Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
tasbeha trouble
Okay so let me paint the picture for you, one of the churches deacons prays tasbeha in the small room of the saints, and it is only him and his son except when he gets to the third or forth hos. At that time me and my friend who LOVE tasbeha come and try to pray for the remaining time but we don't feel in "the mood" of tasbeha. So me and him said okay we will wait untill he is done and go into the church itself and pray it. Near the end of Ten Theino he comes and stops us and said "who told you guys to do tasbeha?" but not in a argumentative or threatening way. I tell him "nobody told us we just came to do tasbeha because we had SAT classes downstairs". So he insists that we have no need to do tasbeha because he already prayed it. So i say "okay uncle sorry" and i leave, mean while my friend insists to him that we stay and continue our prayer because it is not wrong at all, and he sits for maybe 2 minutes arguing with the deacon. He soon gets fed up and says something in Arabic that i couldn't understand because he said it fast lol, And my friend says come lets finish, but i said no because he told us not to do it.
MY QUESTIONS:-Is it wrong that we prayed tasbeha IN ANOTHER ALTER? if it is wrong please provide me with an explanation of why it is wrong.
MY QUESTIONS:-Is it wrong that we prayed tasbeha IN ANOTHER ALTER? if it is wrong please provide me with an explanation of why it is wrong.
Comments
As your question is more of a ritual question rather than circumstantial, I can have a go answering, and would like to hear opinions of others.
I think it is not ritually correct to pray the praises twice even in two different altars. My reason being is there is only one vespers, only one matins, even if the church holds more than one Liturgy as does happen every Friday in some churches in Egypt (maybe most or even all).
Midnight chants have no "mood". It is good that you strive to be there as soon as your Saturday class finishes, but you just have to go by the leader's rhythm, and tempo. If he and his son are so used to it, that you don't feel some kind of spirituality, then the good news is: we all had this experience. The bad news though is that you have to put up with that :). When the deacon notices that you are keen and insistent on attending always, he may come up with an idea out of respect for you and your friend, and maybe chant with his son one verse and let you reply...
Waiting to hear your opinions
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Okay so let me paint the picture for you, one of the churches deacons prays tasbeha in the small room of the saints, and it is only him and his son except when he gets to the third or forth hos. At that time me and my friend who LOVE tasbeha come and try to pray for the remaining time but we don't feel in "the mood" of tasbeha. So me and him said okay we will wait untill he is done and go into the church itself and pray it. Near the end of Ten Theino he comes and stops us and said "who told you guys to do tasbeha?" but not in a argumentative or threatening way. I tell him "nobody told us we just came to do tasbeha because we had SAT classes downstairs". So he insists that we have no need to do tasbeha because he already prayed it. So i say "okay uncle sorry" and i leave, mean while my friend insists to him that we stay and continue our prayer because it is not wrong at all, and he sits for maybe 2 minutes arguing with the deacon. He soon gets fed up and says something in Arabic that i couldn't understand because he said it fast lol, And my friend says come lets finish, but i said no because he told us not to do it.
MY QUESTIONS:-Is it wrong that we prayed tasbeha IN ANOTHER ALTER? if it is wrong please provide me with an explanation of why it is wrong.
it's hard to use the word wrong here....
I would of said the same thing that the older deacon said. "There is just no need." if you missed it, khalas. there are more in other days. if you really want to pray, as in PRAY, it does not have to be with tasbeha.
the best example i would use is when i was in St Mosses monastery last winter, i was with a big group on a retreat that there used to be 2 liturgies, one for the monks in the small church, and one for us in the big church. despite the liturgy, the monks, and us (meaning everyone in the monastery) prayed ONE TASBEHA in the big church. also when we did 7 & 4 on saturday, we did ONE during the whole night and we actually just prayed one liturgy all together with the monks.
I personally do not agree with the statement "there is no need" because as we all know God does not NEED us to praise him but we are the ones who are in need; just like St. Gregory says, "You had no need of my servitude. Rather, it was me who was in need of Your lordship".
I do, however, think that out of respect for the elder in your Church you should listen to him.
pray for my weakness
My situation on the other hand is i have to ask and beg the deacons to do tasbeha, LOL.
