Can someone explain to me why Christ came to die for us?
Why exactly was His death necessary for us to receive salvation? Why couldnt we keep on sacrificing animals?
What is the importance of Baptism and Holy Communion in the plan of Salvation? Why do we need to have faith in order to be saved?
Comments
As for baptism and Holy Communion these sacraments were instituted by the Lord Himself, Baptism to wash away our corruption and Holy communion to unite us with the Lord Himself! I think the faith question answers itself, i don't see how you can be saved without having the faith in being saved in and of itself?
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
Very good questions Qt, from what I've learned to answer your first question is that because these animals where only meant for temporary remission of sins and a prototype for Christ Himself. Because the punishment of sin was death, death was required, so the animals would die on our behalf. However, these animals could not atone for all the sins of the world since they themselves are finite creatures as are we. Christ was Perfect God and Perfect Human. No fault was found in Him. So He was the only One that could carry all of our sins, from the ones that were committed to the ones that will be committed until the end of time. Someone with infinite characteristics was the only one that could save the entire human race. If He was mearly a man, He Himself would have needed salvation and could not atone for anyone else's sins let alone His own weakness!
As for baptism and Holy Communion these sacraments were instituted by the Lord Himself, Baptism to wash away our corruption and Holy communion to unite us with the Lord Himself! I think the faith question answers itself, i don't see how you can be saved without having the faith in being saved in and of itself?
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
But why do we need baptism? Why on earth couldnt it be without baptism? What exactly is the importance of baptism? Khallas.. Christ died for us, so why now do we need to get baptised?
If animal sacrifices were temporary, then why were they ever instituted? Why even were they symbols? What for?
If they were temporary, then surely we could live without that.
But if death was required, why the Cross? Why didnt Christ just die naturally? Why did He need to go through the pain of death on the cross??? He could have died of old age.
These are questions that only God can answer, He instituted them Himself, If He instituted them, surely they are of great importance. If you remember in Genesis, God "covered" Adam and Eve with animal skin, How did He get that animal skin? He killed one and took its skin and "covered" their nakedness which was the first sacrifice on behalf to remit their sins. But again, since God required death, it was the animals instead of us, and since they are still finite they cannot atone for all sins. I'm not a theologian so I'm sure Father Peter can answer you better than I can
So you don't know why?
Anyway, why did the Father require death from His Son? Why did the Father insist on the cross as the form of death? What was the reason behind that?
How does Christ's death help us out exactly???
However, if you are looking for a quicker/briefer answer:
Animal sacrifices were instituted to give us, the human beings, an idea that we were sinful. The result of this sin is death. Due to his infinite mercy, God did not demand that all of us die. Rather, he decided to come down and die instead of us "in the fullness of time." The Logos knew that He had to be crucified even before the creation of Adam and Eve, because of His foreknowledge of their sin. Thus, the animal sacrifices were instituted to prepare humankind to accept the true and ultimate sacrifice, the Incarnate Logos. If you read the five books of Moses (mostly Leviticus) you will see that all of the practices of the sacrifices point to our Lord one way or another.
Christ did not die "naturally" because there was a certain curse He had to carry. Deuteronomy 21:22-23 reads, "If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse." I assume that is self explanatory.
Christ's death "helps" us out because it atones for all of our sins, if we are faithful. Instead of demanding our death, which would be the normal result, He came and died instead of us. When we are baptized, we metaphorically die and rise again with Christ, which is how we share in this redemption. This death and resurrection with Christ is necessary.
Once again, if you would like an in- depth explanation of the essence of this topic, St. Athanasius is the ultimate expert.
Its been ages since anyone has seen you.
I hope you are well.
.....
when we are born, thanks to Adam we carry the sin that he committed
at first adam and eve were naked.. he did not know he was naked....
but when he ate the apple he felt guilty and god revealed himself to adam
..... Adam then realized that God can see him
so from shame he covered himself..... and the sin made him realize he was naked
before we are babtized we carry that sin so to be pure from sin abouna
takes our cloths off to be naked
and dips our body in the holy water three times that we die and begin a new life with christ
.......
our babtizm..... is were the holy spirt enters our soul
do you know if Abouna left you in the water of the mamoudeya you will not Drown because the holy spirit is present
and the holy spirit gives life .... it dosnet take it.....
