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Question on the Great Hoos

mmatt95mmatt95
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Hi people,

i was listening to the lessons of the Great Hoos by Muallim Gad Louis the other day. The hymn itself is about 22 minutes long, which is quite lengthy to say at least, but i was shocked to discover that there's another hymn linked to it: ali el hoos el kebeer (the Halleluja of the Great Canticle), yet another 27-minutes long hymn lol.
Can anyone explain what exactly is this Ali? Is it supposed to be the ending of the first part of the Great Hoos. Or is it the same hymn, just another recording?

Finally, if these 2 hymns are actually be said righter after eachother...is this realistic? lol
22+27 makes almost an hour of aaaaaaaaaa's and oooooooooo's :o

Does anybody go to a church where these hymns are chanted?
Is it possible to take a few words of the 1st part of the Great Hoos and chant them the long way, and continue damg (recitation wise)? This could be acceptable considering the length of the hymn and the fear of shoes being thrown at u from the congregation or abouna ;D!

When i was looking at the txt of the Great Hooses that exist, they dont all start with "Hoos Epchois khen ou hoos emveri", only the one of Kiahk, Lent and Palm Sunday if i remember well. Can you chant the other great hooses in the same long tune? Or would you only say the Great Ali?

It's all rather confusing!

Your thoughts plz!

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    well i guess can explain knowing from experience.

    We were in the Texas monastery last kiahk and we learned with abouna Isothoros there the Hoos. the whole hymn, in like 4-5 private classes keda. we were like 4-5 deacons, we were learning it to the whole week to say it on saturday.

    So the hoos itself was around 20 mins. it starts with "[coptic]Doxa ci `o :eoc `ymon[/coptic]", which is not in the text but it is said. it's read 3alatool until the "[coptic]Hwc[/coptic]" part.

    Now the alleluias at the end are also another lahn. we learned to say it exactly like the alleluias of psalm 150 (which confused me when i named that recording of m.Gad online). but after i searched, the 2 alleluias are the same like psalm 150, but than the 3rd is different.

    of course the closest we came to say this hoos again was the saturday after when we came back to our church and only say: "[coptic]Hwc `e`P[oic qen ouhwc `mberi[/coptic]"....and i wont remember it untill next kiahk when we are in the monastery to say it :-)
  • Amoussa01
    Mina,

    I dont think Hos erof is talking about the alleluia's from Hos el kabeer; I believe he is talking about Ali el kabeer, which is another hymn on its own (seperate from Hos el kabeer). I am pretty sure this hymn is to be chanted before Hos el kabeer. That said, it is extremely rare that these hymns are chanted because of their length, and as a result, not many deacons know them. I, personally, dont see anything wrong with chanting the a few minutes of it long and then going back to damg for the sake of not having shoes thrown at you. If you wish to hear a nice recording of both these hymns (other than the ones by cantor gad), you can find them in this link:

    http://www.coptichymns.net/modules.php?name=Coptic_Media&op=modload&file=index&p=Coptic Hymns/Praises and Tasbeha/Midnight Praises/Kiahk_Midnight_Praise/Mark Saad

    have fun learning!  :)

    God bless
    tony
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    haha i think I got it now.
    I was just listening to a downloadable version from coptichymns.net by Dr Sameh and the one by Fr Matias Nasr from HCOC. After the Great Hoos they continue with alleluja, which is for the first part identical to Psalm 150 of Kiahk...then it continues a few minutes with new hazaat that i never heard before.

    So that makes the great Hoos have 3 major hymns:

    -The great hoos itself (about 22 minutes)
    -The Alleluja ending (about 12 minutes or so)
    -Ali el Hoos (a huge hymn of 27 minutes)

    It's starting to get clear now. But is this Ali el Hoos a substitute for the shorter ending? When is it said? You sure it's chanted before the Great Hoos?

    Now mina, you said you were thaught to chant the psalm 150-halleluja's as an ending of the Great Hoos, that sounds like a great idea. But how do you end it? Cause in the Liturgy Psalm the last hazaat make you jump into "esmooooooooooooou efnouti".

    Another question was concerning those Great Hooses that do not have the same words...Do they have a long hymn?
    And another question just popped in my head...if the ending is like the Kiahky distribution psalm, does that make it unique for the Kiahk Great Hoos? Or can it be used to conclude the other Great Hooses?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    First, there I'd only 2hymns: the hoos and ali elhoos( which I learned from tony becuadr I always thought the whole thing is just the great hoos). The Ali elhoos is 3 alleluias 3 like psalm 150 and the third is differnt.
    I really can't remember how we said it. There is a recording online somewhere that I'll try to find. 

    With other hooses, other than kiahk, I am really not sure. There is no recording of a long version for other ones or their endings. So until than, I can't really give a set answer.
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    OK so now i have a question..Gad lewis has something up called Alel nos elil(alel of the middle of the night) when is this said??? Also is this the ale you guys are talking about? I thought the ones you are talking about is the one that is labeled wrong in the liturgy section that sounds like the psalm 150 alleluia's but has the extra hazzat in the third?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=8162.msg104546#msg104546 date=1247190269]
    OK so now i have a question..Gad lewis has something up called Alel nos elil(alel of the middle of the night) when is this said??? Also is this the ale you guys are talking about? I thought the ones you are talking about is the one that is labeled wrong in the liturgy section that sounds like the psalm 150 alleluia's but has the extra hazzat in the third?