I will pray for this matter,
May God strengthen us all
I am not sure of the Church's stance on this issue; but, in my opinion i don't see why it would be a problem to do tasbeha more than once.
I personally do not agree with the statement "there is no need" because as we all know God does not NEED us to praise him but we are the ones who are in need; just like St. Gregory says, "You had no need of my servitude. Rather, it was me who was in need of Your lordship".
well...good point. but then let me ask you this, does praising God have to be in church, on the altar, in tasbeha where everyone can see?!.......it's like what i and ophadece said....if you really, really want to pray, you don't NEED tasbeha.
also i don't see why saying "there is no need to" doesn't satisfy you. i would agree with you if the tasbeha was NOT done. but it was done and they were just late for it. they missed the part they "enjoy" ... ok. khalas. next time they can be there for that part. it's not gonna be the end of the world where this is the last tasbeha they might ever do!!!!
My opinion though in your situation is first to talk to the priest. If u get there by the third hoos every week, its a matter of 20-25 min...maybe they could change the schedule...thats the whole point of the tasbeha in church to have a brotherly prayer...where more than 2 or 3 are gathered in Christ's name! However, in the end, i think it's just best to ask the priest.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=8198.msg104891#msg104891 date=1248387466]
I am not sure of the Church's stance on this issue; but, in my opinion i don't see why it would be a problem to do tasbeha more than once.
I personally do not agree with the statement "there is no need" because as we all know God does not NEED us to praise him but we are the ones who are in need; just like St. Gregory says, "You had no need of my servitude. Rather, it was me who was in need of Your lordship".
well...good point. but then let me ask you this, does praising God have to be in church, on the altar, in tasbeha where everyone can see?!.......it's like what i and ophadece said....if you really, really want to pray, you don't NEED tasbeha.
also i don't see why saying "there is no need to" doesn't satisfy you. i would agree with you if the tasbeha was NOT done. but it was done and they were just late for it. they missed the part they "enjoy" ... ok. khalas. next time they can be there for that part. it's not gonna be the end of the world where this is the last tasbeha they might ever do!!!!
Guys,
I must say I am disappointed. I thought you of all people would know the special longing a person has for the tasbeha that nothing else can fill. We wait for it every week--once a week is hardly enough. The week I miss tasbeha is like a week I miss medical treatment. Tasbeha has a beautiful effect on the spirit and I agree with jshouk that noone should be deprived of it. With tasbeha, we participate in heaven on earth-- you can really get the same feeling by just regular prayer-- unless you're a huge saint or something.
Pray for my weakness.
Sorry guys, but how is praying tasbeha twice wrong? In fact, monks have to pray tasbeha all together and then in their own cells also. Actually, tasbeha is not even obligatory for the liturgy...! Personally, tasbeha is just another form of agpeya, prayer to be digged deaper into! Tasbeha is a beautiful prayer, we shouldnt be prived from praying it because someone did...simply makes no sense to me...
My opinion though in your situation is first to talk to the priest. If u get there by the third hoos every week, its a matter of 20-25 min...maybe they could change the schedule...thats the whole point of the tasbeha in church to have a brotherly prayer...where more than 2 or 3 are gathered in Christ's name! However, in the end, i think it's just best to ask the priest.
well that's also a good point. and i was going to say that for monks they mostly do tasbeha twice (not necessarily though). BUT that would of confused everything for the sake of this topic. the question is to pray in the same church more then ONCE. the monks do ONE tasbeha in the MAIN church of the monastery despite how many altars or churches they have.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8198.msg104900#msg104900 date=1248392274]
[quote author=the_least link=topic=8198.msg104891#msg104891 date=1248387466]
I am not sure of the Church's stance on this issue; but, in my opinion i don't see why it would be a problem to do tasbeha more than once.