Also when you are baptized you are stamped
with the seal of the lord
...
in the old testemant the stamp was circumsition....
and with crhristians our stamp is baptizm
when we enter our path of death
the angels will know us from our seals or our stamps
was to rescue the righteous so to speak who were in hades
before christ everyone that died went straight to hades but when christ died he opened up the heavens and all those deserving to go there were taken from hades and now we wait for the judgment day where we go to paradise
i hope that makes sense
I believe the best way to get your questions answered is to read St. Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Word.
However, if you are looking for a quicker/briefer answer:
Animal sacrifices were instituted to give us, the human beings, an idea that we were sinful. The result of this sin is death. Due to his infinite mercy, God did not demand that all of us die. Rather, he decided to come down and die instead of us "in the fullness of time." The Logos knew that He had to be crucified even before the creation of Adam and Eve, because of His foreknowledge of their sin. Thus, the animal sacrifices were instituted to prepare humankind to accept the true and ultimate sacrifice, the Incarnate Logos. If you read the five books of Moses (mostly Leviticus) you will see that all of the practices of the sacrifices point to our Lord one way or another.
Christ did not die "naturally" because there was a certain curse He had to carry. Deuteronomy 21:22-23 reads, "If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse." I assume that is self explanatory.
Christ's death "helps" us out because it atones for all of our sins, if we are faithful. Instead of demanding our death, which would be the normal result, He came and died instead of us. When we are baptized, we metaphorically die and rise again with Christ, which is how we share in this redemption. This death and resurrection with Christ is necessary.
Once again, if you would like an in- depth explanation of the essence of this topic, St. Athanasius is the ultimate expert.
St. Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Word., where can i find the whole book in english?!
one of the reasons i learnt today about why christ died for us
was to rescue the righteous so to speak who were in hades
before christ everyone that died went straight to hades but when christ died he opened up the heavens and all those deserving to go there were taken from hades and now we wait for the judgment day where we go to paradise
i hope that makes sense
Yes, OK.. but HOW does His death rescue those from Hades?
Why did He have to die to rescue them from hades? Surely He could have just emersed His Mighty hand and grabbed them out of there??
We have sinned and we are dead in our sins. This is just. Adam was warned and he chose to disobey. He preferred to gratify himself rather than to enjoy the glory of God.
God will not exercise His mercy apart from His righteousness, nor will He exercise His righteous judgement without being merciful.
As has been said, the Word of God Himself died with us and for us, and by entering into the death which was our just desert He freed us from its power. Death by death is trampled down.
Could there have been another way? Only God knows. This is how He chose to show His love for us and preserve the glory of His righteousness. The Fathers seem agreed that a way was required which allowed God to be both merciful and just, and also a way which allowed man, the cause of death, as God become man to restore man to life.
Father Peter
I was always taught that to really see this, we would make a list of the ONE who have certain characteristics to come and save man. those all are only possible with the Son, the second Hypostasis of the Trinity.
As has been said, the Word of God Himself died with us and for us, and by entering into the death which was our just desert He freed us from its power. Death by death is trampled down.
Hi.
This is exactly where I wanted to arrive at: How does the Divine nature, with the Human Nature (united) free us from the power of death? How?
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7812.msg101622#msg101622 date=1239114346]
As has been said, the Word of God Himself died with us and for us, and by entering into the death which was our just desert He freed us from its power. Death by death is trampled down.
Hi.
This is exactly where I wanted to arrive at: How does the Divine nature, with the Human Nature (united) free us from the power of death? How?
well it's one of the things that the Messiah needs to be. To be human, because a human sinned a humans have to be punished. and then He also have to be a person who have the power to overcome the death that was the consequence of His sins (not that HE sinned, but He carried our sin).
But in general we can say that as the New Testament writers teach, there are several aspects:
i. The punishment due for our sins has been borne by another, by the Word, and so we are not punished
ii. The death we deserved has been endured by one who is life.
iii. When we are united with Christ, in baptism and by the spiritual life, we die with him, and since we die in Christ we are no longer a living person due to be punished
iv. When we rise to life in Christ, partially at first, in baptism, then we are a new person and the death we were due belongs to the old person we no longer are.
v. Christ has endured the state of death we were plunged into by Adam, he has endured the punishment due to our sin, and he has renewed human nature by his resurrection.
vi. We experience this freedom from death because we are united to Christ, this is why life is living for and in God. Christ is our life. We are hid in Christ. We do not exist as rebellious sinner living in darkness. We now belong to the family of Christ.
vii. Christ does it all on our behalf. We just have to experience it for ourselves by faith and by being united to Christ. He becomes the Second Adam, a second start for humanity. In him we have life, on our own we are still lost in darkness.
