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Attending a Coptic Orthodox Church
I am planning on attending a Coptic Orthodox Church this coming Sunday. I have attended a Greek Orthodox Church before but never a Coptic Orthodox. The closest Coptic Orthodox Church in my area is about an hours drive away but I am more than willing to make the drive if, as I am seeming to find, the Coptic Orthodox Church is the church of the early church fathers.
With this in mind, can any of you give me tips or advice for preparing and participating in the divine liturgy? I come from a Protestant background and am new to any liturgy.
Thanks
Justin
With this in mind, can any of you give me tips or advice for preparing and participating in the divine liturgy? I come from a Protestant background and am new to any liturgy.
Thanks
Justin
Comments
I am planning on attending a Coptic Orthodox Church this coming Sunday. I have attended a Greek Orthodox Church before but never a Coptic Orthodox. The closest Coptic Orthodox Church in my area is about an hours drive away but I am more than willing to make the drive if, as I am seeming to find, the Coptic Orthodox Church is the church of the early church fathers.
With this in mind, can any of you give me tips or advice for preparing and participating in the divine liturgy? I come from a Protestant background and am new to any liturgy.
Thanks
Justin
make sure you sit in the left side, the men's side.
pay attention to everything. i would also contact someone of the specific church you are going to. someone might lead you during the liturgy and what is happening. it can be a little long thoo, especially on a sunday.
- you remember your sins
- pray before coming, that the Lord open your eyes to the Liturgy
- you read about our understanding of Mystery- read John 6:22-71, John 15, Matt 26:20, 26-29, Mark 4:22-25. Jn 13:1-38.
- That you remember to give thanks to God- Eucharist means "Thanksgiving"
- Understand the work of Salvation of Jesus Christ
- when following the Liturgy, you read the things the Priest says inaudibly (they sometimes explain things)
- if things get to much, just stand in awe and reverence, and meditate on God's Power, and worship Him
Understanding is important for appreciation, but real love and living in the liturgy, is giving up yourself to the Lord. When the Lord says "lift up your hearts", that you truly say "We have them with the Lord".
Also I sometimes gaze around, and see the icons, and I feel the warmth of such a cloud of witnesses- and that they are praying for me, and that we are together as One Church worshiping the Lord.
I know you are not Orthodox, but you might benefit from listening to what I am listening to about the Liturgy:
http://www.smsv.ca/audio_date.shtml
In the above link, look up those titled "Explaining the Liturgy"
http://old.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=68&Itemid=26
This is for those of us Orthodox, who don't live the Liturgy as we supposed to. You might gain some perspectives to :)
I realy hope I helped. haha. We are thinking about you mate, and I hope that you can see that there is more than what meets the eyes- and I hope we all can see that!
so u basically ....ah i dont know how to describe greeting someone with a holy kiss, i wonder if they do it in the greet orthodox church
One is supposed to say"Christ is in the midst of us", and the other reply; "He is and will be".
Here is an excerpt from http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/liturgy/liturgy_of_st_basil.pdf explaining this practice.
This kiss of peace, which is still exchanged in the Coptic Church,
was used from the apostolic era. They used to kiss one another,
men kissed men, women kissed women, saying; "Christ is in the
midst of us", and the other reply; "He is and will be"
We cannot enjoy reconciliation with God in Jesus Christ unless
we have peace one another. The Lord Jesus said; " If you are
offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your
brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front
of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come
and offer your gift. (Matt5:23-24). (NIV)
By this kiss, the Congregation declare that they wish to be one
family in Jesus Christ, and every one is forgiving one another. By
this way, they can attain the forgiveness for their sins, as Jesus
promised; "For if you forgive men when they sin against you,
your heavenly Father will also forgive you". (Matt6:14) (NIV)
i like what clay says 'if things get too much' the coptic service is quite stimulating, usually 2 things going on at once plus lots of things to look at, so if you get a bit lost, just ask God "Lord what is it you want me to learn?'
all the above tips are great, here are some more...