I personally do not agree with the statement "there is no need" because as we all know God does not NEED us to praise him but we are the ones who are in need; just like St. Gregory says, "You had no need of my servitude. Rather, it was me who was in need of Your lordship".
well...good point. but then let me ask you this, does praising God have to be in church, on the altar, in tasbeha where everyone can see?!.......it's like what i and ophadece said....if you really, really want to pray, you don't NEED tasbeha.
also i don't see why saying "there is no need to" doesn't satisfy you. i would agree with you if the tasbeha was NOT done. but it was done and they were just late for it. they missed the part they "enjoy" ... ok. khalas. next time they can be there for that part. it's not gonna be the end of the world where this is the last tasbeha they might ever do!!!!
Guys,
I must say I am disappointed. I thought you of all people would know the special longing a person has for the tasbeha that nothing else can fill. We wait for it every week--once a week is hardly enough. The week I miss tasbeha is like a week I miss medical treatment. Tasbeha has a beautiful effect on the spirit and I agree with jshouk that noone should be deprived of it. With tasbeha, we participate in heaven on earth-- you can really get the same feeling by just regular prayer-- unless you're a huge saint or something.
Pray for my weakness.
for as much as i am happy to hear that......having to much of one thing and being controlled by it is not right. the best example i can use is the story of the monk who LOVED praying. he prayed all the time. he started skipping things TO PRAY. his father of confession directed him to slow down on prayer and do more work and more of the other things that monks must do. he refused and kept praying.......to the point that he thought his foc was "jealous" from him because he knows how to pray and does it better. then at one time, being full of pride of course, he listened to a call from a deman where he was told to go to this place that Jesus may meet him because of his great zeal for prayer. he did and he became part of a huge explosion, the result of him fully submitting to the devils call.
so yeah. there must be limits to anyone's enjoyments. also, i go crazy with loving things more then they deserve. some times that love just turns into a unique routine that we just do EVEN as we might think it benefits us. we kind of take the easy way out of our life on earth.
So in the end it comes back to the father of confession.
it doesn't have to do with any father of confession. that story was just listed to make a point. and that point is not that argument you are holding jshouk. you sound like you are condemning the guy who prayed tasbeha for a mistake he did. i am sure that's not what you meant. the guy didn't do anything wrong. he did tasbeha and i am sure he would of welcomed anyone to pray with him. it's not like the guy did tasbeha ALONE on purpose and then let no one else do tasbeha! nope. there is noo differnce if tasbeha twice in a row or with some time differnce. tasbeha is the night of the liturgy you can't go do another tasbeha 3 hours latter and tell that is acceptable....
it's all about structure. and that's how it works in our church. let's not feed our desires much even if they mean everything good.
1- Tasbeha is prayed after the midnight hour, and so I agree that u wont be praying tasbeha an hour after liturgy.
2- If tasbeha was prayed in church in its regular hours and a bunch of people for example are held up in weekly meetings, and come at the end. Why would it be wrong for those people to pray tasbeha?
3- In my opinion all your prayers must be guided by your father of confession. Thats how monks work with their prayers. Plus, nothing stops you from praying tasbeha at home.
4- The reason why I argue for point number 2 is that although u can pray tasbeha at home everyday, you do not get the blessings of praying with more people. If tasbeha can be done at home, why cant tasbeha be done in the same church twice? There is absolutely no reason, unless u convince me otherwise lol :D
5- Praying with your friends is awesome!! :) So where else would we meet but church to pray? (dont say a house lol)
lol we clearly both disagree with each other. Here's how I see it:
1- Tasbeha is prayed after the midnight hour, and so I agree that u wont be praying tasbeha an hour after liturgy.
ok simple answer. because tasbeha is done once in every church. the same reason and best example i gave before that all the monks do ONE tasbeha in the whole monastery despite their OWN prayers and duties. that's why it's "mish mazboot" as the pope may say to do another tasbeha. it wouldn't be wrong but then again, it wouldn't be right. you are right. can't speak against this. BUT that's for your OWN prayers not the general liturgical assemblies in our churches which tasbeha is part of. if one father of confession told one of his children to not pray tasbeha today and do service, do they stop tasbeha in the church and not do it because of that one person? of course not. everything goes normally until despite of one person's life. i am not saying fully disregard that person (that would be wrong). but there are things that are very private for each of us and there are general things that we are all part of. we have to differentiate. exactly. but i don't know if it would feel the same way. because church is not home. it's as simple as that. i hold my answer for number 3 here to. there are specific things to do in differnt places and in differnt cases....mish kolo salata keda!!! ::) in many other places. trust. you can find some place and do tasbeha. i HAVE experience....in fact a really good one i can never forget.