How does it actually happen? I don't know. But the things I have written above seem to me to be described in the Scriptures.
Father Peter
I agree with Christ4Life, you should take a look at St. Athanasius’ book “On the Incarnation.” It answers all the questions you’ve asked, and it’s available online at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/incarnation/formats/On_the_Incarnation.pdf. Since the human nature had fallen, that meant it had to be restored. He was the only one that could restore it… (Taken from ‘On the Incarnation’, chapter two: ‘The Divine Dilemma,’ paragraph 9)
Hope that helped.
Please pray for me,
Mansour89
Here you go mina http://www.coepa.org/tNG/cnt_download.php?id=261&dname=Download2tNG/cnt_download.php?id=261&dname=Download2
Sorry for bothering you jydeacon, but can you fix that link, I think its broken. Thanks!
And QT_PA_2T, to answer your question about why God couldnt just die from old age, I just wanted to add that God came as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.. and dying from old age isn't sacrificing his life for us.
Why not just live and let live?
But why was a sacrifice needed?
Why not just live and let live?
hmmmm, what do you mean by "live and let live"?? ya3ny detail the question a little....
Christ could not (as far as we dare say what God could and could not do) die simply from old age. That is just part of being human. He needed to die undeserved death as a punishment, and so he was hung on the cross between two thieves and died an accursed death - for cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree.
It is the aspect of an undeserved death which is important. Of suffering under the curse without personal sin.
Humanity is mortal by nature, that is not real death. Real death is separation from real life - which is the Word.
Father Peter
The one who answers in the LEAST amount of words wins.
My understanding is that Christ could not simply die of old age because aging is a sign of corruption. Again, there are a few reasons that St. Athanasius states in his book of why Christ had to be crucified. (‘On the Incarnation,’ Chapter 4: ‘The Death of Christ,’ paragraph 21)
He died at the hands of men because this action showed no limitation to the Word. St. Athanasius uses an analogy with a wrestler... (‘On the Incarnation,’ Chapter 4: ‘The Death of Christ,’ paragraph 24)
Honestly, it's hard not to get wordy, but I think St. Athanasius really describes it best. Sorry for having a long answer haha... definitely lost that contest.
Pray for me,
Mansour89
You really do need to take the time to read St Athanasius. I don't mean that in a negative way, but you really will benefit in lots of ways by reading St Athanasius carefully.
If the question is important then it demands some effort to receive an answer.
Take an evening and read the book then let us know what other questions you have about the subject.
Father Peter
Dear QT,
You really do need to take the time to read St Athanasius. I don't mean that in a negative way, but you really will benefit in lots of ways by reading St Athanasius carefully.
If the question is important then it demands some effort to receive an answer.
Take an evening and read the book then let us know what other questions you have about the subject.
Father Peter
Fr. Peter,
I think it would be great if you could summarise St Athanasious' writings in a short paragraph? No?
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7812.msg101647#msg101647 date=1239136916]
Dear QT,
You really do need to take the time to read St Athanasius. I don't mean that in a negative way, but you really will benefit in lots of ways by reading St Athanasius carefully.
If the question is important then it demands some effort to receive an answer.
Take an evening and read the book then let us know what other questions you have about the subject.
Father Peter
Fr. Peter,
I think it would be great if you could summarise St Athanasious' writings in a short paragraph? No?
Honestly, if anyone could summarize St. Anthasius' writings in a short paragraph that would mean one of two things. Either that person inadequately described the saint's writings, or St. Athanasius described the topic inadequately. Certainly St. Athanasius did not, by any means whatsoever, explain the topic inadequately. That leaves no option but for you to actually read the book. Trust me, it helps in many ways more than one.
And thanks for welcoming me back, I've actually been lingering around for a while.
we all know what the problem is... don't we?
But no one here wants to admit it.
OK.. im ok with that.. but I'll just say it. The topic on atonement is still bothering me.
I need closure on this issue.
I don't want to post the video links on here, but those of you that have seen the YOUTUBE videos on "DIVINE JUSTICE" would know what I'm talking about.
Its bothering me.
Yes, I've read St Athanasios (and we read it the hard way... from Iqbal!).. its still quite confusing.I think the problem starts when one starts reading.