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Non-Orthodox taking CO Communion

gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
edited December 1969 in Personal Issues
a buddy of mines, who is of another denomination, recently told me that a couple of years ago he partook of the Holy Communion, without being baptized.

is there any thing specific that should be done?

it was a one-time thing, incase your wondering, he never did it again.

Comments

  • ChristrulesChristrules
    you should probably speak to a priest about this, bas i know that this is something very dangerous for him
    as he was not born in the spirit as the bible says, and still has not died of his original sin, and the whole reason for all that Christ went through was to make us new and ready to partake of the tree od life (himself) and live forever in purity, since your friend has not been cleaned through the death in baptism he is now living eternally in the original sin. Therefore i suggest you speak with someone like a priest.

    Correct me if im wrong
    God Bless
  • Unknown
    Your question made me think how many times do we, as orthodox who supposedly are in the orthodox faith but at the same time not living this faith, approached and took communion? Are we any better than that guy?

    In fact, we will be condemned by God much more that guy because at least we had the knowledge of how sanctified the communion is and took it too lightly.
  • gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
    ya i didn't get a chance to take it up with a priest yet, but i mean i don't know what to expect?

    is this a grave sin for my friend, or is it just an accident, and what must be done?  hence, i came here hoping someone might give me "the heads up" lol.

    God's Lamb makes a very excellent point, however, i personally [not sure if this is the view of the Church or not] believe there is quite the difference between "readiness" for the Holy Communion and "authority to partake of it" 
  • mabsootamabsoota
    hey, i took catholic communion as a protestant (i didn't know about the rules in those days) and am still alive  ;)
    i think it's not such a big deal.
    i'm not saying our communion is not a big deal, if i thought that i wouldn't have spent so much time fasting and praying and waiting and then finally joining the coptic church.
    i believe God looks at the heart.
    if this guys was giving the finger to the church and saying 'ha, i'm going to take it anyway' then he has a problem.
    if he was trying to get close to God, and just didn't know about the rules (seriously they don't make sense to a protestant until you really start to understand more about the church) then he came to the right place  :)
    and you should teach him and encourage him to get baptised / chrismated (meyron).
    may the Spirit of truth lead him into all truth.
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    I dont think there is anything a Coptic priest can do without the individual becoming baptized and going through confession/repentance. Many priests probably wont know what to do considering this is a once in a lifetime situation for any priest. Also, even if there is something that can be done, your friend needs to be aware of the circumstance subjecting himself to whatever the priest says. From my own knowledge, I dont think that a priest will do anything unless your friend becomes baptized and repents considering this is just one of those sins that a person does unknowingly or unwillingly.

  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    Btw, I dont like the use of the terms "Coptic Communion" and "Catholic Communion." The different breads and wine on each altar become the same body and blood of Christ, no difference. The differences between communion of different churches is only in the churches that dont believe in the work of the holy spirit which transform the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ such as Protestants and Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe in communion as a symbol and not the real body and blood. However, in any Orthodox church, Eastern or Oriental and Catholics, it is one body and one blood which are the same on all the altars of the apostolic church.
  • socoolbishoysocoolbishoy

    I dont like the use of the terms "Coptic Communion" and "Catholic Communion." The different breads and wine on each altar become the same body and blood of Christ, no difference.

    I also hate these terms... but when you say that the Catholic Communion becomes the body, is not really a right thing to say, because we are not in communion... maybe it does, maybe it doesn't become the body and blood... but in the end we excommunicated each other thus their communion to us is not the body nor the blood of Christ... actually we cant say even the eastern Orthodox...


    the word "communion" comes from  "communio" which means sharing in common... so if we are not sharing in common the faith... their communion is not believed in, and to us is mere wafers/bread and wine!


    and for the case of the friend that took communion, the priest should ask every new face if they are Coptic Orthodox, because its not you're friend's fault as mabsoota said, she didn't know better, and neither did your friend, its very important that the priest does that!

    akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    Although there are major differences between us and the Catholics, nevertheless, our church recognizes them as an apostolic church. Every age  needs to act according to the present circumstances. There was a time when all Christians were either Eastern or Oriental, immediately following the Council of Chalcedon. Many Eastern Orthodox rulers executed hard persecution on the Oriental congregation with the evidence of Saint Macarious, Bishop of Edfu who was kicked quite brutally by an Eastern man that he died at a well old age. Another example is Saint Samuel the Confessor who had his eye beaten by an Eastern Soldier and later faced harsh persecution. Today, Eastern clergymen are attending  our ceremonies and likewise we are attending theirs. Back in the day, this would be unthinkable, the two groups were enemies. Point is, we need to look at our time and not what happened in the past. There are people who declare themselves Christians and refuse to recognize Jesus as God or think baptism isn't necessary etc.

    With the Catholic church however, although there are major differences, none of the differences risk a person's salvation. Do you think God will care on the day of judgement what you think of Saint Mary-perfect or a sinner? Do you think God will care if you expected to go to purgatory instead of paradise after death? We share the common belief in the Trinity, the oneness of all three persons in the trinity and we also share the belief of Jesus being fully divine and fully human. There is no reason to not consider their bread and wine as the body and blood of Christ. Also, for some people who live quite far from a Coptic church, some Coptic priests will encourage people to go to a Catholic church and receive communion. Why would they do that if we as a church dont believe in the sacrifice on their altar?

    You know, there was a story one time where some Coptic kid was playing abouna at his home and he prayed the institution narrative on some bread and grape juice (playing) and he saw the angel of the sacrifice present meaning the transformation had occurred. If the bread and wine transformed with this kid playing abouna, I am pretty sure it transforms on a Catholic altar where the congregation is assembled in unity, all believing in the work of the holy spirit on the altar. No reason for the sacrifice on their altar to not be true.