minagir, I am not sure if I know what you aim to establish by bringing up this story. One of the lessons to be learned from this story is to listen to your FOC and obey him because you never know when you could be slipping and not knowing it. Also, this story does not signify that praying too much is a sin or is bad but rather it can become an obstacle if you allow it to take the time that is needed for other things. For example, if as a student i spend ALL my time praying and reading the Bible and serving non-stop and neglect my school work and fail then these things become an obstacle. Also the third moral of this story is discernment. This monk could not discern if the thought that came to him to go this place or the thought that he can pray better than his FOC is from the God or the devil and he could not tell that his FOC's advice is obviously God's voice. This story teaches obedience, balance and discernment.
Now, concerning what we are discussing on this forum with deaconmark's situation the only moral from the story that I think fits into this situation is obedience. It is important to be obedient to older deacons. As for balance and discernment I do not see how they could be lacking them if they want to do tasbeha again after someone already did it.
minagir, as for what you mentioned with all the monks doing one tasbeha regardless of their own prayers and duties, i think this is a matter of unity. God likes to see His children in unity; however, i don't think it would be WRONG to do it twice. I think tasbeha is not as serious as the Liturgy in terms of rules such as "only one liturgy can be prayed on the altar in a day".
[quote author=minagir link=topic=8198.msg104900#msg104900 date=1248392274]
[quote author=the_least link=topic=8198.msg104891#msg104891 date=1248387466]
I am not sure of the Church's stance on this issue; but, in my opinion i don't see why it would be a problem to do tasbeha more than once.
I personally do not agree with the statement "there is no need" because as we all know God does not NEED us to praise him but we are the ones who are in need; just like St. Gregory says, "You had no need of my servitude. Rather, it was me who was in need of Your lordship".
well...good point. but then let me ask you this, does praising God have to be in church, on the altar, in tasbeha where everyone can see?!.......it's like what i and ophadece said....if you really, really want to pray, you don't NEED tasbeha.
also i don't see why saying "there is no need to" doesn't satisfy you. i would agree with you if the tasbeha was NOT done. but it was done and they were just late for it. they missed the part they "enjoy" ... ok. khalas. next time they can be there for that part. it's not gonna be the end of the world where this is the last tasbeha they might ever do!!!!
If you claim that there is no need then there was never a need, so why would anyone EVER do tasbeha in the first place? God certainly doesn't need it, and now you claim that we don't need it, so why would it even be part of our liturgical practice?
Thus, there is a need?
pray for my weakness
jshouk and user00, you said what was on my mind
minagir, I am not sure if I know what you aim to establish by bringing up this story. One of the lessons to be learned from this story is to listen to your FOC and obey him because you never know when you could be slipping and not knowing it. Also, this story does not signify that praying too much is a sin or is bad but rather it can become an obstacle if you allow it to take the time that is needed for other things. For example, if as a student i spend ALL my time praying and reading the Bible and serving non-stop and neglect my school work and fail then these things become an obstacle. Also the third moral of this story is discernment. This monk could not discern if the thought that came to him to go this place or the thought that he can pray better than his FOC is from the God or the devil and he could not tell that his FOC's advice is obviously God's voice. This story teaches obedience, balance and discernment.
well great. you get the story. but it was only there to answer user00 argument....that's it. the idea that user00 was proposing is loving all us loving tasbeha so much that he was surprised when we said it's not right. where i thought to list the monk story to show how we must control ourselves against what must happen. when i first replyed to this post i said: "[quote author=minagir link=topic=8198.msg104888#msg104888 date=1248381533]it's hard to use the word wrong here...."
great. we got to the unity part. so most of the things we do with each other in church are for unity wherefore we have a special litany in church "the litany of the assemblies." so there is no differnce between what the monks do in there monastery and our world. the only differnce is that their monastery is there world where they all unite in tasbeha and many other liturgical services. in our world, the unity is similar where we and the rest of the congregation is there.
