so earnestly before.
If he is closer to God, if he is free from earthly passions, then we should expect that he would be even more filled with love and care for those left behind.
Therefore it would be unreasonable to consider that one who is closer to God than we yet are should actually ignore the command of God - pray for one another.
Likewise, if we often find it hard to know what to pray, because we are overcome by our weakness, and yet pray as we can, guided by the Holy Spirit who prays in us. How much more will one who is entirely consumed by the presence of the Holy Spirit in the presence of God know how to pray.
We must beware limiting the grace of God to our own understanding. There are many who will say, 'I can't see how a dead person can know that I am asking for their prayers!' but God is not limited by our ability to comprehend His ways. It is enough to know that He commands us to pray for one another, and that those who are found in Christ after their repose are alive not dead, and they live to serve God and their brethren who are left behind.
It is also the case that from the very earliest times we have records of the Church seeking the intercession of those who have been martyred. Origen, writing at the beginning of the 3rd century, says...
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
A papyrus from the same period says..
"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed."
It would seem to me that this has been the universal practice of the Church from the beginning. A Protestant must answer the question why someone who has been a devout Christian in their earthly life would suddenly lose all interest in the well being of those left behind. It doesn't make sense. If a pastor moved to another country and just gave up praying for his flock we would consider him a poor Christian indeed. Yet this is what the Protestant idea would have us say. As far as I am concerned those who are closest to Christ pray most and intercede most and are aware of the needs of those around them most - in a spiritual manner by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - and therefore those who are alive in Christ though dead in the body are most able and best placed to intercede for all those who call out for their heavenly intercessions.
How does God work it all out? That is not for me to pry into. But I believe it is so.
Many is the time my bishop has rung me up and I have known in my spirit that it is him ringing even before I pick the phone up. I don't know how that works but I know that the world is not organised simply according to my understanding. I am sure that we are connected in ways that science cannot know. Especially in regards to those who have passed over into life.
I think that this occurs when a person slowly ceases to approach Christ in prayer, and begins to look only to miracles from one or two saints, and becomes rather obsessed with them. If a person is rooted in the Agpeya and in the worship of the Church then it is not likely that they will become unbalanced in such a way. In the Agpeya, for instance, we seek the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary and then immediately we turn to Christ.. as an example ..
Hail to the Holy Virgin, who bore for us the true Light, Christ our God. Ask the Lord on our behalf, that He may have mercy on our souls, and forgive us our sins.
We seek intercessions, but they are always Christocentric.
I would show a Protestant the Agpeya and show how many psalms we read, several other passages from the Scripture, the Lord's Prayer several times, and when we do seek the intercession of the saints it is in the context of turning WITH the saints towards Christ, not away from Him.
true, because I know copts who say: I'll pray to the Virgin Mary (this may give people from other religions/denominations the wrong impression) maybe because they relate to her more, or to any other saint for that matter, since they were human just like them
or when something happens: first thing they say is: O Virgin, help! or something 'ya baba Kyrillos' I don't know whether this is 'wrong' Because i would expect the initial call for help to be to God , and not to any saint, but that's just me
but it shouldn't be that we focus on the saints instead of God, it should be that the saints point our eyes toward Him
Comments
I have always taken the view that if a person when alive on earth was filled with love and prayers for people, I mean such as a protestant pastor for instance, then it would be very odd that when he passed over into the presence of God he should suddenly lose all interest in those for whom he had prayed so earnestly before.
If he is closer to God, if he is free from earthly passions, then we should expect that he would be even more filled with love and care for those left behind.
Therefore it would be unreasonable to consider that one who is closer to God than we yet are should actually ignore the command of God - pray for one another.
Likewise, if we often find it hard to know what to pray, because we are overcome by our weakness, and yet pray as we can, guided by the Holy Spirit who prays in us. How much more will one who is entirely consumed by the presence of the Holy Spirit in the presence of God know how to pray.
We must beware limiting the grace of God to our own understanding. There are many who will say, 'I can't see how a dead person can know that I am asking for their prayers!' but God is not limited by our ability to comprehend His ways. It is enough to know that He commands us to pray for one another, and that those who are found in Christ after their repose are alive not dead, and they live to serve God and their brethren who are left behind.
It is also the case that from the very earliest times we have records of the Church seeking the intercession of those who have been martyred. Origen, writing at the beginning of the 3rd century, says...
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
A papyrus from the same period says..
"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed."
It would seem to me that this has been the universal practice of the Church from the beginning. A Protestant must answer the question why someone who has been a devout Christian in their earthly life would suddenly lose all interest in the well being of those left behind. It doesn't make sense. If a pastor moved to another country and just gave up praying for his flock we would consider him a poor Christian indeed. Yet this is what the Protestant idea would have us say. As far as I am concerned those who are closest to Christ pray most and intercede most and are aware of the needs of those around them most - in a spiritual manner by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - and therefore those who are alive in Christ though dead in the body are most able and best placed to intercede for all those who call out for their heavenly intercessions.
How does God work it all out? That is not for me to pry into. But I believe it is so.
Many is the time my bishop has rung me up and I have known in my spirit that it is him ringing even before I pick the phone up. I don't know how that works but I know that the world is not organised simply according to my understanding. I am sure that we are connected in ways that science cannot know. Especially in regards to those who have passed over into life.
In Christ
Father Peter
Where is the line drawn between Intersession and hagiolatry?
Hail to the Holy Virgin, who bore for us the true Light, Christ our God. Ask the Lord on our behalf, that He may have mercy on our souls, and forgive us our sins.
We seek intercessions, but they are always Christocentric.
I would show a Protestant the Agpeya and show how many psalms we read, several other passages from the Scripture, the Lord's Prayer several times, and when we do seek the intercession of the saints it is in the context of turning WITH the saints towards Christ, not away from Him.
In Christ
Father Peter
maybe because they relate to her more, or to any other saint for that matter, since they were human just like them
or when something happens: first thing they say is: O Virgin, help! or something 'ya baba Kyrillos'
I don't know whether this is 'wrong'
Because i would expect the initial call for help to be to God , and not to any saint, but that's just me
but it shouldn't be that we focus on the saints instead of God, it should be that the saints point our eyes toward Him