the only time you have to stand up is during the reading of the gospel, everything else is more flexible, you will see some sitting and some standing and some kneeling etc.
there are times when the priest(s) and deacons kneel, just follow, this means they are kneeling in worship to God.
also it is normal to stand up when the priest comes into the congregation shaking the incense. this is because you are honouring his prayers for you. incense is always used in conjunction with prayer.
don't sit too far towards the back on the mens' side. there are usually big gaps on the mens side as the men get up to serve as subdeacons etc at the altar, so you will see more if you fill a gap and sit closer to the front.
oh, and when the priest gives out the antidoron (blessed bread) at the end of the service, you shouldn't bite your bit like a sandwich, but break off a small piece each time to put in your mouth, that way if someone is late in coming for the bread you can give him a bit of your bread. this is a cultural thing to remind us to share with others. usually you don't need to share your bread as everyone has some, but no-one bites it directly, just in case.
if you can, sit next to someone who doesn't look too lost and tell them you are new and ask if they mind you asking a few questions during the service. on your way in, look to see if there are any service books, you can then flick through them if you are lost.
you don't have too arrive on time (you will see people entering continuously during the first hour of the service) but please don't rush off, it is normal for people to have at least a cup of tea together after, and sometimes food. in big churches, they sell sandwiches, so bring a little change, just in case. in my church we start prayers at 9.45, then liturgy at 10.30, most people arrive by 11/11.30, communion is around 12.30 and most stay till at least 13.30 and eat, chat, pray etc, then about half of us have Bible study from 2.30 till 3.30 (timings are always approximate, you will get used to this!) and a few of us stay chatting till about 4. not every church has Bible study after the mass, but it is a great chance to learn more and ask questions if they do.
there is so much more to say but don't want to overload u at this stage! pls feel free to ask us all more questions!
we all want to know!
God bless u
:)
BUT...I am going this Sunday and will give an update on my experience. In the mean time I have been listening to sermons by Abouna Bishoy Andrawes at St Mark's Coptic Church in Washington, DC. I truly enjoy listening to him and Abouna Messeh.
i have a sermon from abouna bishoy andrawes i downloaded from here, about elijah. really good solid teaching.
keep listening, we await your report, partly so we can learn more about how to reach out to people who are not used to our style of church
:)
Fortunately I got their right as Divine Liturgy began and there were only a few people there so I was able to get a seat where I could see all that was taking place at the altar without getting in the way of others. It so happens that this Sunday H.G. Bishop Michael, the newly appointed Bishop of the Mid-Atlantic States in the US, was visiting (which was a true blessing to be a part of). I first met a short, elderly man named Ramses who approached me and asked me a couple of questions in Arabic and I had to convey to him that I only spoke English. He then proceeded to play a joke on me and tell me he was the oldest man at that church because he was 100 years old. After realizing I fell for his joke he admitted he was only 78 and he wanted to know my name and were I was from. Later in the service he took down my name and phone number and had the congregation welcome me during the announcements.
As for the service itself it was very beautiful and God-centered. The liturgy constantly calls one to focus upon the Triune God and how we must seek his mercy and forgiveness. I was, for the most part, aware of what would take place since I had watched the services of St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church in Washington, DC. H.G. Bishop Michael gave a sermon on the woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears. After communion, I think because this was his first visit to the church as a bishop, H.G. Bishop Michael blessed the congregation with holy water. Although the service lasted about 4 hours it was not that hard to pay attention. However I do not know if this was because everything was new to me and I wanted to take it all in or if this would be the same experience I would have each time? Does church service, for some of you, become routine and if so how do you keep from allowing this and focusing each Sunday?
Unfortunately I did not get to meet with the priest, Abouna Misaeil, because I had a family gathering to attend and I was already late. I am really interested in hearing Abouna Misaeil perform the liturgy and give the sermon and so I am going to attend next Sunday. After next Sunday he will be in Egypt for two weeks and will have priests from Charlotte, NC and Virginia fill in until he returns.