so i don't see your problem or argument against that...
and that is exactly what i am saying. it's not wrong but it's not right in the same time. Saint Paul clearlly says:
1 Co 6:12
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. i fully disagree with this statement. tasbeha is part of the liturgy. i am sure you know that and i don't understand why would you skip that keda!!! what ever we do from vespers praise is part of the liturgy. there can be "exceptions" on skipping them in some churches and those exceptions are accepted for many purposes. but that's it. we have to differentiate. not doing tasbeha at all is a huge topic that i will not get into right now. i can ask you the same question about why we must not pray a liturgy on the same altar within 9 hours. GOD needs our hearts where our actions and faith together come out of. Tasbeha will not get me into heaven. the consequence of be being with God into tasbeha is what might help. but then we have to remember the place and the rules of the church. we can't just go keda do our own thing when we must not. i say it again we have to differentiate between everything in our lives. the time for this and that, private and public, faith and works...etc; the many aspects of our lives. it's all a Christian life alright, but it must we lives rightly. thus we need to "differentiate" :)
Please countine to add more opinions because I am not only learning but benifiting God bless all those who helped me
It was me who said there was no "mood" for tasbeha, not minagir. Mina doesn't need another member to keep insulting him for things mistakenly referred to him (sorry Mina, I just had to say it :D)
I completely agree with you that praying the tasbeha you feel heaven on earth, but please be careful: there are some pitfalls that the evil one may fell us into: 1) not only tasbeha should make you feel like this, but every service of the liturgy (including vespers and matins of course); 2) what happens if you are not feeling in the "mood"? The answer should be that we should press on ourselves to go and attend either tasbeha, or the Liturgy or whatever, and for that matter if we are deacons, to serve as deacons even though we feel sleepy, or not well-prepared, but try our best to get the benefit even though we don't feel like it; 3) and last, lukewarmness is a famous weapon of the evil one - not feeling in the "mood" may spoil every good thing one tries to do in their life. God actually encourages us to pray all the time (and He pointed out to the changing times; there is a time for some things, and there is a time for others). Hope this is ok
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Now I dont want someone to come and tell me that you can not pray liturgy more than one a day on the same alter because that would be completely different due to the idea of the body and blood etc.. However Tasbeha I believe could be prayed as many times as you would like since it is a praise. I read someones post that talked about the monasteries, well im with you that in St. Moses Abbey they pray together but in other monasteries actually some of the monks prefer doing the Tasbeha in their cells, you cant tell me they are mistaken right. They can do this because Tasbeha is a prayer that could be said by any laymen just like the agpeya. It is a PRAYER
let's say i was in the hospital for a long time and i came out saturday night and arrived to church just when tasbeha finished and just as you were walking out. And i and my friends went and started doing it again. Would you tell me i can't do it because "THERE IS NO NEED" or because "WE MUST BE IN UNITY" ???
but ya habibi it was out of my hands ....
I am not saying that it's always normal to to tasbeha more than once, but rather i am saying that if someone was held up for whatever reason, I don't see a problem at all in doing tasbeha again. You should try to all do one tasbeha to be in unity but if someone can't make it he should not be hindered from praying it again.
pray for my weakness
are you kidding me?! if tasbeha in the church started at whatever time, and you went late... finish it with them... if they are done... you and your friend wanted to start it from the beginning its also fine... tasbeha is the midnight prayer, there is no problem... but remember you two are young, and I'm sure people are waiting to close the doors for the church, so you have to be considerate for the whole church!
the best way to go about it... is pray tasbeha at your house... zaman I didn't like attending tasbeha at church becasue people were too slow... I ended up going to asheya... then go home and do the midnight prayer in my room, if my friend wanted to come with me, i would have them come and pray with me... and for all the tasbeha lovers who cant get enough tasbeha, if you are at your house you are not limited to when to have tasbeha, you can have it daily if you want to... just don't forget to pray personal prayers, and your agpeya prayers...
but if tasbeha is going to cause problems, and stumble somebody, do not do it in the church at ALL!!!
just do it at home, and when God sees you wanting whats right, He will grant you the best!!!
akhadna el barak... neshkor Allah!
Pray for me