    PK




    [quote author=SuperMAN(BAM) link=topic=8175.msg104726#msg104726 date=1247799650]

    I dont like the use of the terms "Coptic Communion" and "Catholic Communion." The different breads and wine on each altar become the same body and blood of Christ, no difference.

    I also hate these terms... but when you say that the Catholic Communion becomes the body, is not really a right thing to say, because we are not in communion... maybe it does, maybe it doesn't become the body and blood... but in the end we excommunicated each other thus their communion to us is not the body nor the blood of Christ... actually we cant say even the eastern Orthodox...


    the word "communion" comes from  "communio" which means sharing in common... so if we are not sharing in common the faith... their communion is not believed in, and to us is mere wafers/bread and wine!


    and for the case of the friend that took communion, the priest should ask every new face if they are Coptic Orthodox, because its not you're friend's fault as mabsoota said, she didn't know better, and neither did your friend, its very important that the priest does that!

    akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    Your friend definitely made a major mistake in partaking of the Holy of Holies without being part of the Church...But who am I to judge? The catechumens of the old church were not even allowed to stay after the Liturgy of the Word was over. They "greeted one another with a holy kiss" and departed while only those who were baptized receieved the Body and Blood. Pope Shenouda also commented on this topic by referencing Matthew 7:6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    I am not sure myself that the RC communion is the same as the Orthodox, and I am sure that the Protestant communion is not. Nevertheless I do not believe that God denies grace to any who call on his name with true devotion. I probably believe that the situation of those faithful Christians outside Orthodoxy is somewhat similar to that of the catechumens. No-one would say that they were not Christians, but they had not yet completed the process of illumination, and the grace of God acted somewhat externally rather than internally.

    Yet I would not wish to be absolute in any judgement either. If the Western Church was still Orthodox in 500 AD when did it so cease to be Orthodox that it could be considered without the grace of the sacraments? I am not at all sure, nor even sure that God works in such a way. When I read the lives of many of the Western saints they do seem unbalanced in some degree - which I would interpret as a result of their being in a Christian context which was growing more and more unbalanced - but I cannot say that I do not find their faith in Christ to be Christian, nor can I deny that they life they live seems to be the life of Christ.

    If I lived on a small remote island and had been baptised into Orthodoxy, but then the priest of our community died and we had no contact with an Orthodox hierach to help us, over what period would our knowledge, understanding and experience of Orthodoxy so deteriorate that we were at last not Orthodox and without grace? Does God work like that? I am not sure I believe he does. It seems to me that he responds to our longing for him in the situation in which we find ourselves.

    I might well consider that as Roman Catholicism fell away from the Apostolic faith it became harder to be Orthodox within it, and I might believe that there are areas of non-Orthodoxy within Roman Catholicism which work against the faithful being fully saved - made whole - but it seems to me that it is possible to be Orthodox within Roman Catholicism as far as it allows. This does not seem to me to require that I admit the Roman Catholic Church is Orthodox. I could produce a long list of things which I think are deficient, but someone who is truly faithful will surely find Christ and wholeness in Roman Catholicism.

    It might be harder in Protestantism. And of course there are a great variety of Protestantisms. I always think of my own background in Evangelicalism, which still preserves a basic Trinitarian and Christological foundation. But there are other Protestantisms which have rejected these or have damaged them. If salvation is not winning a lottery ticket, but is life in Christ, then I must say that there are godly men and women within Protestantism who know Christ and are being formed by him. I do think their lives and their salvation - their becoming spiritually whole - are limited even more by their context than in Roman Catholicism. I do also think that they lack the sacramental graces which are necessary to make great progress in the spiritual life - I know this through my own experience and the experience of many other Protestants who have become Orthodox. But I cannot say that they do not know Christ and are not known by him. Indeed I am more confident in considering faithful Protestants to be in a similar situation to Orthodox catechumens.

    We must be careful not to consider salvation as being 'getting into heaven'. It is life in Christ and it begins now or it does not begin at all. If we ask 'Does God respond to those who turn to him in faith and hope and who are outside the bounds of formal Orthodoxy?' then I must answer 'Yes!'. Not least because he responded to me and gave me a measure of life which was fulfilled in my entrance into Orthodoxy, but which was a true life nonetheless before I was formally Orthodox.

    We must also be careful not to think of Orthodoxy in denominational terms. Orthodoxy means Christianity, nothing more nor less. Therefore, it seems to me, that wherever there is true Christianity there is some measure of the Orthodox life. Indeed I would say that all true Christianity, wherever it is found, is a sign of the presence of the Orthodox Church. This does not mean that I want to say 'Methodism is the same as Orthodoxy', but I do believe that where a member of a Methodist community experiences true Christianity for themselves the Orthodox Church is found there, though certainly in a provisional sense, and is perhaps comparable to a community of catechumens.

    We must not consider that because we are Orthodox we are saved. We are always being saved, being made whole and healthy. And it may well be that we reject the grace God offers us, harden our hearts, and cease to be being saved. The Bible makes it clear that this is a more dangerous situation to be in than to be in a state of some ignorance and yet seek after the light and life of Christ. Our baptism does not save us on its own - rather it places us in a situation to receive healing and wholeness - it is perseverance and growth in Christ which saves us - makes us whole. The one who perseveres without the fulness of the grace which is poured upon us will surely be commended by God, who will provide all that is necessary for that persons salvation, as he has for us. The canons of the Church are there to warn us not to wander away, they are not there to make absolute judgements about those outside the formal bounds of our communion.

    May we seek God more, much more. And may those who are outside our family find him as they seek for him.

    Father Peter
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