If any of you have any questions you would like to ask an "outsider" I will be more than glad to share my experience. Overall I truly enjoyed my time this morning and wish that the church was closer so that I could attend Vespers and Midnight prayers and Confession.
Here is a link to the church website: www.stmarync.org
They had an older website but they are moving to this one so there is not much information there yet.
well done! ('mabrook' in arabic, you will probably pick up a few words if you want to or not!)
the reason the bishop (i think) did the holy water blessing is that there are some things the priests don't do if there's a bishop there. in many cultures it's rude to do your job in front of someone 'senior' who, by default, 'does it better' than you. that's my observation based on how liturgy works in east european, asian and some african cultures.
rameses sounds hillarious! we have someone like him in my church, he keeps asking if i'm available for marriage and why i mind the 30 year age gap ;)
i also find i still pay attention in church. in the words of a coptic group on facebook 'you know you're coptic if you're trying to fall asleep in church but abouna seems to be addressing you directly!'
i like the fact you were checking to see if God was the centre of service. saint james tells us to 'discern the spirits', this is important on your spiritual journey as you look for a fuller experience of God. the experience of many Christians from other churches who have turned to orthodoxy is that that they were fully satisfied. i'm no poet so i can't describe it better and hope you understand me. interestingly i had a similar experience, while in the czech republic of visiting a russian orthodox church, it felt just like my church, although i didn't understand the language and the liturgy is ordered differently.
we in the orthodox churches need to know better how to share this in a way that people outside will understand, especially those who know nothing of God, so please keep sharing with us, including anything you think may hinder people's understanding or be a cultural barrier. i, for my part, don't think that churches should try to be like the prevailing culture, with a bit of 'God' thrown in; church should be different (love, peace, repentance and joy are not always part of the prevailing culture), but it should be understandable and interesting.
keep up the good work :)
btw, 'mabsoota' means 'happy' in arabic (esp egyptian dialect), the male equivalent is 'mabsoot'.
However I do not know if this was because everything was new to me and I wanted to take it all in or if this would be the same experience I would have each time? Does church service, for some of you, become routine and if so how do you keep from allowing this and focusing each Sunday?
It's good to hear about your visit. I just wanted to comment about what you said above.
First, sunday is the day of the Lord. it is for Him and nothing better than spending it with Him.
The Divine Liturgy is a great liturgical service that is just hard to speak about. Nothing that i can say here on this forum can be fitting with the liturgy. Of course this is because of the Mystery of the holy communion.
"The liturgy, in general, may be the same every day, but we, being part of it, come out not the same," one father have told me before.
The liturgy, going in specifics, is not really the same, atleast for us deacons. since deacons are more responsible for leading the people, especially with chanting the hymns, we know that there are many parts of the liturgy that change based on the day--being a Lord's feast, a saint's feast, a fast, special occasions.
for example, something that i recently learned is that the original context of crowing ceremony of couple is between matins and the procession of the Lamb. of course they must be fasting because their union (within the ceremony) is perfected by the communing from the holy Mysteries. So that specific liturgy would have special readings only for this occasion (the Pauline, Catholic, the Acts, the Psalm & Gospel).
So this was just a small glimpse of the liturgy rites. hehe.....you met Emmanuel among us....who else would you want to meet?! ;-)
really great to hear your experience, justin :)
well done! ('mabrook' in arabic, you will probably pick up a few words if you want to or not!)
the reason the bishop (i think) did the holy water blessing is that there are some things the priests don't do if there's a bishop there. in many cultures it's rude to do your job in front of someone 'senior' who, by default, 'does it better' than you. that's my observation based on how liturgy works in east european, asian and some african cultures.
So the priests blesses the congregation with water during each divine liturgy?
This was actually one of the reasons why I am looking into the Coptic Orthodox Church. Protestantism, although it has its good qualities, seems so detached from the Early Church. There are faithful Protestant churches who preach the Word and hold to the Sacraments (although they are understood differently than by the Coptic Church) but a majority of Christianity in America has been chasing the culture so as to draw converts. In reality it repels people because they see through it and know that the real thing is better than a watered down Christian-version of secular culture. Yet the Orthodox Church forces one to submit to the Scriptures and the Christian faith and mold their life to the faith of the Gospels instead of vice versa.
