The Holy Mysteries

aidan

Christ is Risen!

Given that the European Orthodox Churches had a common history with The Coptic Orthodox church as some of our prayers testify, I am interested to know know something about our differences in preparation for receiving the Holy Mysteries.

In the Russian and Greek churches one reads several verses on the night before and several long prayers on the actual day. I have noticed that the Agpeya gives a short preparatory prayer.

Am I mistaken or is this the way things are ?

In Christ

mabsoota

in the coptic church we fast (food and water) for 9 hours before communion and in this time (or the evening before if all the fasting time is spent asleep) we may attend the evening service (vespers) if there is one, or pray the evening hours from the agpeya, or do other spiritual things like reading the Bible, spontaneous prayer or phoning up people we have argued with and being reconciled to them. many people listen to hymns if they travel to church by car or read the Bible on the train etc.
if i am running late for any reason, i read the 'raising of the incense service' on the train so i don't totally miss it and pray quietly in my heart to God. i probably should read the prayer before communion the night before, because otherwise i have to fit it in at the same time as singing verses from psalm 150 and watching people going up for communion. everyone in my church seems to manage doing these 3 at once, i'm not quite sure how!

one time i was helping out with the projector and was just thinking i wasn't doing a bad job keeping up with all the page changes and then noticed abouna was standing up and about to finish giving out the holy body! i got there just in time (he turned back!) and it taught me an important lession about pride! so maybe doing the communion prayer early would help all round  :)

Unknown

aidan,

Are you asking about the different practices and rites.  For example I know we use different liturgies than the other orthodox churches.  We use the Liturgies of St. Basil, St. Gregory, and St. Cyril (aka Liturgy of St. Mark ? ).  The Greek & Russian Orthodox Church uses the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  The Syrian Orthodox Church uses the Syriac Liturgy.  (I don't know who wrote it)

I think they all have the same basic parts, (i.e. Evening Incense, Morning Incense, The Offeratury, Liturgy of the Word, & Liturgy of the Eucharist) Just with minor differences in wording & style.

George

aidan

No, I was asking about individual preparation.

If what Mabsoota said is general then it seems a bit less formal (or should I say stylised) than in either the Greek or the Russian church

jydeacon

Actually aidan, There are psalms that are to be said when we wake up, on our way to church, as we walk into church and as we bow infront of the alter. (there are of course psalms said while wearing our vestments) I know for those who serve as deacons need to read/recite these psalms but i don't see how they are restricted only to the deaconate. They are as follows: Psalm 26, 46, 29, 92, 121, 5:8(7) is said when entering the altar(this one is most likely specific to the deaconate) The numbering of the psalms vary based on translation between septugaint and masoretic texts

mabsoota

jydeacon,
could you please tell us which psalms are which? like which when walking, which when bowing etc? and could you give the other numbering system in brackets so we know which system you use?
eg psalm 22 (23) is 'the lord is my shepherd'
we have our liturgy tomorrow (we rent a church so have it on saturdays) so i want to say these psalms tomorrow :)

jydeacon

Sure my mistake,
Psalm 26(27) "The Lord is my light..." to be said when you wake up,
46(47)"Oh Clap your hands...", 28(29) "Bring to the Lord...", 92(93)"The Lord reigns"(which is also said when wearing vestments), are to be said on the way to church,
121(122) "I was glad when they said to me..." is said upon entering the church and psalm
5:8(7)"But as for me..." is said when entering the alter(bowing), the last psalm is more specific to deacons but again I don't see why they can't be said by the general congregation.

God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness

mabsoota

thanks, i have book-marked my agpeya and will pray.
by the time i am 386 years old (at this rate!) i will have memorised them
;)

Unknown

jydeacon,

That's awesome, but it's interesting that I've never heard of it before.

Where did you find it?

George

jydeacon

This is what I've always been taught by the head deacons in the church, I don't have a source for it anymore, suscopts deacon site used to have the psalms listed but it seems to be down.

minatasgeel

[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7937.msg102782#msg102782 date=1241817048]
jydeacon,

That's awesome, but it's interesting that I've never heard of it before.

Where did you find it?