    Al nos-el-leel is different. that is also recorded for kiahk. but it is said before ten-thenoo.
  • Amoussa01
    Actually, Ali nos el layl is the same as Ali el kabeer. They are just different names for the same hymn. You can find more of those hymns here, along with other hymns which are exclusively for kiahk praises: http://www.coptichymns.net/module-hymns-catview-pid-89.html

    God bless
    tony
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    Ali el Kabeer and Ali nos el Lail is the same, i agree.
    But this hymn is exclusive, it's something different than el Hoos el Kebeer, but they both have "Kabeer" in the name, so that makes it rather confusing.

    Mina, you sure it's said before Ten Theeno? That's an awesome start of a tasbeha lol.

    And Jydeacon...the alleluja that sounds like the psalm 150 but ends differently, is in fact the ending of the Great Hoos. I forwarded a bit in the lessons and Muallim Gad says you can end it normally with a short Alleluja, or if there's time (hmmm), u can conclude with the long one.
    He doesnt mention Ali el Kabeer at all, so that makes it more sure it's a whole different hymn.

    So, that leaves us with 2 last question

    1) Muallim Gad mentions specifically that you can say the hymn of the Great Hoos ALSO in the Resurrection. However, a quick search in the hymn library will show that the first psalm starts with "Tonk Epchois"...still a mystery. For now I'm assuming either of 2 options:

    a-you either add "Hoos Epchois" before you run into the rest of the verses
    b-you put the tune on the different words, since 99% of the hymn is hazaat and the rest is words, that shouldnt be too difficult.

    Perhaps Mr Wagdi can help us out here!

    2) Mina, still if you can find out how to conclude the last halleluja if you conclude in the 150 psalm Kiahky way, that would be great!
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    the recording of the whole tasbeha is here:
    http://www.suscopticdiocese.org/stmaryhouston/framePage.html?/stmaryhouston/audio/praises/
    (USE INTERNET EXPLORER)

    then go to "Services of 2008" and then "Midnight Praises (1)"
    i didn't hear this yet. the way we learned it from Abouna was originally taught by m. Hani who came to the USA and taught the monastery monks. that's where he got that "molakhas" way to say the alleluias because we all know the psalm 150 one.

    I am not really really sure about saying Al nos-el-leel before tentheno. but i'll check because i know it says in a book to say this, i read it once.

    Where did m.Gad mention that Matt?

  • ophadeceophadece
    Mina,
    Page not found
    [coptic]ouho `mpoujemf
    oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=8162.msg104563#msg104563 date=1247257178]
    Mina,
    Page not found
    [coptic]ouho `mpoujemf
    oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]


    sorry. right one:
    http://www.suscopticdiocese.org/stmaryhouston/audio/praises/services_main.html
    also use internet explorer
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    Ey Mina,

    the link does seem to work but once i go to 2008 the files won't download...

    Muallim Gad mentions in the first lesson that it is also to be said in 3eed el qeyama el mageed (The Glorious Resurrection feast)
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=8162.msg104566#msg104566 date=1247265347]
    Ey Mina,

    the link does seem to work but once i go to 2008 the files won't download...

    Muallim Gad mentions in the first lesson that it is also to be said in 3eed el qeyama el mageed (The Glorious Resurrection feast)


    ok. sorry for the confusion. i have it on my pc. i'll try to upload that lahn we said live some where and post it.
  • ophadeceophadece
    [coptic]]sep`hmot `ntotk Myna. ]meu`i vai `fnaswpi e;nanef[/coptic]
    Thank you Mina. I think that will be better
    [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    MEGAUPLOAD: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MAKSWTNC
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    Thanks for the great recording, it's good to know that this heritage is still being preserved in the lands of immigration
    about the Halleuja...its a perfect way to end the Great Hoos actually, it just cuts it off just before the end of the long kiahky psalm 150! Did you happen to find out more about the Great Hoos for the resurrection??
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=8162.msg104595#msg104595 date=1247524783]
    Thanks for the great recording, it's good to know that this heritage is still being preserved in the lands of immigration
    about the Halleuja...its a perfect way to end the Great Hoos actually, it just cuts it off just before the end of the long kiahky psalm 150! Did you happen to find out more about the Great Hoos for the resurrection??


    it is great.

    about the hoos for the Resurrection, i am really not sure.
  • christ_rosechrist_rose
    What i knew was that the GReat HOs has allelouias in it in the end and thats part of the hymn

    THe whole thing is like 35 minutes. and Ali el Kebeer also known as Ali Nos elil is another hymn becuz i have recordings of muallem gad as well as muallem tawfik etc and there different hymns. The hos is said b4 anything and then Ali b4 ten theno. i didnt hear the tasbeha u guys posted but from what i read u can put ali nos elil after the Hos instead of the allelouias of the great hos.

    THe Hymn is amazing tho and theres this one high part that sticks out and sounds amazing. Both GAd Lewis and Tawfik and Fr Mattias from HICS say the Hos separately and Nos el lil separately
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