Unfortunately I did not get to meet with the priest, Abouna Misaeil, because I had a family gathering to attend and I was already late.
hehe.....you met Emmanuel among us....who else would you want to meet?! ;-)
Unfortunately I cannot participate in communion because I am not a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church. It would have been great to have participated but we must respect the teachings of the Church and seek to partake of it worthily.
if minagir struggles to find the words to discuss the liturgy too, i feel a bit better ;)
[quote author=JustinWilliams link=topic=8330.msg106739#msg106739 date=1254799791]
This was actually one of the reasons why I am looking into the Coptic Orthodox Church. Protestantism, although it has its good qualities, seems so detached from the Early Church. There are faithful Protestant churches who preach the Word and hold to the Sacraments (although they are understood differently than by the Coptic Church) but a majority of Christianity in America has been chasing the culture so as to draw converts. In reality it repels people because they see through it and know that the real thing is better than a watered down Christian-version of secular culture. Yet the Orthodox Church forces one to submit to the Scriptures and the Christian faith and mold their life to the faith of the Gospels instead of vice versa.
Dear brother, you are nearly there. and during the waiting time, God builds your faith and patience. many (if not all) countries share these problems. the uk has a strong culture of the anglican church and the state being unacceptably linked, and this has resulted in anathema like bishops who are not sure if they believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, for example. the church has been horribly watered down. there are good bishops who insist on the truth of the gospel and the life-changing power of the Spirit of God, but they are labelled 'radical' and 'politically incorrect'. may God give them strength and wisdom. as a result, many people are joining the orthodox and catholic churches in the uk.
i spent 2 years deciding that I wanted to join the coptic church (i was protestant and had been a Christian for many years), then a year waiting for the right time (considering the views of those around me) to join. that was more than a year ago. now again, because of circumstances i am in, i no longer go each week, but when i do, it is all the more special. i do visit other churches in between times, and take this opportunity to talk to catholics and protestants about the orthodox church.
incidently, there are ongoing talks to find common ground between the catholics and the orthodox, and soon (if God wills) the oriental and eastern orthodox churches will agree to share common communion. in 1990, they agreed that they had all been mistaken when they split in 451 AD, so it is a matter of time, prayer and all of us renouncing our pride before we can share the Holy mysteries together.
may God guide us as we work towards learning more of Him
and for us as Coptic although some of the words in the liturgy are the same, we enjoy them every time and we get more meanings out of them each time
It is really hard to explain you have to experience this personally
God bless
Also I sometimes gaze around, and see the icons, and I feel the warmth of such a cloud of witnesses- and that they are praying for me, and that we are together as One Church worshiping the Lord.
I know you are not Orthodox, but you might benefit from listening to what I am listening to about the Liturgy:
http://www.smsv.ca/audio_date.shtml
In the above link, look up those titled "Explaining the Liturgy"
http://old.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=68&Itemid=26
This is for those of us Orthodox, who don't live the Liturgy as we supposed to. You might gain some perspectives to :)
I realy hope I helped. haha. We are thinking about you mate, and I hope that you can see that there is more than what meets the eyes- and I hope we all can see that!
I had a chance to listen to Abouna Messeh's liturgy series after visiting this past Sunday and they were very helpful. The Orthodox liturgy is full of symbolism and it is clear that the point is to transport the believer from this world into the heaven and join with those who have gone before us as we worship God in fear and adoration. It seems to be a foretaste of what is to come as Paul states in Ephesians 2:4-6 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus".
You will love going to a Coptic Orhodox church. Read the history of the Coptic Church, and you will find out that we are the correct religion to follow. Its worth everything, even a days drive. If you have like a routine, go every single Sunday. Trust me, and my bretheren that have answered you. Use this website to search and listen to the liturgy and youll know whats going to happen. This website is so great, i love it so much.