George


it's in books. it's not something new. it's just that many don't do it.

mabsoota

the holy body and blood were only kept hidden in the byzantine church (later the greek orthodox) and the roman catholic church from about 800 to 1500. in the ealier churches, people realised that these were for all believers and actively encouraged Christians to take communion. also later on the churches realised they had made a mistake making them too secret.
also many catholic churches, although they gave only the body to the believers (reserving the blood for the clergy) for a while, now give both the body and the blood.
it is the eastern orthodox churches which reserve the body and blood in the tabernacle (for later distribution to the sick etc), in the coptic church, we do not do this, and, if the priest wants to go to a sick person with the holy body and blood, he must do this straight after the divine mass and must remain fasting. anyone who goes with the priest to assist him (deacon etc) must also remain fasting until the sick person has taken communion, then they can all break their fast.

minatasgeel

[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=7937.msg102804#msg102804 date=1241850986]
...if the priest wants to go to a sick person with the holy body and blood, he must do this straight after the divine mass and must remain fasting. anyone who goes with the priest to assist him (deacon etc) must also remain fasting until the sick person has taken communion, then they can all break their fast.

just a small correction. the priest, who distributes the holy Mysteries or helps in doing so must NOT remain fasting becuase he must wash his own hands and drink that water. drinking water means he broke his fast. so that why someone who is fasting must go with him. not specifically a "deacon" but someone who is fasting to receive the rest of the Mysteries and the washing water of the container or even the Mysteries themselves if the sick person can't receive them.

mabsoota

oh, sorry. i read that drinking the holy water does not constitute breaking the fast. i think the priest can't join in with eating falafel sandwiches etc after the mass, because he has not quite broken the fast. is that true?
and can any fasting person go with the priest? or does it have to be a deacon?
i know my friend had holy communion when she was in intensive care in hospital 1 hour by car from the church, and i was impressed someone did all that fasting for her. i saw her the previous day, so i was not there when she took communion and probably wouldn't have interviewed the priest on his fasting practices anyway!
;)
she got well enough to leave itu anyway, alhamdulilah  :)

minatasgeel

[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=7937.msg102829#msg102829 date=1241890764]
oh, sorry. i read that drinking the holy water does not constitute breaking the fast. i think the priest can't join in with eating falafel sandwiches etc after the mass, because he has not quite broken the fast. is that true?
and can any fasting person go with the priest? or does it have to be a deacon?
i know my friend had holy communion when she was in intensive care in hospital 1 hour by car from the church, and i was impressed someone did all that fasting for her. i saw her the previous day, so i was not there when she took communion and probably wouldn't have interviewed the priest on his fasting practices anyway!
;)
she got well enough to leave itu anyway, alhamdulilah  :)


who said that. Water is WATER. what was said that the Mysteries themselves do not break the fast....not the water. the priest broke his fast and someone else have to be fasting.
also i said anyone who is fasting can go with him, not specifically a deacon....meaning someone who didn't drink water yet.

mabsoota

ok, thanks.
btw i did the psalms before mass yesterday, although not quite at the right times, it was still lovely though.
i am going to church again today (baraka kibeera)  :) so will try again, it's a really good discipline to attempt.
i said attempt coz i have not quite got the hang of it yet!

mabsoota

hey just thought i'd confess, i didn't manage to do the psalms this time. my friend and i got lost going round in circles trying to find the cathedral in south england and then when we got near it we just found this big old house and we were looking everywhere and just found loads of amazing icons and a nice dining room, but nothing resembling a cathedral, and we were cracking up laughing so much at our incompetence that i forgot the psalms! we were also a bit worried to be wandering around inside someone's house, even though the door was open, it didn't look quite right! it turned out to be the bishop's house, it happened to match the dot on the map i downloaded from the cathedral wesbite aargh!  :o

eventually we found some people to tell us how to find it, it was at the back of the old house and we were so glad to get there that i only thought of the psalms afterwards.

the service was lovely though, and so far i haven't been arrested or excommunicated  ;)
i might just do all the psalms at home, next time though!

Unknown

[quote author=minagir link=topic=7937.msg102786#msg102786 date=1241819222]
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7937.msg102782#msg102782 date=1241817048]
jydeacon,

That's awesome, but it's interesting that I've never heard of it before.

Where did you find it?

George


it's in books. it's not something new. it's just that many don't do it.


I don't suppose you could narrow that down at all . . .  (Any particular authors . . .  time periods . . .  )

Unknown

I FOUND IT!! YAY!!!

http://www.suscopts.org/deacons/deaconship/deacons_instructions.pdf

The thing about reading the psalms is from a general instruction from Anba Youssef, (Southern US Diocese) along with alot of other good stuff.

George

mabsoota

well done, good work  :)

Unknown

and . . .

http://www.saintmauricechurch.org/saintmaurice_files/Deacons/Spiritual%20Instructions%20for%20the%20Deacons.html